After rewatching breaking bad, its amazing how early the subtle dhifts in Walts morality actually happen

I think part of the magic is that we don't really know him in the beginning. Flashbacks to his life before the show make it clear that his ego has been his defining trait even before we are introduced to him. It was his ego that got him into the position of "chemistry teacher scraping by" in the first place, despite his far better qualifications. That also wasn't about the money. You could say that the Walter White we get to know in the beginning isn't the real him in the first place. He is someone with a wounded ego, that behaves like a festering tumor that is growing inside him.

According to Bryan Cranston, watching Jane die was the shift between "good guy doing bad things" and "bad guy".

Dry h****** set him on a bad path.

I think it’s much easier to spot on a rewatch and when you can binge it. Originally you were slowly pulled in. Week by week. It unraveled with much more subtlety due to the slow pace of waiting for episodes. IMO You almost lost your view of morality as he did.

I wrote him off as soon as the first gretchen and Elliot episode is over. He'd rather sell meth and ruin lives than swallow his pride and work for them.

I tried to watch it with my dad a couple years ago. After the second episode he goes "I don't really like Walt, he's a d***." So yeah, they established it pretty early. As to your question, one could argue for a number of "point of no return" moments, but to me, it was Walt's actions at the end of Crazy Handful of Nothin'. That adrenaline fueled scream in the car signaled that he was no longer content to just play the role of the dying father nobly suffering for his family, and had instead learned that that life on the edge was far more personally rewarding. He was all-in, and there was no way in hell he was going to go back.

I watched a YouTube video that explained how the meeting he had with Gretchen at the restaurant was the moment his transformation was complete, which is S2E6, and it convinced me. Everything that happens in the series stems from the "original sin" of Walt abandoning Gretchen both as a business partner and as a romantic partner, after which her and Elliot became successful, using what he claims was his work. The meeting is supposed to be about Gretchen telling Skylar about the money, but it escalates quickly, and she revisits this original sin, even though it had been some 20-plus years by that point. By this point, Walt had already progressed into a high-level meth manufacturer and become much more comfortable with lying to pretty much everyone, involving others in his criminal activities, and he had gone so far as to attack rival drug dealers, even killing one in Jesse's basement. He had almost fully transitioned into the Heisenberg persona he would be for the rest of the series, but the question still lingered about his unresolved feelings about Gretchen and her and Elliot's success. He talks like it's all about the company and the money they made, but it's just as much about Gretchen. The reason he left her and Gray Matter wasn't over a business disagreement. It was all because when he met her family and saw how wealthy they were, he couldn't cope with her not needing him to be her provider. Maybe he thought that's how love works. In the meeting, he even calls Gretchen "little rich girl." He never got over his feeling of inferiority from the fact Gretchen grew up with wealth. And he never confronted his distorted views on love and gender roles in relationships; he just found an "easier" wife for whom he could provide by simply being a school teacher. He couldn't have the wife he wanted, because wouldn't have been able to make her happy, since he's not wealthy. So he settled for Skylar and built a life with her, all the while a time bomb of resentment and wounded pride was lurking, and his cancer lit the fuse. So when Gretchen and Walt get to the topic of him leaving, instead of taking any responsibility for his actions, he puts the blame entirely on her, and when she says she feels sorry for him, he delivers the coldest, most spiteful *"F*** you"* in film and TV history. It was dripping with pure hate. And that was the moment that, when faced with the original decision that kicked off all of the events that would determine the course of his and Gretchen's lives, he couldn't find an ounce of humility, reflection, or accountability. Instead, he threw away any remaining connection to the "old Walt" and committed 100% to this new path that he had put himself on.

It's one of the best tv shows to rewatch when you get older, you see some amazing new details.

Yeah, the ego was there from episode one. He's already breaking bad before the drug stuff. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_msyHz8NSXE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_msyHz8NSXE)

It was never about the money or his family! That was just the "make it look OK" excuse. He was profoundly under-employed as a teacher, and needed to do something that made better use of his abilities as a chemist. And also it was just his middle finger back at the American sinking middle-class grind, and the petty bosses he was subject to, i.e. that car wash and at the high school. But I suppose there was something authentic about him wanting to leave his family with money when he died, as well. Anyone who loved that show was rooting for him, even though he sunk lower and lower as it went on. There may have been a way before it got to late to save himself, it's been awhile since i watched it (have seen it 3 times but not recently) but that wouldn't have made for a fantastic story, it would have been no story at all. This was a full-on tragedy, you don't see many of those these days.

In S 1, Walter White had already lost me, and I already despised him. 😂😂 I couldn't believe it when I found out that this wasn't the common reaction for most people, and that some even relate to him the most after finishing the series

One of the things that always drove me nuts about the fandom for this show was how it took so long for some people to realise Walt was doing this for himself. It was made entirely clear when he refused the offer from the Grey Matter guys that his ego was worth more than his or his family's safety.

I thought he was a bit of a shit from episode one. Ultimately he convinces himself that what he’s doing is for the good of his family, but it’s rooted in ego.

It's in episode 1. You just don't notice the first time around. When you start a rewatch and you watch how he interacts with everyone his ego comes across really clearly, and when he kicked the shit out of his sons bully? You can see how good that power makes him feel. On rewatch you see that Walt has always been his Heisenberg self, he's just buried it deep and taught himself how to fit in and not make noise. But once the cancer comes, his dark side wakes up.

At the end of the series you realize that Walter White doesn't actually go through a transformation. He was never Mr. Chips. We simply learn what kind of person he has been all along, he just needed an outlet for his ego and liar tendencies. If he never left Grey Matter, he'd likely be another out of touch billionaire exploiting people to make as much money as possible. He does that with his Meth Empire as it is

When Walt and Skyler take Walt Jr shopping, and a kid makes fun of Walt Jr’s disability and Walt f****** assaults the kid, that was the first steam I noticed leaking out. That was a pretty early episode IIRC. Edit: it’s the first episode

I liken watching Breaking Bad for the first time to being in an abusive relationship; because you are invested in Walter and his journey, you keep justifying his behavior to yourself, and the fact that it's a gradual descent makes it a frog in boiling water kind of situation. You're too caught up in it to notice how all the small pushes against the boundaries of morality are adding up. Meanwhile, anyone outside the "relationship", like someone giving it a second watch who knows where things are going, or probably someone that skipped the first 2 seasons for some reason and started with season 3, is looking at this situation from a more detached place and starts seeing red flags waaay earlier on.

Right away he was all mopey at his birthday party and was asking then about the ride-along with Hank. So well before any cancer diagnosis or anything it's already built the "unsatisfied-middle-aged-guy-looking-for-a-change" narrative. Not necessarily evil here, but the path starts basically immediately.

Honestly I believe it is in Season 1. The scene where he has gotten his Cancer diagnosis and the conversation leads to asking Grey Matter for help is the biggest indicator of his ego and narcissism. Remember, this isnt just a guy refusing to ask former friends for help. This is a father of a disabled/special son, with a new born on the way, and husband to a woman who is currently unable to work/work in her financial career due to her pregnancy. They are a family that is financially struggling before the diagnosis and that would likely become homeless if Walt died, especially after or during treatment. Walts rejection of asking for help from the richest people he knows, whom he knows feel guilty for past actions, and whom are fully willing to agree that he played a major role in their success, completely shows that he values his own self image over his own health and the well being of his family. That key trait of his starts in Season 1 and carries through until his 'fairwell' in the final season.

For me it's pretty early it's just after the episode "4 days out" In that episode Walt is confronted with his mortality in multiple ways and barely survives and gets all the money he says he ever wanted and makes peace with Jesse and says he is walking away. Then in the next episode he just gets bored with his old life very explicitly and changes his mind and decides he wants to deal meth again. It's only by introducing Gus and the Nazis and having them constantly threaten Walt that he retains any sympathy which is a contrivance of plot not character.

Didn’t he kill someone in episode 2? Lolz.

yea, you can see Walt liking the control pretty quick. for me the point of no return is jane’s death, that’s when he really crosses the line and doesn’t come back

I think the signs are there early. But I think the audience should be forgiven for not catching on as quickly as the signs started presenting themselves (and they were somewhat subtle in the beginning). Gilligan for all his genius was playing games with the audience and I believe he has admitted as much or at least he has said that he enjoyed seeing how evil he could make Walter before the audience turned on him. Gilligan presented this show under false pretenses that it was going to be a power crime fantasy. Male power fantasy if you really need to go there. It was never that. I think Skyler got a lot of hate that was undeserved because her character was realistically written, but if Gilligan hadn't been playing the Haha you aren't watching what you thought you were watching game.. then about 80% of that hate would never have materialized. Look, Im no genius television producers or showrunner, but it just makes sense that if you set up a character to be the protagonist and then slowly reveal he never was the protagonist (and really, who in Breaking Bad was?) then you really shouldn't then make fun of your audience for being confused about the trickery or taking the transition badly.

Takes about Walt’s morality are always interesting to me because I literally watched episode 1 and was like oh this guy is a resentful, vindictive piece of shit right from the start. Never understood the people that say he starts out decent or rootable I haven’t rewatched it since watching it the first time through during covid, though, and maybe it’s time to revisit

He was a total scumbag to his wife from the get go.

One reason that I Don’t think Walter had a real transformation is that, he Didn’t really transform.  He just became who he wished he had previously was after living the life he actaullly lived. .  Walking away from being a founder of the corporation bugged him a lot and he wasn’t going to give that up again.  That was pretty much there from the beginning.

He was always a piece of shit. It just got revealed more and more over time. They made a point first thing that his old friend from the startup offered to pay for his care.

I only watched the show after the fact but I of course had heard the talk of the transformation through the series but from the get go I always felt he was a POS and the fall wasn't really significant, guy just stopped pretending.

The subtle shifts, like when he's telling his class "chemistry is the study of change" or he's outlining specific steps of change... ...it's really not played for subtlety. He decides to become a criminal 15 minutes into the first episode. He's disposing of bodies by the second. He's not remorseful. He smokes a joint in victory.

They disovle a body in acid and have another guy chained up in the basement in season 1 episode 2.

For me, the first time I watched it, most of Walt's immoral acts seemed more like he was a moral guy, but there were measures he was taking because he got in too deep too quick and wanted to avoid getting caught. If his goal was to make enough money to pay for his medical bills and leave some for his family, getting jailed or killed was standing in the way, so it was "reasonable" (at least, "reasonable" from a TV show point of view) that he'd take certain steps to keep that from happening, and he could extricate himself from that life once that cloud was no longer over him. On rewatch, though, a lot of that seems more like he's fully transitioning into that life. It's been a year or so since I rewatched, but I distinctly remember his blowing up Tuco's place as a point where the rush of fully dispensing with any morality took over him.

You mean in the first episode where he decides to cook meth in an RV? That was my first hint maybe he wasn't such a great guy, but what do I know?

Walt was always a b**** from the start. A total weirdo liar and manipulator from the jump. His morality never really shifted much imo.

A lot of people remember this show through the prism of memes and misconceptions

he raped his wife in the 8th episode of the show.

I think noticing those in the beginning was one of the reasons this show was appealing to me I don’t want to root for anyone in this show other than Skylar to get out before she’s killed.

I can’t rewatch really anything. I know you have to watch “Breaking Bad” to understand “Better Call Saul” but I much preferred the latter. I just found in Bad that I could not stand any of Walter White’s family (bro-in-law cop excepted).

It's such a masterful show because the answer is not obvious. Maybe there's no right answer. I've concluded he was never a good guy doing bad things. He was always a bad guy living a life of frustration inside the veneer of a decent person. He just needed a catalyst to unleash what was always inside, and the cancer became that catalyst.

Re-Watching currently, I'd say the shift is when he asks Jesse to go kill/intimidate the meth head couple. Once he finds out they died he's excited about the view it's given them. So even if he wanted them to be intimidated, he clearly didn't care or have any sympathy for Jesse or the dead drug addict after the fact.

His transformation was complete when he said, "Say my name!"

In the pilot episode, he actually has the idea to use his chemistry expertise to make meth *before* he finds out about his cancer and the associated financial terror.

From a practical point of view, they had no idea how long this show would last so it was important to bring his character along quickly

rewatching it you catch how early hes doing the for the family thing while its really about pride. point of no return for me was when he started liking being the guy.

A great moment comes in Season 1 episode 5 when Elliott offers him a job at Grey Matter. Walt's face lights up and he seems overjoyed and we know especially later on how much missing out on Grey Matters success eats at Walt. But then Elliott mentions we have excellent health insurance. Walt's face immediately changes as he now views this offer as purely charity and he turns it down. Keep in mind we are in a point of the show where Walt could debatably turn away from the meth stuff and just view this is as a dumb isolated incident that no one needs to know about. He is not in too deep yet.

If you watch it knowing the basic premise, there's no subtlety. He chooses to make meth despite his former business partner being willing to pay for all his medical bills and rehire him in a cushy job. Everything is an attack on his ego. The only touching thing he ever really does is refuse to focus any of that bullshit onto his kids, even if I could see a man like him easily putting his son's disability into the bucket of "personal affronts against him by the universe". But his love is unconditional and automatic. In every other way he's a pathetic son of a b****.

oh you mean like in episode 3 where he literally kills a guy 😂

Yeah as has been pointed out many times here Walts claims of "he did it for his family" falls apart pretty quickly when you realize he actually had several opportunities to treat hiw cancer without resorting to or getting more involved with being a meth dealer. The in doing this for my family bit is the lie he tellsl himself and the viewer to justify it to himself when he's actually doing it for himself. He could have swallowed his pride and accepted help and pass away being remembered as a loving husband and father instead of leaving a Legacy of violence and death over his unresolved feeling's about essentially being the Pete Best of Grey Matter.

yeah. some folks can’t handle their fatal diagnoses.

It's really amazing how much Walter White whines and cries when someone sticks a gun in his face and somehow he doesn't get shot.

[This ](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTvCDjoDD-H6KBqZP-vMT5QfiJYHrWcZK9yCaUXp7T1TGkk5rMIU0xFqLU&s=10)

In Season 1 Walt's old Gray Matter friends offer him a high-paying job with great health coverage, as an acknowledgement that he is actually a brilliant guy who helped get their company off the ground, and he refuses outright. He got a legitimate lifeline and turned it down out of pride. Yeah, it's pretty obvious from the early stages that it isn't just about helping his family. That's why his biggest display of growth is when he admits it to Skylar at the end: "I did it for me. I liked it."

Walt has always been the same guy. The stakes just heighten around him

I have watched BB several times over because I use it in my storyboarding classes. It’s clear from episode 02 that Walt is a monster.

i think this is why breaking bad didnt work for me. I freaking love bryan cranston and was used to him as malcolms dad, so he had all the background to fool me. But all it did was show the difference between walt and hal, and it was so clear Walt was a regular middle aged resentful dude who got cancer and soon aired his piece of shitness, even in s1. What a trip it is to discuss this show on listnook in early 2010s were Skyler was about the worst person imaginable... then you watch it and its like, this is the worst person imaginable????? not the piece of shit who tried to r*** her because pp is hard? Oh and how its glossed over the fact he takes advantage of a poor kid i just had so little sympathy for walt by s2, breaking bad works if you sympathise with walt because the breaking bad catches you by surprise, not if you dont

I will never understand people who take the time and effort to write a post, yet cannot fix even the most basic and obvious of typos. Dhifts

Walt started thinking about "breaking bad" when he saw on TV how much money Hank recovered at a meth bust. Before he got his cancer diagnosis. S01E01.

I think even in the RV days, cooking in the desert, even a shootout or two, he was still kinda in control. But when he bought that hat and black jacket, and when he ended up in Gus's lab, he was beyond repair. He had hit full Heisenberg and there was no turning back. He was rich beyond his wildest dreams, he was in a thrilling cat-and-mouse with Hank, he had some mental/emotional control over Jesse. And even Gus, who was as calm and in-charge as they come, kept showing him respect (because he needed Walt, not necessarily because he respected him as a man or as a person, bur rather as a tool or pawn in his empire). He also had Skylar under his thumb at first, and then an accomplice (with the car wash) later on. Every season, and even within seasons, he took steps to becoming more controlling, more criminal, and more distant from his former self. In addition to the meth empire, he had a newfound self-confidence that came with beating cancer. He showed cancer who was boss (at least temporarily), and he ended up with a swagger, confidence, and boldness that absolutely didn't exist in season 1.

This is why I never particularly liked the show. I picked up on it almost immediately and hated him. When the main character is unappealing, it's tough to get into a show. You've got nobody to root for. I'm always a bit shocked that most didn't see it until later.

When he murders Crazy 8 in his basement. It’s framed as self-defense because the guy had a broken ceramic shard that he was trying to stab Walt with, but we know that he had zero intention of letting him go in the first place. Crazy 8 fighting back gave him the “justification” to choke him out in cold blood.

Setting some guy's car on fire at a gas station was subtle?