Unrelated to this specific episode, but, I was talking about born again S2 on Twitch the other day, and someone showed me this video of Deborah Ann Woll (who I've been a huge fan of since True Blood) teaching Jon Bernthal about Dungeons & Dragons (where DAW is a Dungeon Master): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpVJZrabMQE
I'm catching up on this week's episode, but from the commentary I've read in this thread, it seems like there's very much a similar ethos that's emerging between DD and Batman, re: killing.
If you have HBO max, or amazon prime, watch Batman: The Dark Knight Returns: Part 2 - he kills a certain someone because he finally realizes that, sometimes, certain shit just won't f****** stop unless he does something about it.
1
dominic_tortilla2 days ago
+6
Can Powell just die already?
6
dratsablive2 days ago
+1
Wait for May 12th.
1
UnFelDeZeu3 days ago
+10
Karen is completely right. Matt put Fisk in prison twice and not only did he get out, but he also became Mayor and turned New York into a Fascist hellhole. It's pretty clear that the 'right way' is not working, and it results in countless innocents dead. At this point not killing him means being part of the problem. But wait, it gets worse, Matt saved Fisk from being killed last season so Matt is even MORE guilty of the shit he's doing.
10
ChalupaBatmanMc013 days ago
+18
I really don't like Buck, I'd like to see him meet his end this season in a satisfying and brutal way.
Karen's meltdown, what a performance by Deborah Ann Woll this episode. I keep questioning why she struggled to get work after the first series was cancelled.
18
Dinky66669 hr ago
+1
I hate her acting. It's terrible, I personally can't stand it
1
LilyWhiteClaw3 days ago
+26
God Karen's meltdown was perfect. I totally see both sides of the coin on this one but man her line about him choosing the wrong people was so perfect. And of course the episdoe before with the Foggy flashback and how much of an influence he clearly was on Matt's ethos hit even harder now.
What a fantastic season so far.
26
Carnavaliaa3 days ago
+32
That moment with Karen was good. She really was about to put a bullet in Bullseyes’ head if Matt didn’t intervene. And her frustration for him was so well acted and felt so real.
Genuinely how I would react if I interacted with any of these ”no kill rule” sort of hero
32
Vadermaulkylo3 days ago
+14
She’s dead on correct too. Literally all of this is Matt’s fault. All of it. If he just put down this animal in season 3 then none of this would be happening. But no, he had to be on his self righteous “we become just as bad as them” bullshit,
I get that he has his faith and wants to honor Foggy, I think that actually adds a lot of depth to his character. But he can’t keep trying to honor a dead person when there’s so many others dead in more brutal ways. Tbh I kinda hope the theme here will be that being a good person don’t always work and Matt kills Fisk. If he doesn’t then imho he’s just as bad since he’s willing to put so many innocents in danger just to make himself feel better. Frank was right that none of these psycho’s lives matter and they all need to die.
14
AKAkorm3 days ago
+8
I get why superhero shows and movies generally shy away from the main hero killing villains to stop them from coming back. But I also feel like the moral message they’re sending is undermined when that villain returns and causes incredible amounts of harm to innocent people.
8
suss2it1 day ago
+2
I feel like for the most part the MCU actually avoided that, like the Avengers were regularly catching bodies left, right and center. Makes Matt seem even more ridiculous IMO.
2
roastedmarshmellows3 days ago
+14
That’s why this is such an interesting moral dilemma. It’s the trolley problem with catholic guilt added for flavour. Matt believes killing is wrong and no one is irredeemable, that’s not a bad thing! The problem is, what happens when a person is irredeemable?
Karen isn’t wrong either, and while Matt is the one dealing with the bad guys, Karen sees the impact. I don’t think Matt quite has that level of perspective anymore since he has been mostly underground this season. Karen is in the trenches, so it makes perfect sense why she sees killing the villains as a necessity.
14
mynameisjiyeon2 days ago
+1
at this point tho its becoming a problem like The Boys. everything always get reset back to 0. Do a killing joke and have the good guy finally accept it and end it. Itll be interesting to see how this decision will break Matt and have him deal with that scenerio
1
Livio883 days ago
-23
This psychiatrist’s ptsd is starting to get old. It’s a world where people survive rampaging super powered villains, alien invasions and various cosmic level threats on a daily basis, a lot of New Yorkers have likely been through way worse.
-23
Caffeinist3 days ago
+12
That's not how trauma works.
Also, in the comics Muse dies but from his afterlife, he manages to influence a struggling young artist to pursue his work.
I believe what we're seeing is actually not her dealing PTSD, but rather Heather gradually being compelled to pick up Muse's craft. The show have been pretty ambiguous on the supernatural, even though there should be ample room for it with Elektra's resurrection, the rest of the Defenders and what not.
So whether this is portrayed as her dealing with her trauma and compulsive thoughts, or if she's slowly being corrupted by Muse's spirit may remain ambiguous. One way or another, I believe she will end up becoming the new Muse relatively soon.
12
Livio883 days ago
-2
Regardless of how it works, it’s hard to explore the concept with the right amount of nuance in a comicbook show where so many killers are getting a free pass.
And yeah, I did mention her eventually picking up the mantle of the villain, the problem is that it is taking too long.
-2
Caffeinist3 days ago
+4
Sure, extrajudicial abductions, assassinations and murders go unresolved. But unless she is watching the show too, her character isn't supposed to be aware of those.
It seems her story is centered around the fact that she was an unsuspecting victim. She was targeted by a serial killer that had terrorized the city. A serial killer who literally credited her as his source of inspiration.
I also feel she has been given a modest amount of screen time so for what it's worth I'm not sure it's even been given enough exposition to get old yet.
4
Livio883 days ago
-1
She doesn’t need to watch the show, we’re the ones watching it and experience the tonal inconsistency.
Karen’s got ptsd as well, but her entire screentime isn’t “omg, I just can’t get over how I killed that guy way back in season 1,” she’s got new business, another character arc that she’s going through, and when it does come up again as in this episode, it’s relevant to the issue at hand.
Muse was previous season’s plot and we’re almost at the end of the 2nd season, so this one stewed long enough in my opinion.
I suspect they’re dragging it out cause they’re saving Heather’s character arc for the 3rd season, so they couldn’t do much with her character this season, but again, it’s too slow for my taste.
We had 3 complete story arcs over 3 seasons in the original DD show, while this one is juggling several arcs over multiple seasons.
-1
Environmental_Act5763 days ago
+15
We just don't see the trauma of the people who survived various life threatening events, doesn't make her suffering any less.
15
Livio883 days ago
-9
It’s not any less but certainly quite boring in this setting.
-9
Environmental_Act5763 days ago
+4
can i ask why do you find it boring ? what do you think would make it better ?
4
OPMajoradidas3 days ago
+3
If anything they way they are doing it might be an OK amount.
3
Livio883 days ago
+6
It creates a narrative dissonance, in my opinion. While I'm told I'm supposed to feel for Matt's ex number 4 or 5 that he dated for like a month, the show's creating sympathy for the killer of Foggy, a main character that we all loved and cared for so much.
Not to mention, the said ex is also okay with the complete psycho Fisk that kills anyone on a whim and sheds tears for his wife who wasn't that much better.
This is a comic book world where villains are as charming as the heroes, and they can get do-overs no matter what they do. So, its a bit out of place to get hung up on something a villain of the week character did to the ex of the month for this long.
>"what do you think would make it better ?"
If they just skip over to the part where she becomes the masked villain already, cause it feels like that's what they've been alluding to for a while now.
6
Impossible_Quote_5053 days ago
+5
Matts moral compass is an issue for me. It feels like we are back at square one. When Matt found out Fisk was out of prison the gloves should be off. Not only should Matt be doing everthing in his power to murder Fisk at the earliest opportunity hes then gone and saved Fisks life, twice. I am not buying it. Its a character arc we are way past as the viewer.
5
Vadermaulkylo3 days ago
+13
I agree that it’s selfish of him and is self righteous but it does make sense. He’s a devout Catholic and his best friend who died was always trying his very hardest to make Matt stay moral. He feels like he’s gotta honor Foggy.
13
Chaotic_Beautiful3 days ago
+19
Two words - Catholic conditioning.
19
rigatony963 days ago
+6
God forbid someone have a moral compass
6
Chaotic_Beautiful3 days ago
+4
Catholic conditioning and Catholic guilt are like character trait pillars of Matt's character since episode 1 of DD.
4
rigatony963 days ago
+1
It’s not catholic conditioning to not want to kill people lmao
1
Chaotic_Beautiful3 days ago
+1
Not people, but monsters. At this point, it'd be abnormal for anyone to not want to kill Fisk if not for a verryy strong reason . Luckily, the character has Catholic brain washing as a reason.
1
tetoffens3 days ago
+43
Society is in a really bad place if people can't understand that someone is against killing.
Whatever character arc you want is the one that doesn't fit a show about Matt Murdock.
43
SeppFraudiola3 days ago
-11
And yet killing and eating other living creatures for food is okay.
-11
Vadermaulkylo3 days ago
+5
What’s there to understand? He’s locked him up multiple times and he always gets out and is more powerful. And now many many innocent people are dying. This isn’t a “society” issue, it’s basic human empathy. If there’s a cancer murdering hundreds, you don’t treat it, you cut it out.
With that said though I get why Matt didn’t do it because of his faith and Foggy.
5
tanv913 days ago
+7
The prevalence of killing and murder in other shows/films has completely desensitised viewers perceptions of the morality behind such acts. It’s easier said than done.
Imagine being in front of another human being and extinguishing that life. I know it’s just fiction but I’m glad this show makes such a big deal out of this dilemma. Matt tried to do it before but his devotion in honoring Foggy’s name is too important to him. But I agree, Fisk does need to die. Matt shouldn’t be the one to pull the trigger.
As a side note, sure the world would be a better place if Trump or Netenyahu were killed but it would just end up making martyrs of them. Pretty sure Matt made the same point in a previous episode. It’s all just a vicious cycle.
7
mynameisjiyeon2 days ago
+1
> e the one to pull the trigger.
>
> As a side note, sure the world would be a better place if Trump or Net
Killing Joke would like a word. One of the most praised storyline
1
Mattyzooks3 days ago
+28
Character arc? He's a Catholic that makes "thou shalt not kill" his number one rule. His religion is a major part of the character. An "arc" where he is gonna start killing is only going to lead to episodes of whiney Catholic guilt and confessions.
You're asking the character to become a different character. Daredevil isnt Punisher.
28
Morgan-Moonscar3 days ago
+20
Plus, he tried to intentionally kill Bullseye and then the Kingpin became Mayor of NYC.
For Matt, it felt like divine punishment for nearly breaking that rule.
20
Impossible_Quote_5053 days ago
-7
Thou shalt not kill not thou shalt save my sworn enemy from death twice. Also didnt he brutally murder Muse in the first season ? Why does Fisk get a pass ?
-7
SovFist3 days ago
+14
Try actually watching the show. He didn't murder Muse
14
dontbajerk3 days ago
+2
He did kill Nobu Yoshioka though, only for him to get resurrected. During a fight though, not really chosen murder.
2
[deleted]3 days ago
-1
[deleted]
-1
rabid_J3 days ago
+6
Why would you think breaking someone's arm and murdering them is even close enough for that comparison? Of course murder is too far for him. He's not Punisher and never will be so I dunno why you're whining about it as if he SHOULD be murdering.
If you just break someone's arm they can live on to redeem themselves, if you murder them they never can. It's as much a part of his character as a h******* catholic as it is for Batman. He'll put someone in a full body cast for 6 months but won't murder them; this is an established character trait that won't ever be changed in a true adaptation.
6
Mattyzooks3 days ago
+8
Lol what? His religious reasoning for no killing is like the 2nd most important thing about him outside of him being blind.
8
Environmental_Act5763 days ago
-16
It's really starting to annoy me ngl.
-16
Vadermaulkylo3 days ago
+33
I thought it was great. The last 20 minutes being peak Daredevil. The destruction of the Rabbit in the Snowstorm and Matt’s blood getting on it was awesome stuff.
33
kuhpunkt3 days ago
+59
BB is kinda stupid, isn't she? She just runs with every bit of intel she gets without verifying anything. And then she asks Daniel what he's protecting her from. As if she doesn't know that Fisk is dangerous.
59
LilyWhiteClaw3 days ago
+23
Why the hell did she keep the chip in her pocket for that long?
23
nerdystoner253 days ago
+10
THANK YOU. When Daniel first locked onto her coat, all I could think was there’s no way in hell it’s still there.
10
GodzillaUK3 days ago
+35
"protect me from who" as he works for the man she knows killed her uncle without mercy, with his own bare hands. She really radiates teen journalist who has no clue what is going on so long as she tells the school 'the truth'
35
mdavis3603 days ago
+46
Having Jessica back was so satisfying but she was barely in it sadly.
46
ArchDucky3 days ago
-13
Its called "Daredevil" not "Jessica Jones".
-13
John__Wick3 days ago
+44
They shouldn't have shown her in the trailer. Would have been a pleasant surprise cameo and no one would have expected more.
44
Vadermaulkylo3 days ago
+1
According to reviewers, she’s in another episode this season.
1
hamsolo193 days ago
+5
I'm pretty sure that while shooting season two it got out there that Krysten Ritter was on set so instead of trying to keep it under wraps they leaned into it like, "yeah, Jessica Jones is back, check it out."
5
sexandliquor3 days ago
+16
Feels like this season has been running on all cylinders. I really enjoyed this episode. Felt like a season finale until you remember …but wait, there’s more!
16
Mrr_Bond3 days ago
+14
The show has had some pretty good momentum going, but unfortunately I felt this episode was a pretty big backslide in quality. Finally having Jessica back was fun, but the whole thing was one big cliche-fest from start to finish, capped off with that ridiculous homemade "resist!" video with inexplicable movie editing.
And I realize that everyone knew the doctor was dying the moment he showed up last episode but come on, the way that played out is just so dumb.
14
Vadermaulkylo3 days ago
+13
I’ll push back on your last point. I mentioned this elsewhere but when my grandmother died, the doctor did try to comfort my mom and give her a pep talk. Overly intrusive doctors are a thing.
13
AwesomeExo3 days ago
+5
The doctor thing was so odd. I agree that everyone knew he would be the sacrificial grief slaughter, but I can’t tell what they were going for… if they were trying to write him in a way that would make us care more or less about him dying.
5
ChainLC3 days ago
+12
So Jessica has power problems now? That's unfortunate.
Matt and Fisk are still at it. Cool fight but no resolution.
Karen is in dire straits. I think the White Tiger kid saves her.
Buck and Heather have a very sexual choking exercise. To be continued?
BB and Daniel reveal things to each other. Her secret is out but he doesn't want to turn her in to Buck.
Big cliffhanger episode.
12
ChalupaBatmanMc013 days ago
+3
> So Jessica has power problems now? That's unfortunate.
Was wondering about this, she wiped the floor with the task force but then she couldn't hit Powell. Anyway, it was fun having her back.
3
suss2it1 day ago
+2
In the scene before that she told Matt that ever since she gave birth her powers have been going in and out. It’s why he was so aggressively interrogating her about her injuries.
2
hamsolo193 days ago
+3
Daniel is gonna die protecting BB for sure.
3
ChainLC3 days ago
+3
or he starts packing a gun and when Buck is about to move he shoots Buck instead. would be cool to see him with one of those little pistols that retracts into a sleeve. Ironic too because British spec ops wore them. I think Buck underestimates him. May go as far as carrying him out to the country to dig his own grave and Daniel ends up putting Buck in it.
3
jez1243 days ago
+2
It would be a good twist subvert expectations. That or Daniel sells BB out and she unceremoniously dies. Kinda would be in line withe Sheila selling out the police chief.
2
Conscious_Test_79543 days ago
+19
Unrelated to the episode but I'm kinda tired of people comparing this show unfavorably to the og Daredevil.
I agree is not as good (yet) but people keep talking of the og like it was perfect when it couldn't be further from the case.
Did people forget that show had a lot of pacing problems. The cinematography was also not as great and season 2 specially was a complete mess like the first season of born again.
19
Usorojnr2 days ago
+4
Honestly the rating Born again s2 asides is , Og DD s3 >> DD s1 >>>>>>>> Born again S1 >>> Og Dd s2.
Og daredevil season 2 was really bad ppl seem to forget. And this season of born again is seemingly close to Og season 1 in quality and if it sticks the ending, will be only second to Og s3 imho.
4
sergexz3 days ago
+8
This season is already better than netflix s2 and defenders too
8
Vadermaulkylo3 days ago
+6
…… People here will eat me alive but this show has been as good as the Netflix show since episode 8 of season 1 imo. I will say it didn’t quite come near its biggest peaks until a couple scenes in this episode though.
I feel like everyone thinks of the Punisher and Matt rooftop episode and the season 3 one take when they think of the Netflix show and compare every episode of this to those. When in actuality the typical episode of the Netflix show was about as good as the typical episode of season 2 of this show.
6
zeroxray3 days ago
+17
Bc the og season 3 ended on such a high that people forget. I remember that season was quite good too with the fake daredevil and I beat you fight with fisk
17
OutsideIndoorTrack3 days ago
+12
The revisionist history claiming the original show was perfect is pretty annoying. Back then we were begging the shows to be shorter
12
Vadermaulkylo3 days ago
+9
Can confirm !!! So glad you said this. I distinctly remember every single review and multiple comments in threads saying 13 episodes was way too much.
9
Trendelthegreat3 days ago
+5
OG season two was a “mess” that had a heavy dose of punisher (and foggy) to make up for it
BA season one was a “mess” that featured a cbs style villain of the week that was mad his parents made him do taekwondo
5
SnooDrawings78763 days ago
-6
Yeah they are equally both somehow sleepy and all over the place at the same time. I'm a big fan of Benson and Mooreheads work but damn. This feels like some daytime programming you find playing on some tv in a retirement home.
-6
theREVERSEsystem3 days ago
+28
Daredevil and Kingpin having an awesome fight scene and still two episodes left to go
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