Not their first sham mass trial:
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c9wjk00dj5ro
>Despite Mr Mata’s protestations that he had never been in or worked for a gang, the troops detained him for “illicit association” – a catch-all term used under the State of Exception to round people up.
>His mother, Marcela Alvarado, hasn’t seen or heard from her son since that day.
>“The police told me I needed to bring evidence to prove his innocence, so I gathered up his high school diploma, the deeds to his land, his repayment receipts on his bank loan, a declaration from his employer as to his good character,” she explains, showing the BBC the documents, which experts say almost no Salvadorean gang member would possess.
>Her efforts were in vain.
>José Duval was tried alongside more than 350 other inmates in a mass trial which lasted just minutes. He was sentenced to an initial six months, which has since been extended indefinitely.
625
EPluribusButthole1 day ago
+55
Humans are such a plague
55
Jane__Delawney1 day ago
+33
The good ones aren’t
33
AudibleNod1 day ago
+594
>The attorney-general's office said 486 suspected MS-13 members were on trial for 47,000 crimes, including 29,000 homicides, committed between 2012 and 2022.
The biggest mass trial in American history was a sham trial during the Dakota War where over 300 men were convicted and sentenced to death. Abe Lincoln commuted most of the sentences.
594
Cow-Brown1 day ago
+157
So on average they each killed 60 people, or 6 people a year… riiiiiiiight
157
thestorkasaurus1 day ago
+137
Most of them only killed 1 or 2, but Murders Georg really pushed up the average
137
vicarooni11 day ago
+37
Murders Georg was an outlier adn shouldn't have been counted.
37
judgejuddhirsch1 day ago
+16
And a crime every 3 days per person
16
GundalfTheCamo1 day ago
+29
It's probably a rico type of thing where members of a criminal organization can be charged by crimes the whole organisation performs.
Or like the USA felony murder laws. Guy who loaned a car for murderers can catch a murder charge.
29
EPluribusButthole1 day ago
+4
Just gotta prove he knew what the car was going to be used for. He said/she said does not hold up in court.
Never text or call about criming, only face to face convos in 4ft of water, in an indoor pool, with Slayer playing at 11/10
Also... 2 people can never keep a secret. You interpret that anyway you want to.
4
techman7101 day ago
+2265
Guilty until proven innocent. Oh and we aren't allowing you to present any evidence. I'm sure most of them actually are guilty, but I'm also sure some of them arent.
2265
toggiz_the_elder1 day ago
+1090
Guilty people deserve a fair trial too.
1090
fresh-dork1 day ago
+254
they sure do, but the situation in el salvador was beyond fucked. i'm expecting that some people view this as an improvement over what came before
254
ctothel1 day ago
+415
The MAGAs genuinely believe it’s worth it.
They’ve forgotten what it means to live in a free country.
415
private_developer1 day ago
+312
I live in Ohio and served jury duty a couple of years ago. One of the questions the defense attorney asked us all during selection was "How many people agree with the statement, 'it is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer?"
Only about a quarter of us raised our hand. I knew then that we were truly toast.
312
DeliciousPastaSauce1 day ago
+286
I wonder what the response would be if the question was reframed to “Would you be willing to be that one innocent person who suffers as long as 99 guilty people are punished?”
286
1wikingman1 day ago
+189
People would say yes but they'd be lying.
189
ShadowShot051 day ago
+27
Definitely would be zero hands raised
27
buenonocheseniorgato1 day ago
+50
You underestimate how hypocritical and petty a regular jane/john doe can get.
50
ctothel1 day ago
+34
That’s horrifying.
34
fresh-dork1 day ago
+20
it's 10. that's the rule, not 100
20
[deleted]1 day ago
+6
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6
[deleted]1 day ago
-4
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-4
GodlessLittleMonster1 day ago
+8
Yeah it’s kind of an arbitrary question. It hits different as a declarative statement but in practical terms of course people are going to ask questions that complicate it.
8
Difficult-Rip-25801 day ago
+2
I'd rather they all go loose than the state destroy lives left and right for no reason. Edit: The wrongful convictions y'all want also let the criminals go free while stopping investigations.
Vigilantes and revenge will catch up to them eventually.
The innocent person is also a victim if locked up wrongfully making this a moot question.
Are you willing to serve life with no parole as long as one more murderer also gets locked up?
Actions are louder than words so if you say yes I'm going to need to see the news story about your protest incarceration to believe it.
2
ungovernable1 day ago
+127
The people of El Salvador think it’s worth it. It was one of the most dangerous countries in the Americas just a few years ago, with one of the highest violent crime rates. Now you can actually go outside after 7pm without worrying about being robbed or attacked.
Why do Americans make every issue on earth about their own domestic politics? Yes, it’s bad that your government sends random people to CECOT for little reason. “Revert to your violent crime rate of a few years ago so that a few Americans aren’t unfairly deported” is not a tradeoff most Salvadorians would be willing to make.
127
SelfServeSporstwash1 day ago
+108
to be clear, an American is pointing this back to America because US politicians have literally pointed to this exact event as aspirational.
108
09f3jns1 day ago
-29
They are calling it inspirational because El Salvador had a 90% drop in their homicide rate in just 6 years.
-29
SelfServeSporstwash1 day ago
+23
As well as a several thousand percent increase in their false imprisonment rate and a slight increase drug smuggling, not a decrease.
Also… the VAST majority of the violent crime rate decrease dates back to 2012… they started doing this shit in 2022. The reach it takes to attribute an effect to a “cause” that took place a full decade after the crime rate rapidly declined is f****** *wild*
23
youarelookingatthis1 day ago
+64
It’s it weird how everyone who is seemingly fine with these human rights abuses aren’t the ones being thrown into prison with no real evidence?
64
09f3jns1 day ago
+31
Yes it's weird that people not covered head to toe in gang tattoos, whose families were getting beheaded by people who were, don't feel remorse.
31
temujin941 day ago
+90
Bukele has installed himself as dictator, he has used the military to enforce policy and he has overturned the term limit for presidents and has suspended most civil liberties.
In addition the independent organisations that tracked crime rate in El Salvador has been replaced by his own government, so any figures produced are highly dubious. Which is why the crime rate statistics coming out of El Salvador read like North Korean government statistics.
He probably has reduced the crime rate, in return they have a dictator and likely at some point a civil war to remove said dictator. Then we'll see how worthwhile the crime rate being lowered was.
90
Apart_Animal_67971 day ago
+42
Right? creating a totalitarian system is f****** lunacy eventually the hens come to roost...
42
ArchdukeToes1 day ago
+20
And how many of these individuals were less gang members and more people he might have considered inconvenient. We’ve been down this road so many times before.
20
Nameless_American1 day ago
+77
I mean to be fair, their President made the choice to directly insert himself and his country into our domestic politics with the CECOT debacle, especially with his snarky social media commentary around people being deported to his special dungeon.
I’m all for El Salvador making its own choices to deal with their crime issue; not my country, I don’t live there and I have no idea how bad things truly are. But let’s not pretend that Bukele did not choose to directly become an active participant in the entire drama.
77
yourlittlebirdie1 day ago
+52
The German people also supported what happened in the 1930s, because it was only “those people” who were suffering for it.
52
FrapOnOldschool1 day ago
-7
Now those people are doing to it gaza
-7
yourlittlebirdie1 day ago
+14
No no, they just meant “never again *to us*.”
14
SnoopRion691 day ago
+51
Americans care because we sent someone down there and said they were MS-13 for wearing a Chicago Bulls hat.
51
ArtisanSamosa1 day ago
+29
I dont know but i almost always see your comment word for word when it comes to this topic. Feels almost like a talking point thats triggered at the mention of the topic.
29
-nutz1 day ago
+2
Frogs in a pot.
2
ProofByVerbosity1 day ago
+11
I think youre even undeeplaying it. It was like that for decades. I know first hand quite a few people from there who came here and all thier family members didnt make it here either from something to do with the civil war or from the gangs that took over after it ended.
11
JollyToby02201 day ago
+5
It’s pretty much agreed there will come major problems decades from now.
5
ctothel1 day ago
+23
The fact that Salvadorians have come to believe in pointlessly punishing innocent people is not a brag.
23
[deleted]1 day ago
-22
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-22
yourlittlebirdie1 day ago
+40
“If we have to send 1% of the population to concentration camps to improve life for the rest of us, isn’t that worth it?”
Do you not see where this kind of logic leads?
40
Tyrrox1 day ago
+16
George Takei has quite a bit of experience with that train of logic
16
Plusisposminusisneg1 day ago
-11
If 0.95% of your population is a member of the kill, r***, control gang then that makes perfect sense, yes?
This question depends entirely on the context surrounding it.
Gangs and mafias as parallel governments require a form of warfare to deal with and in every war there are civilian casualties. The question then becomes is your nation prepared to go to that war.
You are implying some idealistic society where 1% is at random scooped up and sent to some camps to increase GDP by 5% over the next decade which is not the case.
-11
yourlittlebirdie1 day ago
+10
And how do you know whether those specific people are the gang members?
10
bishop3751 day ago
+16
Can you prove every single person in this “trial,” is actually guilty of the crimes with which they have been charged?
16
Nilla_Please1 day ago
+3
I can fully see this point of view but this also is a very inaccurate view of el salvadore at the moment. it is not sunshine and daisies for the actual people of El salvadore at the moment
You can't spin a mass trial in a good way buddy, no matter how hard you try. Any country doing that isn't truly safe and it's both sad and funny how you can't see that.
17
MultiMillionMiler1 day ago
+4
Living in constant fear of being wrongly rounded up by a tyrannical government would be just as bad quality of life. At least with the criminals I would have a somewhat reasonable chance to fight back or escape or hide..etc, but no one ever leaves that CECOT prison or is given a chance to prove innocence. Your life is 100% over if you get arrested for anything there with 0 chance of ever getting out. So I'd rather just take my chances with the random criminals at that point.
4
squeejeebeejee1 day ago
+5
This comment deserves an award for running through a****** dictatorial talking points at record speed
Edit: clarity
5
Fast-Government-43661 day ago
+6
It’s down 95%, just like 99% voted for Kim jong-un.
Don’t forget, he fired the people in charge of the data, and installed loyalists. Dudes a dictator and you trust his word?
6
FlyingAce10151 day ago
+4
Annnd found the fascist.
4
Reyna_girlie1 day ago
+30
On the other hand El Salvador was in a whole lot worse of a situation then most western countries when it comes to gang crime. I really dont like this either but I cant exactly blame the Salvadorian people themselves for not feeling sympathy
30
big_daddy681 day ago
+9
Until the tables would be turned. Anyone photographed wearing a MAGA hat is a felon, no guns or voting. The we would hear nothing but my due process.
9
Upsideisdownhere1 day ago
-4
Their ppl are far from free. They live in fear of the cartels and that's why so many applied for asylum in the USA. I'm sure good ppl will be wrongly punished, but the reporting does state that crime and safety have rapidly improved so the end may justify the means, as long as they save their country.
-4
Extension-Click-82711 day ago
+10
Making this about America is so fuckin American lol.
This has to be one of the worst news sources on the internet, my god what is wrong with you people
10
CheezyBeanBurrito1 day ago
+25
Considering the US president had people sent to cecot from the US, and the US paid for that, it’s a fair point to bring up.
25
sapphicsandwich1 day ago
+10
El Salvador inserted itself into US politics and are working directly with the US regime. Everything they do now in any way tangentially involving the US is now about the US too. Also, don't they owe the US some oil? It's about time they start paying their debts.
10
MiaowaraShiro1 day ago
+5
Conservatives never believe conservatism could victimize *them*.
5
CastingsForThee1 day ago
Im not Maga. I would rather live under Super Man than Batman.
0
09f3jns1 day ago
+2
I'm left of half this site, but El Salvador was the dead opposite of a free country last decade.
2
thatguy4251 day ago
+1
Isn’t this El Salvador?
1
ctothel1 day ago
+2
Yes, and MAGAs support it.
2
SwiftCEO1 day ago
+2
I’m sure the locals think it’s worth it too. The country was being destroyed by these gangs.
2
Carlin471 day ago
You want to ask the people of El Saalvador how they feel about living in a free country? It sure as hell wasn't before these dudes got locked up
0
Zestyclose-Novel11571 day ago
-50
Maybe so but doing this has done a lot of good for El Salvador. There might be some caught in the crossfire and that’s unfortunate but I’m not sure a lot of people there would say it was better before. People were fleeing El Salvador because of the danger.
It’s easy to judge when it isn’t our problem.
-50
gjp111 day ago
+40
That's cool but you could do all this while still giving people fair trials.
This is propaganda bullshit.
40
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+44
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-6
American_PissAnt1 day ago
+32
I accuse you of being a MS-13 gang member! You are to be imprisoned for life. May god have mercy on your soul. This is for the best of the country
32
RickyNixon1 day ago
+12
It is our problem.
El Salvador was weakened by a civil wars we funded, and then taken over by gangsters we mass deported there from Los Angeles in the 90s.
The root cause of this problem is far-right American policy. And the authoritarian power grab you’re justifying will not lead to long term stability in El Salvador
12
CHOLO_ORACLE1 day ago
+3
Crime rate was declining there before the dictator showed up. People like you are just doing propaganda for him
3
Fast-Government-43661 day ago
+2
Dictatorships are never good. More harm will be caused by the civil war that will happen
2
Nilla_Please1 day ago
+5
I can see your view points but it shows you dont know any el salvadorians. They are hiding many homicides and deaths currently, the stats are fluffed by an oppressive government that has revoked many of their liberties as citizens. They are killing and imprisioning political opposition. The government has allied with gangs, and most believe ms13 is one of them. It is one thing to think that the us stance on these arrests and deportations are ok as an American, but to say that el salvadore has benefited from this is a double edged sword. Yes those who are powerful and rely on the us for their companies has benefited, but the reality for the rest of the country has suffered very similar to before. it is now just hidden.
5
thetransportedman1 day ago
-15
That's a fundamental difference between progressives and conservatives. If given 10 people and 1 is innocent, and you had to choose full prosecution or let them go, conservatives would rather prosecute all 10 while progressives would rather let them all go.
Similar situation to food aid. If 1 of the 10 are not actually starving, conservatives won't want to fund feeding all 10 while progressives would.
-15
Several_Hour_3471 day ago
+7
Lmao who says you have to let them all go? You a moron?
7
PutinsRustedPistol1 day ago
+18
My favorite part of your comment is where you literally make up the beliefs of both sides and treat it as fact.
18
thetransportedman1 day ago
+1
Conservatives were fine with Kilmar Garcia, Jordin Melgar, and Frengel Reyes being deported for gang activity despite any evidence of it.
Last year the Trump admin did cuts to SNAP due to non proven evidence of substantial fraud.
1
PutinsRustedPistol1 day ago
+1
You realize that the article is about *El Salvador*, right?
That’s a completely different country with their own politics.
1
seanrm921 day ago
+304
A trial of 500 people is a sham. This is not justice.
304
ChocolateChingus1 day ago
+84
Everything in El Salvador is closer to a military operation under marshal law. The government had basically lost control prior to 2018-2019.
84
HerculesIsMyDad1 day ago
+27
Prosecutor: Sir, could you please point to who you saw fleeing the crime scene on that night?
Witness: Yeah, it was those 500 guys over there.
27
GundalfTheCamo1 day ago
+19
Italy pulled off the "maxi trial" against the mafia in the 80s and 90s. 485 defendants.
19
seanrm921 day ago
+49
My comment stands.
49
Kondikteur1 day ago
+135
>"We are going to put them on trial, and we are going to settle a historic debt,"
And here I thought trials were about justice. Silly me.
135
Kaiisim1 day ago
+160
Just note that since El Salvador "cracked down" on Ms-13 there has been no change in thoughput of drugs.
So most likely they're working with one gang to get rid of the other ala guilani and the mafia
160
jlbp3371 day ago
+101
[bukele been working with gangs](https://youtu.be/FuOnV9FGH5U?si=fDk2eVBiWu1NiGrG)
101
Aviri1 day ago
+34
Absolutely shocked a dictator would do such a thing. Flabbergasted even.
34
Yatty331 day ago
+164
The rate of violent crime has dropped dramatically, however.
164
ToneSquare37361 day ago
+67
that's what happens when one gang seizes total control of an area. like with los cabrera sarabia in durango.
67
Cantomic661 day ago
+42
But the official numbers aren’t truly accurate as the El Salvador government has a more limited scope of what they consider homicide compared to other countries now. For example, they intentionally excluded victims in mass graves, police related homicides and have been less transparent on how they collect their date. If any other authorization government did this, people would call out how obvious that government is manipulating their data to push an agenda.
42
spleeble1 day ago
+40
If you don't count all the people getting locked up in forever prison.
40
AP_in_Indy1 day ago
+16
Don’t count it then. I think it’s valuable to note violent crime has dropped.
16
DigCautious44051 day ago
+34
Violence committed by the state is still violence
34
spleeble1 day ago
+28
Not counting it is a problem
28
Galahad_the_Ranger1 day ago
+19
It’s usually how it goes with this violence crackdowns. The easiest way is not to get rid of cartels, but to work alongside one and let them dominate the area. Only one cartel means no gang wars, so the violent crime goes down.
19
pokwef1 day ago
+37
Ah yes this seem totally fair for each person on trial.
37
jferments1 day ago
+16
I'm sure that was a very fair trial.
16
Chang-San1 day ago
+12
How do you even have a fair mass trial, literally a kangaroo court.
12
War91 day ago
+26
Zero rights. He is really trying to be the next Right wing dictator.
26
[deleted]1 day ago
+14
[removed]
14
furrysalesman691 day ago
-3
So you’re going to kill civilians just to prove a point? At that point, why are you fighting for “justice”, when your own government is sending people to this prison?
-3
[deleted]1 day ago
+14
[deleted]
14
busty_snackleford1 day ago
+75
It’s kind of hard to prove anything when there’s no semblance of due process.
75
IntoTheCommonestAsh1 day ago
+11
Well, if this is meant to be their trial, then presumably they haven't been proven guilty in court yet.
Unless this is about extra offenses beyond what they're in for, but considering they arrest people just for tattoos, I'm not confident it's that.
11
PaleCommission1501 day ago
+9
The country just replaced one gang with another, this one backed by the voters unfortunately. El Salvador has sunk into a dictatorship. Are many of those guys guilty, probably, but everyone deserves due process, evidence based rulings and innocent until proven guilty.
9
PatrioticPariah1 day ago
+2
How many of them were falsely accused immigrants from the US?
2
Cfter1 day ago
+14
I understand nuance but its so easy so sit in a cozy home and critisice what is going on in El Salvador. Its not so easy when you have daughters and sisters being raped. Friend beings killed on the street with nothing to be done. I find the distraught attitude some people have about these gang members to be really insulting to the people that suffered from the hands of these gangs.
14
JWAdvocate831 day ago
+58
The point of a trial is to determine whether the accused *actually did* the things you just described. Otherwise it becomes just as easy to write off the lives of folks who did nothing wrong, and never had a fair opportunity to be heard.
58
TraditionalGap11 day ago
+37
>I find the distraught attitude some people have about these gang members
You only get to be smugly confident of their identity when you've actually put in some effort to identify them.
What are we all discussing here again?
37
AbbyRitter1 day ago
+46
Yeah, right? So what if a few hundred innocents get caught in the crossfire? So what if we never ask for proof that everyone convicted of a crime is guilty? So what if the government can just decide you committed a crime with no evidence or public oversight?
I mean, criminals are bad, so we should let the government have unlimited power to deal with them, right? Sure, some innocent people might be falsely convicted, but hey, at least it probably won't be you, right? You hog's a***.
46
CTC421 day ago
+16
It saddens me that "prosecute the guilty, exonerate the innocent" is considered an example of "nuanced thinking". Something terrible has happened to the human brain.
16
eXAt881 day ago
+4
Look you are entitled to your opinion but I hope you feel the same way when I (yes me personally) rounds up your kids and puts them in a camp
4
[deleted]1 day ago
+25
[deleted]
25
Ok_Situation64081 day ago
+13
He was released and returned to Venezuela last July. Along with hundreds of others who were sent there from the US. He is not part of this trial.
13
obliquemeak1 day ago
+13
My company has a footprint in El Salvador and I deal directly with a lot people who either live there or have family there. I’m yet to meet a single person who isn’t happy about what their president is doing. They understand it’s not perfect but they all agree it’s much better than the alternative and things have gotten much better.
13
Tyomke1 day ago
+19
Dudes with m13 tattoos all over their body and face are surely not part of any gang, just for funzies
Keep em there, at least people can live their lives now, cause of course of all of the previously elected rules were so helpful in getting rid of violence and not shamelessly stuffing their pockets and fleeing the country year after year
Keep crying for their rights all you want, Im hoping none of them ever leave that jail cell
19
DayleD1 day ago
-8
Your solution to people forcibly conscripted into a drug gang is to force them to live with the gang forever?
-8
ExoticWeapon1 day ago
-4
Perhaps our greatest philosophical question is why does any court have the authority to judge lay people when the wealthy see virtually zero repercussions?
On what grounds does a court system establish its authority? Threat of violence backed by the state?
-4
IrishPorpoise1 day ago
-2
The next Dem needs to make El Salvador a pariah state.
-2
Johnnadawearsglasses1 day ago
+1
I mean this is just like a war really. They are treating M-13 like a foreign enemy combatant. If you are part of the enemy, you are guilty by association.
1
Fit-Rate-39061 day ago
-3
A lot the people claiming civil rights violations do not understand that every country has their own set of laws. Most of the the people that were picked up had M13 tattoos. People got tired of being extorted and living in fear because of them, so f*** those guys.
-3
Y0___0Y1 day ago
-24
I’m so mad at El Salvador. The people there adore this dictator. Which would be fine, if he wasn’t working with Trump to give him a black site to torture people and imprison them for life with no trial outside of US jurisdiction.
I want El Salvador sanctioned to the stone age for this shit. Don’t make your celebration of extrajudicial imprisonment OUR problem!
They can’t be allowed to get away with this without consequences…
-24
weeeeetao1 day ago
-8
Meanwhile America has a pedo as president
-8
MojaveMojito13241 day ago
-3
Does the trial include people sent to El Salvador by ICE under shaky assumptions that they are MS-13?
-3
watdogin1 day ago
-7
The power and ferocity of these cartels has pushed these countries into fighting a war in their own backyards. Desperate times
136 Comments