Anyone else a bit over how stupid TV treats the viewer now.

> It's like they think people are too stupid to follow a plot point or something these days they very often are.

It's not that they think we're stupid, they literally design shows around the assumption half the audience isn't even looking at the screen. And honestly... they're probably right

Sometimes, Then I read some discussions online and think both tv and movies are given the auidance way too much credit.

The age old writing cornerstone, "tell, don't show"

You should watch some pre-streaming serial TV. EVERYTHING is constantly repeated because they knew that people were half paying attention and missed last week's episode.

Whats a good example?

I keep hearing about this but what are some specific examples of shows that are doing this? I feel like I haven't actually seen it in action yet (and no, it's not because I'm doomscrolling so not realizing it)

What I've enjoyed about Pluribus is how much of it is visual storytelling. If your eyes aren't on the show, you're missing the entire thing.

It’s been a formula for a long time; you’re only now starting to notice it. The beginning states the plot, the middle is mostly filler, attempted plot twists (the most obvious character is never the perp lol), and side plots (romantic tension among a couple of characters), and then it’s time to wrap up, so here’s a quick reca.

I feel like this has always been true but these shows fade into obscurity over time. It feels different because the platform (cable vs. streaming) has changed.

As someone in their late 30s who has watched quite a lot of TV and films, I'm not sure that it's any worse than ever.  At least now we have waaaay more shows that feel like soprano's than we had back in the day. When watching TV with my foreign partner I can see why they make everything so obvious.  If you haven't watched as much TV or if English isn't your first language...or if you don't pay full attention you might need stuff spelled out for you. Watching TV is like playing video games - after you've seen enough you know exactly what to expect and what to look out for.

I’m not sure if it’s because of this, but I have recently found myself not responding to most new shows that I pick up.  I’ve liked The Pitt, The Bear, A Knight of Seven Kingdoms and Pluribus enough that I stay engaged with them. Pretty much everything else I’ve started watching recently I just give up after a couple episodes. I do think the fact that they treat audiences as though they’re half paying attention is probably degrading quality for a lot of shows. I also think that most people probably are only half paying attention and are on their phone.  I’m sure it’s a hard balance, because if you make something that you need to pay close attention to, it needs to be pretty engaging otherwise you’re going to lose your viewers. So I think a lot of the material that needs to do. This is probably kind of shitty anyway.

I hear this complaint all the time but I swear it's always been like this Expositon happening in dialogue cause we aren't going to see everyone's back story *"yes, Diane (character name established) but you know I can't resist x and that's why you divorced me (establish relationship) It doesn't offend me whatsoever and if they don't do this in a film I don't feel I deserve a cookie for how super clever I am

And it's not even helping. All day long all I see on Listnook is dog-shit takes from people who clearly did not understand what they were watching, no matter how dumbed-down it is.

There are competing reasons (and they're all winning simultaneously.) Poor education, lack of humanities and critical thinking mainly, lead to simple understandings - whole generations raised like robots with no experience exploring their own minds or the world. The attention economy is the metastasized result of advertising - you don't exist without being seen, so "engagement" is existential and perpetual. These contribute together to ensure huge numbers of people have no time to do anything but work constantly or seek dopamine - in short, no one has time, inclination, or ability to "think" about anything, especially entertainment.

A lot of viewers **are** stupid, so writers gotta meet them where they are.

The big issue that people rarely talk about is the decline in the writing talent. New writers used to come up working on shows doing 20+ episodes a year and forced to learn the art of concise storytelling with short deadlines. There was a mentorship and apprentice learning process about how to construct and effectively and efficiently tell a story. Then do it again straight away. That doesn't happen in this current age of TV. People are show running with far less experience as a writer than was needed a decade or two ago. With new writers coming up under them. While streamers may have some demands to cater to casual watchers, a big issue is the writers are padding out their work and don't have the confidence to trust the audience. They never learned how to concisely tell a story. You can tell when you're watching a 8 episode season, and it's basically one story, a movie idea stretched out and padded. Versus a season where it is 8 stories, telling a larger story.

Yeah it f****** sucks.

I am so sick of listening to three characters reexplain the plot again and again in full sentences one right after the other. I get it, show me don't tell me.

I recently watched His & Hers with my wife on Netflix and almost pulled my hair out when one of the detectives would keep asking the main character why they need to do something. I’m exaggerating but it would go something like: “We need to go to the crime scene and scan for fingerprints.” “Why do we need to do that?” “Because if we find fingerprints, we can find a suspect.”

One of the major rules of storytelling is “tell don’t show”

I completely agree but most people also have the attention span of a goldfish.

Based on some of the basic ass questions or fundamental lack of understanding I see from people regarding shows that DON'T do this, I get why it happens. Media literacy is at a low point.

Given the amount of obvious questions that are asked in different tv show sublistnooks it probably is necessary 

This has been a thing in procedurals since forever, due to not wanting to lose people who are too dumb to interpret to what they are seeing and hearing, and not wanting to lose people flipping channels who don't know what's happening.

Viewers need to stop proving them correct over and over.

Yeah…I don’t disagree generally, but TV used to be thought of as disposable and inconsequential content that mostly existed as a means of advertising oven cleaner and sub prime mortgages…then the prestige era started, but that’s transformed into tv that is big budget but influenced mostly by the algorithm and even more granular demographic data…hopefully it’ll swing back, but I think this is a phase that will eventually push viewers toward other things.

Television shows are written for the phone-scrolling audience that isn’t really paying attention these days, unfortunately. Hence the constant plot recaps via dialogue to fill everyone in that wasn’t paying attention. It sucks.

Because they are stupid and won't stop looking at their phones. Those who can pay attention are the outliers now.

I was glad Tell Me Lies didn’t do this and just trusted the audience to get it. But then browsing that sub after it aired made my brain hurt because no one could use the very blatant context clues to figure things out and argues that since certain things weren’t explicitly spelled out for them they didn’t understand.

i just watch old shows - modern television is straight up garbage and honestly a great representation of the brain rot affecting most of society

i stopped watching shows that do this

These decisions are driven by studio execs who are quite often the stupidest people in the room.

I hear you. But then you have a show like Andor and people complain that it's too slow.

Ok Bots, can you at least give some examples. This topic has been an over the internet Fire the past month or so.

I rarely watch newer tv shows. I have such a backlog of older shows that I’ll be busy for years. I do try to watch newer stuff sometimes like The Penguin and I enjoy it, but mostly I’m not a fan of new shows

Maybe you need to watch smarter shows

And just because there are stupid and disinterested viewers doesn’t mean they should be catered to, honestly seems like an excuse for studios to put out absolute shit content.

Better Call Saul, Sopranos, The Wire, Mr. Robot, and more recently Pluribus are the shows that I've seen that I think are the best at NOT doing this. Comedy wise, definitely arrested development.

You forget they need to cater to 77 million of the lowest possible denominators Trump voters…

Provide some examples

I just encountered this in Blindspot. A few minutes ago we learned that there are 40 canisters of poison gas missing. An agent says they've found 36. Ok we're up to speed right? Nope. Team leader says "The general said there were 40 missing." All right now we all know the situation. Apparently not. Agent 3 then says "That means there are 4 still unaccounted for." Thank you agent 3 I wasn't sure what 40 minus 36 is.

Does anyone have an example of this? Because I am just not seeing it. I don't know if I'm clueless, or if I just don't watch the type of shows that have them (I promise I am not bragging about anything here.) The most recent show I watched was "The Night Manager", with Tom Hiddleston. Others I have seen in the past year are "Fallout" and "IT: Welcome to Derry". I think we're starting up "The Pitt" this weekend. I have heard this specifically about Netflix shows. Is that were it is concentrated?

77 million people voted for Trump. Sadly, there are massive numbers of functionally brain dead people in the audience. They treat the audience like they are stupid, because they are.

I started watching modern family recently, and this is exactly how i feel despite it being a 15 year old show. Like the jokes are so obvious and STILL they have a talking head segment of them explaining the already obvious joke, i just dont get it. Ik this isnt that relevent i just needed to vent. But yes, modern tv is in a painful spot

It’s very evident in many shows and maybe that’s why I’ve enjoyed watching The Pitt so much. That show really just says “hey if you’re not paying attention you’re getting left behind. They literally have characters ask questions to each other and explain what they’re doing but it never feels like exposition or even really attempts to hold your hand, it’s just doctors talking to doctors”

The beauty of live sports is that they were unknowingly future-proof for the smartphone era.

Hey you said it at the beginning It's the cell phones. So many people are on their phone while watching these shows. If they don't do those dumb it down scenes people will miss important plot points and maybe just give up on watching the show

Watch the Pitt ! So refreshing for this reason, it doesn't take you by the hand, you're in charge of what you remember from the previous episodes

I've always hated the "Last time on ..." About the only time I need a recap is when it's 2+ years between seasons, then then I can always search that out my self.

Try Britbox, Acorn or MHZ.

I'd sure love to hear some specific examples that establish this apparently overwhelming pattern.

Have you seen how people write now? There are actual adults out there out-sourcing their brains to LLMs. Television isn’t pandering anymore.

> about 35 minutes to 38 minutes into the run time Shit needs to stop trying to be prestige TV. A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms was perfect in this sense

I feel like this almost always happened post commercial breaks in the past.

People b**** about the quality of everything always

This is a deliberate thing that companies are forcing writers to do now because marketing tells them (correctly) that the majority of users are viewing TV as a "second screen viewing," with their attention primarily on their phone. So, the show must be written so that it can be followed by someone who is not watching the screen. Jameela Jamil talks openly about it here. [https://www.listnook.com/r/Fauxmoi/comments/1of89mc/jameela\_jamil\_explains\_how\_tv\_shows\_are/](https://www.listnook.com/r/Fauxmoi/comments/1of89mc/jameela_jamil_explains_how_tv_shows_are/)

Now, lol.

Discussing The Pitt is exhausting half the time because people make shit up half the time and it telegraphs that they are not paying attention *at all* lmao

Reminds me of that actor (director?) who said they need to explicitly explain the plot in Netflix movies because young people are on their phones (WHILE WATCHING A MOVIE???) and don’t know what’s happening, horrifying article.

I don't watch much tv but I find it very tiresome when things are stated more than a couple of times. Like I get the characters are maybe discussing things they learned with other characters but you don't need to have them explain events play by play, especially when it's just not relevant. It's lazy and it sucks.

i don't know, ive seen some incredible shows that have come out past few years that I did not see the level of quality in the 90s.. so i disagree with you. I think we are getting both stupider shows and smarter shows. It's like the K shape curve, rich get richer poor get poorer; shows are getting dumber and smarterå

I hear this all the time, but I need specific examples because I haven't noticed it very much in the shows that I watch.

Some shows do. But we are so spoiled for choice and there is a lot of great television out there.

I recently read that this is highly intentional by writers/studios because they know people aren’t fully paying attention. It’s not “some ppl” it’s most people. 

I was until I started engaging with people that insist they're not on their phones on various sublistnooks for shows who still can't absorb something they just watched We have questions on The Pitt sublistnook last night about where a character was in that episode. One person was complaining because they can't be expected to remember that last week he asked to accompany a patient into surgery. Thing is last night a character asked where he was and someone reminded him that he followed his patient to the OR. When people told them to put their phone done they vehemently insisted they did And it happens constantly on every show. It's not even enough for them to come out and directly state something with a character later in dialog because people just don't even listen and every time a bunch of people who still missed key plot points insist they're paying attention fully

Hate this dialogue to cater to second screen watching. Just put your phone down and watch the f****** show. Can you imagine some of the classics like B5, DS9, Farscape, 24, The West Wing, Sopranos etc having to do this shit. F*** that.

It's been this way since reality TV

Hate to break it to you, but the viewers really are that stupid.

Depends what you mean by “over” it. “Over it”, as in, “I couldn’t care less”? Maybe. “Over it”, as in, “I gave up watching TV decades ago”, then, yeah.

Yes, and unfortunately it's working its way into movies as well. Netflix has a policy, that the plot must be restated three or four times throughout the movie, as a stipulation for it to be in production for their studio. I crave movies with quality, by people like Stanley Kubrick, Ari Astor, David Fincher, etc. that level of quality is a very hard thing to find these days

OP, I love your optimism but 99% of people are willingly stupid. 🤣

Ever since it was pointed out to me a few months ago in an article that they were doing this, it's really standing out to me now. We were just watching Monarch last night and we would comment every time they did something like that. They could shorten the show if they didn't do it.

This is why Game of Thrones was so good. Everything was mysterious and intriguing because I couldn’t keep track of half the characters and plot lines, especially with breaks between seasons.

Don't watch the dumb shows, there are plenty of good ones to fill your time.

Try The Leftovers. It does the opposite.

It's an ouroboros situation. They literally started engineering shows and movies to support "second screen usage", which lowered the bar, which required even more consideration for second screens...  And here we are just a few years later and every few scenes require an exposition dump.

I stopped watching Cable TV like 15-20 years ago because the advertisements treated the audience like they had a single digit IQ. Ever seen an infomercial? Good God...

I would argue that it actually used to be a lot worse, TV shows treating the audiences like idiots is nothing new. Not helped by how before streaming, shows were written with the expectation that many viewers would tune in several minutes into the show as well as an expectation that any episode could be someone's first and they'd be watching them out of order, so information often got repeated even more than in modern shows, especially after commercial breaks.

It makes me want to doomscroll or turn it off.

Yeah, whenever comes a masterpiece like The Acolyte, people say it doesn't make sense and full of plot holes.

To be fair, the break between seasons is long enough to forget everything. The break between The Capture season 2 and 3 was almost 4 years.

Why would producers think ppl are smart? Netflix top 10 speaks for itself. If you think tv is stupid, first we should check if we are part of the problem. If we watched “stranger things” then we cant b****. If we thought one piece la was a good show, then we cant complain. We are part of the problem. Only ppl who never interacted with the sin of consuming dogshit content are allowed to b**** tbh.

I think part of that is that so many series these days are serials. It's all about resolving plots from the previous episode and setting up plots for the next. They don't make self-contained shows anymore.

Im on what has to be my 60th rematch of The Wire and 10th of True Detective S1.

Based on my experience of the people around me over the past several decades, I fear it’s quite necessary.

I feel like it just depends on the show you choose to watch. That’s always somewhat been the case

I've been multitasking while watching TV my entire life. Before cellphones it was drawing or playing with toys or playing board games, etc. I follow along better that way. If I try to watch without a sidetask I almost always fall asleep. The only things I genuinely hate about newer TV is showing text messages on the screen. Some of us still watch television on televisions across the room and also have trouble reading tiny script in various colors. This feels specifically made for people watching TV on cellphones, not us dinosaurs who still like a big screen. The point of my ramble is that multitasking is not a new phenomenon and dumbing down the writing is insulting.

Didn't Matt Damon or Brad Pitt or someone else confirm this is literally what Netflix requires their scripts to have?

I dont really watch wester movies or series Soni don’t have this kind of problem

Ive seen people watch Harry potter and get confused why Hermione didnt present the wand even though the same scene clearly states they were onto her and knew the wand was stolen

This year's Oscars actually had a bit on this, albeit with movies. Here's the clip with Conan O'Brien and Sterling K. Brown in case you missed it: https://youtu.be/fQK_Uy8xjZg

You like the word like a lot