The paper price of oil is so wildly out of line with the spot price. Many commodity investors strongly feel that there's some kind of market manipulation going on.
832
CarFlipJudge2 days ago
+457
There's market manipulation going on with all commodities. Huge investments firms learned about a decade ago with cocoa that they can affect previously stable commodities in a huge way with just over-buying and over-selling commodities markets. I'm in the coffee industry and we're dealing with this right now. We're seeing more coffee bought on the market than what is actually produced in the world. There's no regulation on the market, so firms can do whatever they want and make money whenever they want.
457
Theduckisback2 days ago
+136
I'm aware that this isn't exactly a new phenomenon. However, the consequences of an oil supply shock of this magnitude can be deadly for people all over the world, and under normal conditions the paper price and spot price of oil are typically fairly closely aligned. The manipulation going on here will make the correction that much worse for consumers everywhere, and lead to runaway inflation of basic necessities.
136
CarFlipJudge2 days ago
+91
It's more so that it's been worsening over the years. Corporate greed is real and this will seriously hurt people in the long run.
91
[deleted]2 days ago
+4
[deleted]
4
Ba_Sing_Saint2 days ago
+18
“But for one beautiful moment we made the shareholders a lot of money”
18
rayinreverse2 days ago
+9
To what end? If they kill us all, there’s no more money to make.
9
Theduckisback2 days ago
+5
I mean, people have been making the exact same point about eliminating jobs through AI, has that stopped them?
5
upgrayedd692 days ago
+3
The vast majority can live in slums and work themselves to death while the economy adjusts to cater to richer and richer people. 50% of consumer spending is already done by the top 10% of earners. We live in a cyberpunk world just without the neon
3
AuroraFinem1 day ago
+2
How do you define “consumer spending” here if that’s the number you got?
Ok, so it looks like this just tracks any purchases of any kind as consumer spending so that makes reasonable sense, and the data tells us the opposite of what you suggest. The entire takeaway is that relying on a small fraction of the population for too much of spending will collapse the economy. That includes their own wealth.
2
AuroraFinem1 day ago
+3
Gaps here are just indicative of higher volatility in the commodity with a bearish sentiment. Futures are just options for commodities, it’s people betting the price will drop so futures are lower but there’s still an acute supply shortage so physical barrels are more expensive.
The only significant risk here is for people selling these futures if the physical barrel price stays high or jumps up. Prior to Trump starting a war, oil prices were very stable and largely unchanging since like 2022, so there would be no large gap since no one was betting the price would significantly change in either direction.
However, with the ceasefires announced and Iran announcing the opening of the strait, people are gambling the price will drop, if that doesn’t shake out then those people are going to lose a lot of money trying to source physical barrels to sell at the future price they sold and you might see something like a short squeeze which could drastically affect the oil price, but it would be very short lived as everything shuffles hands and settles.
3
PegasusPedicures18 hr ago
+1
This guy oils
1
Opposite_Train96892 days ago
+8
What is the difference in paper price/spot price? Also, would you happen to know some reading material on this phenomenon
This is not a new thing just figured out for what its worth, it's just isn't getting regulated against like it was in the past with [onions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onion_Futures_Act). And probably won't get regulated for the foreseeable future
15
snowypotato2 days ago
+13
How does more coffee get bought than produced? Wouldn’t that mean somebody is paying for delivery of coffee, but then not getting it?
I can’t speak for trading all around the world, but American and European futures exchanges absolutely will not tolerate that sort of thing. If you sell a contract to deliver a barrel of oil / cocoa / coffee / frozen concentrated orange juice, you damn well better deliver one
13
DragoxDrago2 days ago
+10
You buy it but don't take hold of it it, its the same for a lot of gold and silver exchanges the whole model is based on the assumption that everyone who owns some of it won't ask for it at the same time so you don't physically need all you've sold
10
ADHDBDSwitch2 days ago
+12
Oh great so we've gone from fractional reserve currency banking and they couldn't print enough money with that so now it's fractional reserve commodity trading.
12
CarFlipJudge2 days ago
+1
They roll the futures if needed.
There's no proof as to how much coffee will be available in X months, so you can buy and sell as many futures as you like. However, we have a very strong guess as to how much will be available and the amount bought heavily outnumbers that amount. Technically they aren't cheating...but they are lol
1
bacon-squared2 days ago
+62
I remember when there was a larger fire in Greece once and the corporations claimed that as a reason for the increase in oil price.
Usually when the wind blows a bit too hard the price of oil increases, when the sun is blocked by clouds for over an hour the price of oil goes up. But a war and a blockage of a major oil producing country, eh, might go up a few dollars and then come down, then go up a bit.
Something is off.
62
Theduckisback2 days ago
+45
Dated Brent, which is actually physical barrels of oil for delivery was priced as high as $133/barrel a few days ago. Paper oil futures are at like $91/barrel.
45
lifting_cardio2 days ago
+112
First… Europe has always operated on a 4-5 week timeline of jet fuel. Thats their industry standard. On that note, this is a sensationalist headline intent on stoking fear and reaction.
However when you read the article, the actual topic of the headline is made more clear. The last ships that were allowed through the Strait have officially arrived. This puts them at the theorized 6 week marker. There are no new ships, at this time, en route either fuel.
This is where the headline makes more sense given the context. On any normal day “maybe 6 weeks of fuel” would be standard operating conditions. With the strait closed, a countdown actually begins .
112
drewts862 days ago
+60
> The last ships that were allowed through the Strait have officially arrived.
This is the big part that isn’t being publicized enough. Despite the initial spike from attacking Iran, oil has been somewhat stable since. Now that the last of those ships are arriving (April 15 was the date I heard) we are set to see oil prices spike even further as countries begin competing for scraps in a tight market.
60
WasteProfession89482 days ago
+7
It’s not 100% sensationalized if it’s true. Your own description of the current situation describes it as true.
7
huskiesofinternets2 days ago
+1
soooo is it sensationalist or not?
1
Shot-Possibility-3992 days ago
-26
So you're saying Europe only has 6 or so weeks of fuel left?
Wow, thanks for typing that novel
-26
CompletelyRandy2 days ago
+13
It's called context.
13
hugzilla18892 days ago
+14
That's a novel to you? Holy shit we're so fucked lol. Go read a book.
14
Shot-Possibility-3992 days ago
-1
Maybe you should start with a dictionary and look up the word facetious
-1
lifting_cardio2 days ago
+16
That novel explains they always only have that “amount left” since people don’t read the context as to why this normally wouldn’t be news.
16
skiabay2 days ago
-1
Sure, but you said the headline is sensationalist when in reality, the headline is accurately conveying how dire the situation is.
-1
lifting_cardio2 days ago
-1
It’s a sensationalist headline. An accurate headline would be “after last fuel ships arrive in EU, airlines begin 6 week count down”
Still sensationalist and drives clicks, but also gives all the relevant facts.
-1
skiabay2 days ago
-2
The important information is that airlines only have 6 weeks of fuel left. The original headline conveys that information perfectly fine. If you want a nuanced understanding, read the article.
-2
Gullible-Web79222 days ago
+4
1.6k comments in 4 months.
4
[deleted]2 days ago
[deleted]
0
ChiralWolf2 days ago
+44
TBF they've been releasing huge amounts of reserved and sanctioned crude into the markets so that is 100% a form of market manipulation. It wouldn't surprise me if there was still something more nefarious going on but so far my gut feeling is mostly that people who trade commodities are just so detached from the people that actually have to buy and use those commodities that they don't understand the cliff we've already jumped off. They just feel the fun weightless sensation and don't realize there's a bottom.
44
SomeDumbGamer2 days ago
+22
Right. The shock of everyone draining their reserves hasn’t even hit yet. What happens when they have nothing left to bandaid the problem with anymore?
22
shicken6842 days ago
+3
It's not been talked about much because that's still a couple months away. The reserves are pretty vast.
The current consensus seems to be that the strait will reopen in the next few weeks and the reserves can get the world through the backlog until everything normalizes.
Edit: not saying this is wise or correct, but that seems to be the thinking among world leaders and oil traders right now.
3
sawyouoverthere2 days ago
+14
I’m only peripherally aware of what this means. Do you have time to explain it further?
14
Theduckisback2 days ago
+37
https://www.ebc.com/forex/paper-oil-vs-physical-oil-the-40-gap-traders-are-missing
This explains the difference between paper futures and physical spot prices, and how strange it is that they've remained this divergent for so long.
https://www.dawn.com/news/1992142
This explains what veteran commodity traders are saying about this. The US government put out a statement on March 6th saying that they could, in theory, use funds to "stabilize the oil markets". Investors have noted the unusually large amount of transactions happening just before some new Statement from Trump about peace or ceasefires in this conflict. They also warn that the longer this divergence between paper vs. Physical price remains in place, the worse the outcomes will be for consumers when the market finally corrects itself.
37
sawyouoverthere2 days ago
+5
Thanks for this
5
shouldbepracticing852 days ago
+5
Ok, finance is not my strong suit - why is the futures price being almost 30% less than current price a bad thing for consumers? I’m struggling to understand how the futures price relates to current prices and what happens when they stay diverged (for good or bad) for extended periods.
I have a feeling I’m missing something very obvious…
5
oatmealparty2 days ago
+7
I read the entire article trying to understand as well. My guess is that as the article mentions 95% of futures contracts don't result in physical delivery of oil, they're just paper trades. But if 1-2 months from now the spot price of oil is still high, everyone that bought those c**** contracts are going to demand physical delivery of the oil. Or will trade their futures contracts to someone that does want physical oil, like an airline or manufacturer.
That could mean a ton of oil coming off the spot market to fulfill those contracts, which would drive the supply down and prices up.
7
CosmosGame2 days ago
+3
These are great links. Eventually the paper price has to meet the physical right? But when?
3
aaronhayes262 days ago
+20
Basically the “price of oil” as a commodity that you can bet on is currently much different than what you would have to pay today in cash for a tanker full of oil that you actually need to refine into fuels.
Basically it means that traders ***think*** that the supply issues are going to resolve before we run out of oil.
20
sawyouoverthere2 days ago
+7
Thank you for your help with understanding this
7
sueca2 days ago
+6
Simplified, you and I can make a contract where I promise you that you can buy gas from me for $5/gallon in 6 months. In 6 months, it might be $4/gallon at the gas station, but since you agreed to buy it from me I will now make a profit. But if it's $6/gallon at the gas station, you will now be happy and I will lose money since I have to buy gas and sell it for less than that.
And they think that the US is manipulating the market really hard by promising to sell a lot of oil that they don't actually have access to
6
berticusberticus2 days ago
+18
You can speculate on the price of oil 1-2 months out with futures contracts. The price of oil based on those contracts is much less than the price of physical barrels of oil right now. The mismatch is puzzling analysts because of how large it is and how long it’s been going on.
18
sawyouoverthere2 days ago
+3
This is helpful information. Thank you
3
mido_sama2 days ago
+3
Wait until refiners cut production to force the future to pass the physical prices.
3
DogsAreOurFriends2 days ago
+2
I’m shocked
2
Primary-Bookkeeper101 day ago
+2
It hasn’t exactly been subtle
2
Matman1612 days ago
+304
These are the kinds of headlines you see on a pre war newspaper in fallout
304
Sablestein2 days ago
+67
Been trying real hard to not think about that
67
FallenDanish2 days ago
+8
How I felt when Trump started the Canada annexation routine lmao
8
aTOMic_fusion2 days ago
+176
I was told the Iran war should only last 4 or 5 weeks, so we should be good 👍
176
newaccount2522 days ago
+39
I heard someone say they won the war on day 1,2,3,4,5,6….
39
oatmealparty2 days ago
+9
Congress seems pretty confident it will be over in the next two weeks, so that's cool I guess. Wonder what happens then, does Trump just f*** off or do we have a constitutional crisis?
9
takesthebiscuit2 days ago
+4
Quick in and out!
4
incunabula0012 days ago
+2
20 minute adventure Mooorty.
2
PM_ME_UR_VULVASAUR_2 days ago
+275
It's starting to feel like we're in that film Don't Look Up. No one seems to be accepting how bad this will get.
275
po3smith2 days ago
+114
You'll never convince me otherwise that the reason why that movie bomb so heavily was because so many people saw themselves in it and didn't think it was funny or quite frankly didn't get it that it was about them. Seriously
114
hayde0882 days ago
-47
Nah. I had a concussion after that film beat me over the head repeatedly with its message. Truly a dumb movie trying to be smart made for dumb people who think they're smart for understanding it.
-47
Please_HMU2 days ago
-42
Nah. That movie f****** sucked. I am the biggest proponent for climate change awareness of everyone I know, and even I hated it.
-42
darkk412 days ago
+9
Real life is rapidly looking to be filled with far more repetitive stupidity than the movie, idk what to tell you.
Ask if the president in DLU still seems too dumb to be real. I am not even convinced the level of satire dumbness measures up to the current reality.
The biggest difference is in the movie they didn't make phone calls to dicaprio's character's house trying to kill him, that absolutely would happen IRL.
9
mountjo1 day ago
+3
I think I have a hard time with the movie for similar reasons. Sure, it lets me feel good pointing out the similarities but what's the use of smugness when we're all fucked anyway?
3
Ran41 day ago
+1
Yeah, it was really bad. So on the nose that it was boring.
1
Please_HMU1 day ago
Exactly. And it didn’t have anything constructive to say at all - it was almost just mocking the situation like “ha-ha your kids are going to inherit an unlivable planet and the people in charge will never do anything about it and there’s no hope”. And yes, obviously that is the reality right now. But if you’re just going to laugh at it sardonically, that just pisses me off. It doesn’t nothing clever or offers any sort of hope / solutions.
Like I just dont know who the movie is for. Climate deniers will write it off for being over the top ridiculous and have their shitty delusions reinforced. And people who actually care deeply about the climate already know exactly what the movie beats you over the head with for 2 hours, and will find it redundant, obnoxious and unhelpful.
0
Snagmesomeweaves2 days ago
+33
Ryanair is about to limit you to only two outfits being worn at one time to save on fuel cost
33
archiekane2 days ago
+9
Per clothing item cost. Each sock charged individually.
9
ExtremeOccident2 days ago
+47
Well my short trip to Puglia next week is right on time.
47
sfw_doom_scrolling2 days ago
+10
*Literally tuesday morning* I dropped several thousand on a Euro-trip in August to chase the solar eclipse. I think I'm gonna be fucked.
10
AlexMelillo2 days ago
+10
Lovely place. Go visit Polignano a Mare. Easily of the prettiest places I’ve ever visited
10
viktor722 days ago
+3
I have a ton of intra-Europe trips planned for this summer. 🤷
3
bewsh1232 days ago
+41
What’s happened to the 80% of world crude oil that doesn’t come from the Middle East?
41
a_dolf_in2 days ago
+56
The topic of oil is a bit more complex than people think. There are 2 problems at play here.
**1) Not all crude is created equal!**
There are essentially different blends of crude, and skilled petrochemical engineers might even be able to tell you where a crude is coming from just by the viscosity and smell.
There are classifications, the most common one being the density (light/medium/heavy) and sulfur content (sweet/sour)
Sweet crude has low sulfur, sour has high sulfur.
Light crude has mostly short hydrocarbon chain lengths, meaning its heavier leaning on the gases (methane, buthane...), naphta (mostly for chemicals), and gasoline
Heavy crude has mostly long chains, so it leans on the heavy oils, bunker oil, lubricants, and some heavy diesel. Medium leans more towards kerosene and diesel.
Because of all that...
**2) Refineries are usually optimized for a certain type of crude.**
So here we get a small irony, the US is a big exporter of crude as they produce large quantities of light-sweet oil, however their own energy needs are based a lot on heavy sour because that is what most US refineries are optimized for!
Now a refinery being optimized for X blend but getting a different blend can have problems ranging from "it runs very badly" up to "it will literally break the refinery"
If you put these 2 problems together we get to the critical part. Kerosene would, as i stated, need medium blends to run most efficiently. \~45% of these comes from the gulf (ironically called "arab light"). 40% from Russia (ural blends).
Europe sanctioned russian oil and made up for the disruption by relying on the gulf for medium blends directly, but also for heavy blends which were then mixed with light blends (US, north sea, nigeria) to be able to run european refineries. The light blends are still there, but the heavy ones missing is the problem.
In short, it would be like making Rum & Coke, but you only have coke.
And as i said earlier, the absence of medium blends (due to russia sanctions and hormuz blockage), and heavy blends for mixing (due to the hormuz blockage) is most negatively impacting heavy fuel/heating oils, diesel and kerosene.
56
CFCYYZ2 days ago
+12
Why do I suddenly think of [Fred Flintstone airlines](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Fred+Flintstone+airliner&iar=images)?
12
archiekane2 days ago
+4
That business failed, it never took-off.
4
Daren_I2 days ago
+36
> The impact will be “higher petrol (gasoline) prices, higher gas prices, high electricity prices,” said Birol, speaking in his Paris office looking out over the Eiffel Tower.
Kind of off topic, but where is this guy's office that's looking out **over** the Eiffel Tower?
36
Can_Of_Worms2 days ago
+18
He’s a pilot
18
kagethemage2 days ago
+65
Perhaps now people will have some empathy for Cuba.
65
KillBroccoli2 days ago
+37
We have empathy. We just lack a few carriers to protect cuba from the orange calamity.
37
KimJongFunk2 days ago
+8
It breaks my heart what is happening in Cuba. Are there any aid organizations that are legitimate? I want to help but I’m afraid that what I send won’t make it to the people in need.
8
Worth_Garbage_44712 days ago
-9
No, they're not tired of winning yet.
-9
Imaginary-Ad-79192 days ago
+45
Thanks, Trump, you’ve ruined my summer vacation.
45
Shufflepants2 days ago
+42
His supporters don't care, they've never left their county.
42
[deleted]2 days ago
+10
[deleted]
10
Shufflepants2 days ago
+8
Note I said "county" not "countRy".
8
bkauf22 days ago
+4
Yeah, i’m leaving for Europe in… 6 weeks
4
Electronic_Brain2 days ago
+18
Great, so my 'Summer in Paris' plans just pivoted to 'Summer in my backyard with a baguette and a fan.' Honestly, the commute is better, but the view is mostly my neighbor’s un-mowed lawn.
18
Professional_Set41372 days ago
-22
Absolutely tone def
-22
Emotional_Liberal2 days ago
+11
I’ll go down with you. That’s absolutely the most privileged take ever. Oh no! My overseas trip is going to be ruined by high gas prices!!!
11
Karenomegas2 days ago
+6
There will be people talking like this well into formal war. The internet just makes them part of our daily assessments like it or not.
6
Electronic_Brain2 days ago
-4
I know, since i already purchased tickets months ago.
-4
spoonerluv2 days ago
+9
Surely they’re not running low on pens and paper, the they’ll get to drafting some stern letters over this.
9
Veearrsix2 days ago
+5
Is this how we get new technology introduced? Force fossil fuels to become unavailable so that zero point can be “discovered”?
5
ChillFratBro2 days ago
+5
There's no realistic alternative for airplanes. Zero- carbon air travel looks like ground carbon capture stations and planes still burning jet fuel.
Hydrogen can't be stored volumetrically densely enough to fit in an airplane, nuclear aircraft are a horrifying idea from a safety perspective, and anyone who tells you battery electric is feasible for the length of journey people actually fly for has no idea what they're talking about.
Your point that overall this should accelerate the transition to renewables is true, but we would need to completely break our understanding of physics to get non-petroleum based long distance air travel.
5
GeshtiannaSG2 days ago
+2
Lots of things can’t be replaced easily. How do you make a phone that doesn’t require fossil fuels? Aspirin? Soap? Clothes?
Some alternatives come from plants, plants need fertiliser, which comes from fossil fuels too (not to mention massive water usage).
2
[deleted]2 days ago
-5
[removed]
-5
fantabulouz2 days ago
+73
this reads like an AI generated comment
73
Yory_Alsik2 days ago
+35
lmao it absolutely is.
"This isn't just an x & y; its an \[extreme adjective\] Z!!!"
I hate this sentence structure now.
35
tj10072 days ago
+4
It’s crazy people can’t express their own thoughts anymore.
4
Shizukayo2 days ago
+35
Honestly. You're so real for noticing that. In fact that hyperawareness is something many should aspire to. Its not just astute. Its observational.
35
The_Bombsquad2 days ago
+8
Hmmmmm................ is this comment also AI?
8
GreaterAttack2 days ago
+2
No, it's often just paranoia. I was accused just today of using AI to write my comments, when I've never done so.
2
SleepLessTeacher2 days ago
+1
9 year account and under 600 karma. Absolutely is a bot.
1
epicfail19942 days ago
+17
Thanks ChatGPT
17
obedientfag2 days ago
+25
Just in time is so f****** stupid. It ignores the basic experience of living on earth. all it takes is one butterfly wing flap for the whole house of cards to come down. It is prioritizing marginal profit over the stability of the system.
25
fatmanstan1232 days ago
+16
The counterpoint is that the cost of storing extra of everything is incredibly expensive and wasteful. Just imagine every part of every car on the road for over a decade to be stored in enormous warehouses. It's not feasible.
16
obedientfag2 days ago
+5
I agree that neither extreme is feasible. It just shows a lack of foresight to assume conditions are invariant.
5
likeikelike2 days ago
+5
Which is why nobody does actual, 100%, just-in-time. It's not like toyota drives the delivery truck up to the production line and workers grab the parts as they assemble their cars. Even then, the parked truck would technically be storage.
5
PeteLattimer2 days ago
+2
One can’t abandons just in time in isolation without taking a massive risk. You basically have to bet on significant inflation to pencil it out and if you are wrong you are stuck with a bunch of stuff that you can’t sell for the price you paid/stored it for
2
CJKay932 days ago
+7
> Just in time is so f****** stupid.
It's only "so f****** stupid" in response to "so f****** stupider" events which happen with less regularity than every minute of the day.
7
PRSArchon2 days ago
+5
Saying something that resulted in cheaper prices for everybody for decades is stupid because it leads to a short term supply issue now is stupid.
5
ChillFratBro2 days ago
+2
6 weeks is not "just in time", and this is also 6 weeks *without dipping in to national strategic reserves*.
I agree with you that true JIT is dumb, but any supply chain that's actually operating on a JIT basis has reserves measured in hours, not weeks.
Is six weeks long enough? It has been to this point. This isn't some capitalistic gotcha, it's that Israel bated Trump in to doing the thing everyone assumed no one would be dumb enough to do.
2
cukamakazi2 days ago
-1
Eh, I don’t know, I’ll probably assume that the billion dollar companies employing JIT have worked the math.
-1
obedientfag2 days ago
+3
I have no doubt it is the most profitable course of action. The question is if profit for the already rich is the most important goal.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjFyRBRuYoo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjFyRBRuYoo)
3
MoreGaghPlease2 days ago
+3
How much jet fuel do they usually have on hand? They don’t really make any except a bit in Norway and it’s expensive to store, I would have expected that they only keep a few weeks or months stored.
3
PRSArchon2 days ago
+4
About 6 weeks
4
takesthebiscuit2 days ago
+2
I have no idea how much fuel that is, 6 weeks sounds quite a lot all ready!
2
Born-Jacket2 days ago
+1
I'm more concerned in how much fuel is that for their "military" if they get into an escalation with Russia. Do they basically have 4 days worth of fuel if they get into it. Disgraceful planning.
1
carebeartears2 days ago
+1
oh, this ends well :P
1
sferak1 day ago
+1
should be enough to melt steel beams
1
Pixilatedash2 days ago
-6
Good! This obsession we have with travelling is ruining the earth. Enough already.
-6
mudokin2 days ago
-8
Great, more fearmongering, that will drive up gas prices even more, and yes I know jet fuel is not the same as gas, but people be stupid and will fear buy gas
-8
AvidCyclist2502 days ago
-15
Norway has been doing a lot greedy hand rubbing recently.
Time for the EU to patch up some legal loopholes that those grabby little hands are exploiting. Crisis profiteering, shifting around and hiding profits, gotta stop. Single market access? Then behave accordingly.
128 Comments