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87 Comments

Unknownlegend6 3 days ago +25

28% pay rise was given to them btw. Doctors who finish their grad scheme earn just over 40K in their first year now - most grads are on 28-30K. Their argument is they want 20% additional pay rise to factor in all the inflation from 2008 - every public sector worker and every private sector employee wishes they can get pay rise to accommodate all the inflation since 2008

TheDuchessofQuim 3 days ago +36

40k is insanely low, I’d be complaining too.

Unknownlegend6 3 days ago +1

It’s not compared to the private sector graduates

LargeFish2907 3 days ago +14

"I don't get paid enough so neither should you"

lensandscope 2 days ago +6

those graduates should also strike.

TheDuchessofQuim 3 days ago +11

I’m sorry to hear that.

MN_Yogi1988 3 days ago +8

> Doctors who finish their grad scheme earn just over 40K in their first year now Is the cost for schooling cheaper in the UK? 40k seems very low compared to the USA (though our medical school puts them like 200-300k in debt)

Roobsi 3 days ago +17

to be completely fair, it's not far off what a first year intern earns in the states, and your student loans are much worse than ours. The difference is that US residency, whilst very, very intense, is much shorter, and over there an attending can easily earn 5-10x more than a consultant here. I'm a resident doctor in the UK, I'm on about £60k after escalations for night and weekend work are taken into account. I've been working for about 7 years, have another 6 at least in front of me before I make consultant, and my earnings will go to a smidge over 100k basic at that point (hard to estimate what the actual take home will be because it's very variable on hours). After 14 years of that it will eventually climb to about £140k basic but that's where it maxes out, and that's another 20 years down the line. And these strikes are about resident pay, which maxes out at about £74k basic. Sorry, pay scales for doctors and NHS workers generally are pretty finicky and complicated.

Dangerous-Sale3243 2 days ago +1

Seems like UK doctors could just immigrate to the USA after getting a free education and make bank. My doctor friend makes $650k.

Roobsi 2 days ago +1

I started reading for the step exams. But it's not straightforward at all to get from the UK to the US and with the new H1b visa fee it's... Not completely unrealistic, but a lot harder and less likely than it sounds

NonCreativeMinds 3 days ago +1

For the amount of schooling required to become a doctor, not to mention the immense responsibility placed upon you, that pay is horrendous. I’m a basic, run of the mill EMT in California and I make roughly 65-70,000 a year and my schooling was only 5 weeks (I did an accelerated program to be fair but still). I’m also currently in school to be a nurse and the starting pay for some of these hospitals are around 100,000. So, needless to say, I agree with the strike and I wholeheartedly believe you guys should be paid far more than what you are currently making.

Brapfamalam 3 days ago +3

The gov spends about £250-300k subsidising each Medical Students place and then the medical students will take on about £60-100k+ debt themselves (depending on living costs/away from home and unless their parents pay the fees and if it's a 5/6 year course) for the rest of it.

Ok_Swimmer8394 3 days ago +2

The majority of that 250k to 300k is eaten up my nhs trusts as placement fees, for services which are not explicitly allocated to medical students.

Brapfamalam 3 days ago +1

Well yes that's the cost for seconding and backfilling staff to pay for the medical capacity to provide the placement spot. It's the same even in the USA and basically every country in the world - the taxpayer subsides medical education as it's a vital service.

Ok_Swimmer8394 3 days ago +1

Yeah that's fine. I more wanted to point put it isn't purely being spent on education. A lot of it is dropped into general trust funding.

BoraxThorax 3 days ago +20

28% over 3 years during which inflation peaked at 10% in one of the years. This is on a background of sun inflationary pay rises since 2008.

Unknownlegend6 3 days ago +8

You cannot demand the salary of a booming economy while living in a stagnating one. No one not even the private sector has a right to 2008 purchasing power when the country's entire economic foundation has shifted

magve 3 days ago +13

Everyone who got a 30% raise over the past few years thinks it was based on merit and not an inflationary environment

Hungry_Orange666 3 days ago +3

Demand for medical care is growing rapidly, so they are expirencing boom in their part of economy. https://www.england.nhs.uk/future-of-human-resources-and-organisational-development/the-future-of-nhs-human-resources-and-organisational-development-report/evolving-to-meet-a-changing-world/#:~:text=There%20is%20more%20competition%20for,in%20the%20profession%20grow%20older.

Hendlton 3 days ago +3

The economy sure seems to still be booming for the landlords. Both the usual kind and the actual nobility which still inexplicably exists in England.

kmas420 1 day ago +1

You can demand what you want if you are essential workers with a unique and complex skill set.

Unknownlegend6 3 days ago +1

The Pay Restoration argument is fundamentally flawed because it assumes doctors should be immune to the last 15 years of global economic history

drivingagermanwhip 3 days ago +2

I vaguely remember a pandemic where they saved the world economy and millions of lives

RecentlyDeceased666 3 days ago

All the Drs I know refused to see patients during the pandemic. I had to move 15 hours away just to find Drs who would still see me for my on going treatment. Besides front line workers the other Drs abandoned us.

falilth 3 days ago +5

50k usd still seems low for a doctor to be fair. But yeah I do agree most people deserve massive pay bumps and taxing the actually rich more overall.

Unknownlegend6 3 days ago -5

A doctor pension is worth millions of pounds in hidden salary that no private-sector worker will ever see. If you want 2008 pay, give up the gold-plated pension and see if you’re still better off

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Brapfamalam 3 days ago +11

Doctors are on the same exact pension scheme every other NHS worker is on - it's public sector, matched by civil service and teaching pensions too. That's the point of a public sector job, the gov strategically does it to maintain retention and recruitment. I work in the private sector and get quite large bonuses annually, people in the public sector never do. My total life earnings will completely outsrip anything comparable for a public sector job or any NHS Doctor at the same level and DB pension included and you put £40k into ISAs every year tax free from your increased earnings/bonuses as a couple. So what?

Unknownlegend6 3 days ago +1

You’re comparing discretionary, performance based bonuses which disappear the moment the economy dips or a company underperforms to a state guaranteed, inflation linked Defined Benefit pension. To match the retirement income of a senior doctor (often £60k+ a year for life), a private sector worker would need a pension pot worth roughly £2.5-3 million. Even with large bonuses, very few private sector employees will ever save enough post-tax income to build a pot that size. Furthermore, the same scheme argument is a red herring. 1/54th accrual rate of a Consultant’s salary is a massive transfer of wealth compared to 1/54th of a cleaner's salary. Claiming we're all on the same scheme ignores the sheer scale of the government contribution for high-earners

Brapfamalam 3 days ago +3

>Even with large bonuses, very few private sector employees will ever save enough post-tax income to build a pot that size. Yeah, you'll find that's because you're comparing doctors to cleaners. You'll have a better time comparing medics to private sector workers of the similar work ethic, nerve and intelligence. Even speaking as a higher earner there's scarce professions I can think of that saturates every minute of the day with needing the nerve to hold and take the highest responsibility for life and death decisions of dozens upon dozens of people repeatedly every day based on what's in your head and problem solving ability. There's a reason (maths literacy) medical school dropouts frequently go into investment banking and PE and don't do average office jobs or cleaning. I wouldn't want a doctor who's financially stressed operating on me and my life in their hands. These aren't replaceable regular jobs by regular replaceable people following standard operating procedures like a trained monkey.

Unknownlegend6 3 days ago

Comparing doctors to cleaners is a straw man. The real comparison is with the high-fliers you mentioned in PE or banking and the doctor still wins on total compensation because of the risk asymmetry. A private-sector worker with the same nerve can be fired on a Tuesday if the market dips. They shoulder 100% of the risk for their own retirement, battling 45% tax and market volatility to build a £3M pot just to match a Consultant’s floor. The doctor has near total job security and a state guaranteed, inflation linked income that functions as a massive hidden salary the taxpayer has to underwrite forever. To say doctors need gold-plated pensions plus a 35% pay rise to stop doctors from being financially stressed is a joke when they're already in the top 3% of earner Other high-stakes professionals like pilots, engineers, senior criminal defence lawyers manage life and death responsibility without demanding the taxpayer act as a personal hedge fund for their retirement It’s not about work ethic; it’s about the fact that the state is providing a level of wealth and certainty that the private sector market literally cannot replicate for its own top tier

Brapfamalam 3 days ago +7

>The doctor has near total job security and a state You started the Cleaner strawman...Yep because they worked for it and put their 20s and early 30s on hold to qualify through prof reg exams. If it were easy everyone would do be able to do it and not less than 0.01% of the population. Not really - my sister's an NHS consultant and I went from fintech into infrastructure. I've earned more at every step of the career ladder despite working a fraction of the hours and still earn more even though she's 10 years ahead - same for my wife and those of our social group who are medics, they don't earn alot at all. I'm fairly confident our pension + ISA pots will be significantly bigger too. In any case doesn't mean much if you can't by a decent house and settle down whilst you still have your legs and can start a family - ironically one of the biggest problems with GPs and poor patient outcomes is the concept of family doctor has disappeared as younger docs can't afford to buy houses so move around constantly and empirically leads to worse patient outcomes. Yeah your attitude is why the NHS is unsustainable and will be disappearing our lifetime. We pay peanuts via tax for healthcare, the UK population is going to have to painfully learn why most advanced western nations with similar demographics pay significantly more per capita for healthcare. Germans pay nearly 50% more per head per person annually ($9300 per head Vs $5400 for us) and have done for the most of the last half century so the investment delta is compounded year on year. Unless you pay for private healthcare ontop of tax, you're getting a huge d******* on a health bill compared to comparitor nations. Part of that priveledge you enjoy of dirt low taxes is because doctors upto even consultants are now paid so little.

BoraxThorax 3 days ago +3

>Near total total job security Hahaha Last year almost 50% of post foundation year 2 doctors did not go straight into training, competition ratios were as high as 20:1 for some specialties. Coupled with consultant job freezes up and down the country there's no guarantee of employment like the past. Career progression is also linked to employment. You don't get progress in pay unless you're in a formal training program or can demonstrate significant clinical professional development which of course you have to do in your own time and pay out of pocket for courses, exams etc. Try telling a post-CCT neurosurgeon who is fighting for a post to stay in employment for meagre 50-60k (after decades of training).

RadiantIOrange5983 3 days ago +2

The public simply don't deserve doctors. They do nothing but spit in their faces.

WishIWasThatClever 3 days ago +3

Then every public sector employee and every private sector employee should also strike. And we should support them just as we should the doctors standing up for themselves.

Unknownlegend6 3 days ago +3

lol so everyone gets pay rise. What do you think is going to happen to inflation

WishIWasThatClever 3 days ago +8

I believe a core tenant a civil society requires is…being civil to one another. Fighting each other isn’t going to solve the problem. Being divided against each other only serves the ultra wealthy that need division at our level to further their wealth. Blaming the doctors for standing up for themselves does nothing to your bank account.

lensandscope 2 days ago +1

as long as your pay increases more than inflation you’re good

drivingagermanwhip 3 days ago

> Doctors who finish their grad scheme earn just over 40K in their first year now I don't know what year you live in but that's not very much Inflation matching pay rises are the baseline. You make no argument for why everyone should get a paycut and just say we should accept it. With all due respect, you're either a bot or a moron

Unknownlegend6 3 days ago +3

Calling £40k not very much for a 23-year-old starting their career is a massive slap in the face to the 70% of the UK that earns less than that after a lifetime of work. The median UK salary is £35k. Dismissing a starting wage that’s already 15% above the national average and 40% higher than most other grads isn't fighting for the workers, it's pure greed. Everyone wants 2008-adjusted pay, but it hasn't happened for nurses, teachers, or the private sector. Demanding an extra 20% on top of an already historic 28% rise isn't matching a baseline, it’s demanding a total insulation from reality that no one else in the country gets. I’m not arguing for pay cuts; I’m pointing out the massive disparity in expectatios

drivingagermanwhip 3 days ago +7

You're underpaid. They're underpaid. They're fighting for fair pay. You're fighting for them not to have it for some reason. It's illegal in this country to run a solidarity strike so without breaking the law, this is what they can do to improve conditions for workers.

Ok_Swimmer8394 3 days ago -2

Well we aren't like other grads are we? We represent the top decile of intelligence. We have responsibility for people's lives. We work 50 to 60 hours a week including nights and weekends. We spent 5 to 6 years studying far more intensly than most other 3 year undergraduate programs save maybe engineering. That 28% rise still puts us far below raises of other professions when you look over the past decade, hence the campaign is "pay restoration".

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drivingagermanwhip 3 days ago +2

I got £28k as an engineering grad in 2011 and medicine is much more difficult and essential than what I do. The guys who quit engineering to do finance started on £50k because professional work outside of finance just does not pay in this country.

FitSuccotash5025 2 days ago +2

If your so clever why didn’t you do a degree which prioritises your ambition which is clearly being very rich.

Ok_Swimmer8394 2 days ago -1

Sorry for wanting to help people and be wealthy. Personifying the talI poppy mentality. Imean I did. I assumed wages would keep up with market rate. Don't worry I moved abroad and am now very rich and still clever. I'm sure that bothers you too. I hope you get to find out how clever disrespecting and underpaying doctors as a public policy is.

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Unknownlegend6 3 days ago +2

The top decile ego trip is embarrassing. There are thousands of Oxbridge and Russell Group grads in Engineering, Finance, Architecture, and Law who had the same top A level grades and could have easily walked into med school, but they don't walk around demanding the public insulate them from national inflation. You forget that med school is 90% memorisation Intelligence isn't a currency you can trade for immunity from a global economic downturn. You’re not the only ones with responsibility, you’re not the only ones with degrees, and you’re certainly not the only ones working 60-hour weeks. The difference is everyone else from the engineers designing the infrastructure you use to the nurses working right next to you understands that a 48% total pay rise in this economy is a fantasy If your entire argument for restoration is that you’re smarter than the taxpayers who fund your salary, you aren't just out of touch, you’re actively proving why the public is losing sympathy for the strikes. Using your "intelligence" to justify why you deserve more than a fireman or a teacher isn't the win you think it is

Brapfamalam 3 days ago +1

>could have easily walked into med school You don't get into med school on grades do you? Any trained monkey can get all A stars and As at A-level. You have to score high enough on the logic and aptidude tests, socially intelligent enough to be able to hold a conversation, bat away abstract questions and not be a total weirdo with decent EQ in the interview stages that Interviewers can smell a mile off. Med and dentistry are basically the two truly universally competitive degree courses in the country by ratio. I did an engineering degree at Imperial but if I went to any other Russell group uni most don't even require an interview. The worst medic from the worst university would probably walk my degree stream at Imperial but I can guarantee you only a fraction of our year could cope on a medical degree - let alone get in! (We aren't the most socially aware bunch always)

Ok_Swimmer8394 3 days ago -2

Those thousands of oxbridge and Russel group lawyers are also very intelligent and compensated fairly in fields like law and finance as they should be. But you've selected a very high performing subset of the public and uni students in general. Could the average person or even uni student get into medicine? No. I would say responsibility for human life and 60 hour work weeks are pretty unique features of the medical field. Of course there are a few other professions. Your comment about memorization shows how little you respect the work, dedication, and practical exposure medicine demands. I didn't say doctors are smarter than the taxpayers. Although that is likely true. Typical "you think yor betta than me" outrage. Yes, Intelligence, training duration, knowledge, work demand, dedication are all independently and collectively legitimate basis for determining a salary. Teachers and fireman absolutely deserve to be payed well too. What do you think, should a teacher be paid more than a doctor?

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evange 3 days ago

UK doctors are also kept in a perpetual residency "junior doctor" state for much longer than in the US. Regardless of how much cheaper school is in the UK, $40k/year is insulting.

The_WarDoge 3 days ago

Except they are not just every private sector employee. They are doctors. Every doctor around the world should be striking for better pay and better working conditions.

Ch35hir3C47 3 days ago +21

I would usually support the Doctors over this issue anytime. However considering the large raise they got on their already solid salaries, when so many others have not seen even half the increase..... just makes them sound rather greedy.

Unknownlegend6 3 days ago +13

The threat of everyone moving to Australia is a bluff Australia healthcare system is finite - it cannot absorb 50,000 UK doctors. Most who go for a F3 year come back. Using a temporary working holiday as a reason to bankrupt the NHS with a 35% pay hike is emotional blackmail, not economic policy

Ok_Swimmer8394 3 days ago +5

Don't be so sure. There's Canada, the usa, Australia, New Zealand, Germany. All places my former classmates and trainees have left to including me.

Unknownlegend6 3 days ago +4

Every professional in a globalised economy has the option to move for more money. Engineers move to Dubai, tech workers move to Silicon Valley, and bankers move to Switzerland. The difference is they don't hold the UK taxpayer hostage for a 48% raise while they pack their bags

Ok_Swimmer8394 3 days ago +1

I'm not holding the UK taxpayer hostage nor is anyone who has left. We're gone. Lawyers, bankers, politicians all make more in the UK than Canada or Australia. Doctors are the exception. The UK does not value its doctors, there is a choice to not compensate fairly but when the doctors leave, don't be surprised.

Unknownlegend6 3 days ago +2

Comparing yourself to bankers and lawyers is a joke. Bankers and lawyers get paid by private clients in a competitive market; they aren’t funded by a struggling taxpayer during a cost-of-living crisis. If they or their company underperforms, they’re fired. If the market dips, their bonuses vanish. You want the high-end salary of an investment banker with the absolute job security and gold-plated pension of a civil servant. You can’t have both. If you’ve already left, then why are you still here arguing about a budget you don't contribute to? If the UK is so terrible and you’re so valued abroad, go enjoy your life in Perth and stop trying to guilt-trip the people back home who are actually working to keep the system running The fact is, medical school applications in the UK are still oversubscribed every single year. The system will continue without you.

Ok_Swimmer8394 3 days ago +1

I suppose I feel bad for colleages that are stuck there. I would also like to be in my home , but I'd also like to have a house and worked in a system that respects my work. I also want the uk public to realize how great of a deal they're getting. I suppose I'm trying to enlighten you on how thinks are backwards in the uk, but I guess if you're content to go down with the ship. Fine, drop the private outliers then. Have a look at what a Canadian public prosecutor makes or what an Australian government accountant makes relative to their doctors. See what a Canadian MP makes vs what a doctor makes. Compare those ratios to the uk. I'll help you: Starting Canadian doctor 400k Vs 200k for a Canadian MP. Vs Canadian government employed lawyer 137k. Vs Canadian government employed chartered accountant 120k That's 2:1 and 2.9:1 and 3.3:1 Now the UK: MPs 1.1:1 and 1.7:1 and 1.3:1 Keep in mind these ratios assume the doctor is a full fledged consultant. Note Canadian doctors earn multiples of comparable publicly employed professionals.

Unknownlegend6 3 days ago +2

In Canada and Australia, most GPs aren't employees like in the UK. they are private contractors. They have to pay for their own clinics, staff, insurance, and they have zero job security. You’re comparing a high risk, high overhead business model to a UK system where the taxpayer guarantees your salary, your training, and a pension that is still among the best in the world. the public is the reason you have a job. The taxpayer funded your subsidised degrees, specialist training and provides the entire infrastructure you work. You aren't a martyr, and you aren't underpaid relative to the people actually funding your lifestyle. You’re just someone who wants the perks of a private US style healthcare salary while keeping the safety net of a British socialist one. You can't have both.

Ok_Swimmer8394 3 days ago +1

Canada is a public system and they fund their medical students training too. All these countries fund university degrees, including for the lawyers and bankers. Yeah, I'm not a martyr. I don't want to be one. Yes I am a private contractor in Canada as are most GPs even in the UK and Australia. All doctors have job security, there is nowhere without demand. I'm paid under the LFP model. I am guaranteed a minimum of 385k and the government covers overhead. Salaried positions also exist in Canada with pensions. I could switch to that model and still make between 300k and 340k. Specialties cap out at 660k in the public system, yes with a pension and overhead on a salary model.

gabagoolwallah 3 days ago +1

The public is the reason you have a job? What a sick thing to say. I sincerely hope you are not a healthcare professional. Delusional. I bet we can let all the doctors leave the UK and you could take over for half their salaries and spend your life serving the taxpayers. Since you seem to be the pillar of british society. What, pray tell, is your profession?

ToughImprovement276 3 days ago +2

I have quite a few medical friends moving to middle income countries too as the work is more fulfilling and the wages go much further despite being much lower. So i have a few friends in Caribbean islands and South America and quite a few in south east Asia.

drivingagermanwhip 2 days ago +1

you forget how many doctors we import. They can just go home. It's not necessarily a big move at all for them

LargeFish2907 3 days ago +7

I don't think they're greedy in the slightest. The reality is that other countries pay them more and treat them better. Doctors are incredibly important, are under a lot of stress, have to be intelligent and well educated and are doing a job where someone could die if they make a mistake. I just don't see why people are expecting them to work in the UK whilst being called greedy and being treated awfully. The entitlement is insane. Many are already leaving because they aren't being paid what they're worth.

[deleted] 3 days ago +6

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FitSuccotash5025 3 days ago +3

I don’t see doctors supporting other nhs workers. 1st year Resident doctors get more than experienced nurses, physios etc and can be on 78k by year 3. By the time their consultants beyond 100k, did they get into medicine for money or to help people?

RadiantIOrange5983 3 days ago +5

They are severely underpaid, far more underpaid than any other category. And why wouldn't they get more than experienced nurses? It seems you have no conception of how difficult and demanding it is to become a doctor and to work as one.

Ok_Swimmer8394 3 days ago +2

Firstly, a 3rd year doctor does not make 78k. An ST6-ST8 will be on 73k, and they are 8 to 10 years out of medical school. Furthermore, I was a nurse and doctors have far more responsibility and knowledge and deserve to be compensated for that. Here is the wage scale: https://www.bma.org.uk/pay-and-contracts/pay/resident-doctors-pay-scales/pay-scales-for-resident-doctors-in-england Is there some kind of incompatibility between wanting to help people and to be well compensated? 100k is not a high salary for people who are extremely specialized and have enormous responsibility.

FitSuccotash5025 3 days ago +2

100k is not a high salary.. You’ve lost me and 75% of the population. Nurse average salary is 40k Teacher average salary is 38k Uk average salary is 38k Leaders of councils are on 40k. They make decisions for hundreds of thousands of people. Doctors are great and I am very greatful for their work but let’s not pretend they are hard done by with their salaries. Every doctor I know is doing v well financially.

Ok_Swimmer8394 3 days ago +2

No, the majority of the population does not have some kind of inferiority complex. Anyone can be a city councillor. My father did it for a bit and he would confirm doctoring was harder. Compare us to someone who spent 5 to 6 years in school, with a highly selective entry process, and then an additional 8 to 10 years of training. Of course there aren't many positions like that. The standard shouldn't be that we aren't hard done. Compared to similar professions in the uk and our peers abroad the salary is poor.

FitSuccotash5025 3 days ago

Anyone can lead a council with budgets of 100million? Ahaha you sound so arrogant. Go look at polling on your strikes btw. Again if you are motivated by money you probably should have used your big brain to go into finance instead of medicine

Ok_Swimmer8394 3 days ago

Yeah, you, me, anyone can run. There was an 18 year old who did it. I'm surprised you didn't know this.

FitSuccotash5025 2 days ago +1

Why are you a doctor?

Ok_Swimmer8394 2 days ago +1

Im interested in medicine, to help people, and to be compensated well so my family and I can enjoy our lives.

Enjoyer_of_Cake 3 days ago +1

The general strike implies the other nhs workers also go on strike.

LargeFish2907 3 days ago +1

If they get to year 3. Many don't because of lack of training posts and "can be on 78k" doesn't mean "is on 78k" . It shouldn't matter why people do medicine.

FitSuccotash5025 3 days ago +1

If they don’t get training posts they can locum, which is very good money. And yes sorry, if you do a vocational job it should matter why. I’d be concerned if teachers got into teaching for holidays only or civil servants just fancied a nice pension. If people want to pursue money there are other jobs they can aim for. I am not against people striking for better pay or working conditions but I feel doctors need to read the room. They are clearly better paid than the vast majority of uk workers will ever dream of being (even 2 years in) and work alongside nurses and other health care professionals who deal with the same stress and conditions without the pay. A little bit of perspective would go along way

Hendlton 3 days ago +1

"Others have it worse!" isn't a legitimate argument. The poorest people in the west are still in the top 30% of the world's richest. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't demand more when there's clearly plenty to go around.

Ecstatic_Wasabi_5166 3 days ago +7

Six-day strike is like a broken clock - even when it's not working it's still making a point

Boop0p 3 days ago +5

Anyone not supporting this needs to explain exactly how with an aging population, resident doctors are worth less in real terms than they were worth 20 years ago. I don't care that they have already had one pay rise in the past couple of years. If your salary/wages have dropped in real terms since then, that's a problem between you and your employer/industry. Doctors should be one of the most valued professions in society.

Unknownlegend6 3 days ago +2

The 2008 pay restoration argument is pure cherry picking, almost everyone in the UK is worth less in real terms than they were at the peak of the pre-crash bubble. doctors aren't a special case. If you want to talk about value in an aging population, look at the total package. A doctor gets near total job security and a pension worth a £3M private pot, plus six figure base salary as a consultant. To match that value in the private sector, you’d need to be an absolute elite earner fighting 45% tax and market volatility every single day You don't get to demand a hedge fund salary while the taxpayer acts as your personal safety net. Other high-stakes professionals like pilots or engineers handle life-and-death stakes without demanding a state-guaranteed, inflation-proofed life for 30 years after they retire. If doctors want to be valued like private-sector high fliers they should start by accepting private-sector risks

Boop0p 3 days ago +3

>The 2008 pay restoration argument is pure cherry picking, almost everyone in the UK is worth less in real terms than they were at the peak of the pre-crash bubble. doctors aren't a special case. Yeah, almost everyone. Who is better off I wonder. I said >If your salary/wages have dropped in real terms since then, that's a problem between you and your employer/industry. Which you seem to have completely ignored. I don't begrudge doctors for fighting for better conditions. If anyone should be a special case it's them, they ought to be leading the charge for better equality. Why are you defending hedge fund managers' salaries while denigrating doctors for wanting the same? Do you think protecting the wealth of billionaires is more valuable to society as a whole than people who save the lives of you and your loved ones? I do not. The fact that you describe paying tax as "fighting tax" tells me everything I need to know about your political outlook.

LargeFish2907 3 days ago

Crab bucket mentality

VogonSoup 3 days ago -3

No sector’s wages have stayed ahead of inflation every year for the past 20 years. What does an aging population have to do with it? They work the same hours.

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Brapfamalam 3 days ago +2

>What does an aging population have to do with it? The work is much more intense. Before my parents retired they'd commonly see 8-10 patients in a shift. My sister is a doctor now and regularly sees 20-30 patients a shift. Older people have comorbidities and are much more complex to manage - higher proportion of older people means even the patients themselves as cases are more intense beyond the insane increase in patients they now see.

Potential-Bird-5826 3 days ago +1

My dad has had great care from doctors, nurses and support staff. We should be supporting doctors. We can do with fewer boondoggles and more doctors

Nikevic246 2 days ago +1

Doctors are worth investing in, especially when it is in the government's perogative to keep quality of care and standards high, as well as attracting the next generation into the profession. Doctors are currently are being extorted and overstretched, working on average 3 full time roles in their one job and getting paid for only one job, constantly revising for and performing practicums for never ending mandatory exams with a high pass threshold (forcing many retakes) that they they pay for out-of-pocket per exam sitting. If we held these same standards and gave that little pay to, let's say bankers, they would be striking too. All of this after COVID where many lost their lives on the frontline of the pandemic, trying to keep the rest of us alive while the majority of us cowered at home and only clapped for their sacrifices. If you don't agree, please put your disagreement in practice and go private for your medical needs.

Happy_Attitude_8627 3 days ago +1

I had an appointment for a service at the hospital today. I was seen, had an evaluation and then had to go to xray for an xray of course and was out within three quarters of an hour total. Best service ive had in years.

Ok_Swimmer8394 3 days ago +1

Is your point that even with the junior doctor strike your service was fast? Junior doctors and no doctor in general is involved in taking xrays. I wouldn't expect it to take any more or less time with a strike.

Doctors in England begin six-day strike after rejecting government's pay, workforce deal

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