ListNook

Aschebescher 12 hr ago +383

> “The old model—relying on c**** Russian energy, low-cost Chinese labor, and unconditional American security—is dead. We must think bigger, move faster, and act more independently.” She also said this and I have to agree with her.

383

freexe 9 hr ago +38

She says it, but what actions are they actually taking to change this? Because the EU is moving incredibly slowly to this.

38

zack77070 9 hr ago +2

EU is so fractured it's difficult to see them making any choices that aren't mostly superficial in the grand scheme of things like making the iPhone use USB C. You regularly have member states with direct opposite objectives and it leads to stupid things like Russia starting a war right under their nose, and the whole tech sector has fallen behind China and the US minus like 2 bright spots. It really feels like they need to figure some shit out or they will be in some big trouble now that the money is running dry and even anti debt states like Germany are trying to raise their debt ceiling.

2

anders_hansson 12 hr ago -57

In relation to that, Turkey is a key player. They are the second biggest military in NATO, after the US. If we want to break free from US dependence, Europe **needs** Turkey on its side - and they have clearly signaled willingness to take that role. It would be really, really bad for European security if Turkey broke off with us and moved even closer to Russia.

-57

__Yakovlev__ 11 hr ago +58

I see you on every thread glazing countries like turkey and Iran.

58

anders_hansson 10 hr ago -17

It's not glazing. It's an objective analysis. E.g. critizising the US administration for making a disasterous blunder by invading Iran is not the same as glazing Iran.

-17

Inevitable_Butthole 10 hr ago -6

Glazer

-6

positivcheg 9 hr ago +1

U for real? 2nd biggest military in NATO? Like what do they have except some drones that are no longer something cool and even Ukraine has numerous companies making different kinds of drones flying far far away and battle tested.

1

Karffs 9 hr ago +1

Largest in troop numbers. They’re not even top 5 when it comes to spending.

1

anders_hansson 8 hr ago +1

It's always a matter of definition. I was referring to a metric often [used by NATO](https://www.nato.int/en/news-and-events/articles/news/2024/11/25/secretary-general-in-turkiye-strong-turkish-defence-capabilities-contribute-to-a-strong-nato) when they mention Turkey, e.g: >The Secretary General ... highlighted that Türkiye has the second-largest army in NATO So yeah, "army" is probably a better word to use than "military" here.

1

boersc 11 hr ago +21

We would be so much better off without Turkey...

21

anders_hansson 8 hr ago +1

You need to think about what "without Turkey" means. Let's say we kick them from NATO and stop trying to work with them. Can you guess what would happen? I'd give it a 95% chance that they would buddy up with Russia (security cooperation etc), and pivot more towards Asia and the Middle East. I'm not sure that we would be better off in that situation.

1

AcanthaceaeUnited713 11 hr ago -16

Why turkey what have they done

-16

kitkathy1994 10 hr ago +19

The problem is less Turkey and more Erdoğan, I think.

19

AcanthaceaeUnited713 10 hr ago -29

So political interference is good when EU does it 🙂

-29

Karffs 9 hr ago +1

Don’t think u/kitkathy1994 posting a comment on Listnook counts as political interference. Stop being so pathetic.

1

AcanthaceaeUnited713 9 hr ago +1

Not what I meant, the EU is obviously trying to pressure turkey for political influence

1

Karffs 9 hr ago +1

Diplomacy isn’t political interference.

1

AcanthaceaeUnited713 9 hr ago +1

That's what china and Russia claim too.

1

AdonisK 11 hr ago +9

They are literally trying to position themselves in the same way, creating a dependency to them and then use that to push/force foreign policy…

9

AcanthaceaeUnited713 11 hr ago -11

So don't be dependent on them , sorry i don't get the whole idea

-11

AdonisK 10 hr ago +10

That’s the point she is making. We can’t be taking about doing our dependency on Russia, China and the US only to become dependent on another borderline dictator-led country

10

mSterian 10 hr ago

It's calling them a "threat" the thing that is sparking the debate. Maybe just a poor choice of words.

0

AcanthaceaeUnited713 10 hr ago -6

It is funny that you compared turkey to the us, china, or russia. Is the EU so weak that turkey pose a threat lmao

-6

DynamicFactotum 9 hr ago +1

Turkey and Russia together are highly unlikely considering they have been rivals for centuries. We do not need or want the cancer that is Turkey. Get rid of your dictator and return to secularism and we’ll consider letting you sit at the kids table again.

1

anders_hansson 8 hr ago +1

>Turkey and Russia together are highly unlikely considering they have been rivals for centuries Yet Turkey and Greece are allies in NATO, despite them having been bitter enemies for a thousand years, and have border disputes to this day. Erdogan appears to be a pragmatic man with diplomatic ambitions. E.g. he has said that [he trusts Russia as much as he trusts the West](https://apnews.com/article/turkey-erdogan-putin-russia-west-25ac6174d5cfde41ccfc56758e3477db). Even as a NATO member, Turkey has [bought weapons from Russia](https://www.twz.com/28947/turkeys-newly-delivered-s-400-air-defense-system-threatens-to-shoot-down-relations-with-u-s). If Turkey was kicked out of NATO for instance, they would have to form a new security platform and work with new allies. I don't see it as at all unlikely that they would have to work closer with Russia.

1

Nviki 10 hr ago +10

Europe must rely on Europe.

10

CupEcstatic2721 12 hr ago +138

Erdogan pursues a very complex policy; he is on good terms with Hamas, Iran, Russia, and China. Perhaps that statement was a hint to Erdogan to decide which side he is on, but the hint is so blunt that Turkey might choose a side that is not the desired one.

138

nishitd 12 hr ago +89

Just like Pakistan, Erdogan sees himself as the leader of all Muslims, so his aims don't always align with EU

89

Ashkev1983 12 hr ago +36

What is this stupid need for being "leader of the muslim world" among middle east countries? Saudis, emiratis, Iranians and turks all competing for something nobody in the world cares about. Am I missing something?

36

__Yakovlev__ 11 hr ago +45

Because it gives their right to rule legitimacy without having to actually be a good leader for the average person. That has been the religious thing for thousands of years now, putting your religion and faith in the "king" above your own interests.

45

notsocoolnow 11 hr ago +27

Yes. Until the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, Islam had a central authority, the Caliph (veeeeeery shorthand here, its like the Muslim Pope). While most of the modern dickheads are not trying to actually be the Caliph, loads of world leaders are infatuated with having the *voice* of the Caliph.

27

Ashkev1983 11 hr ago +2

As a person who is not part of the religion but have some knowledge of their beliefs, it sounds like Haram to aim for that for them. Sauds have the caliph arrangement with their Sufi imams about legitimising their role in KSA. Am I understanding that correctly?

2

blueberrywalrus 11 hr ago +13

Your missing the fact that these countries all have large religious populations that want their version of Islam to prosper and Muslim leaders lean heavily on those populations to stay in power. It's literally the same reason Trump is always talking about the plight of the American Christian constantly being persecuted to appeal to evangelicals.

13

Ashkev1983 11 hr ago +1

Aahh... Gotcha! So they want their branch of Islam to the "guiding light" for whole religion and they themselves as the "pope" of that branch. Right?

1

blueberrywalrus 10 hr ago +3

To a degree, but a lot of it is more primal than that. There are groups like ISIS out there that are more than willing to genocide opposing Muslim factions. So, you really don't want those ideologies spreading and taking root in your religious community or nearby communities.

3

thecopterdude 11 hr ago +2

Is just a stupid narrative to get those who can’t think for themselves to vote for dictators. None of these countries are actually competing against each other for a religious title.

2

AdonisK 10 hr ago +6

His aim is to literally replace Russia with Turkey. He wants the EU to become dependent to him so that he can then force his way into our decision making…

6

boersc 11 hr ago +6

'don't always align with' is an understatement. I seriously don't understand why the EU was so eager to get them on board.

6

AcanthaceaeUnited713 11 hr ago +4

Can i get 100 for cold war

4

_Kickster_ 10 hr ago -7

Dude Erdogan %100 on American side wtf :D Go to google and type Feto or Fetullah Gulen. This is terrorist organization that put Erdogan in charge. Even they part ways Erdogan still number one puppet of American President. And another punch line get ready Turkey's best economical allie is Israel. We are buying tons of shit and sending tons of shit every f****** day. I don't care about Europeans hating Turks I mean they have many reasons but European governments should side with people who follows Mustafa Kemal Atatürk. I know everyone has agenda but reading news like this just funny and waste of time.

-7

boersc 10 hr ago -9

"Eu governments should side with people who follow Ataturk" Why would we side 'with any party that are religious fanatics? If anything, EU Should side with anyone being agnostic.

-9

FecklessFool 10 hr ago +14

Uh yes. Ataturk. Very well known for his love of religion in government and hate for secular government which was made very clear when he, uh, abolished the Caliphate? Hmmmm hold on I think I'm missing a step here.

14

Sotler 9 hr ago +3

Please just use your head before spouting utter nonsense next time

3

_Kickster_ 10 hr ago -1

:D

-1

__Yakovlev__ 11 hr ago +19

Every source Ive seen that reports on this has turkey in its name. Likely state aligned, use that information as you will.

19

Electric4ce 12 hr ago +54

Turkey has always been an outlier. Didn't want Sweden to join NATO either.

54

anders_hansson 12 hr ago +39

They wanted to buy planes from the US and held Sweden hostage as a bargaining chip.

39

jsawyer_ 9 hr ago +10

You mean the f35's they already paid for? and Sweden who's been sanctioning them for years?

10

anders_hansson 8 hr ago +1

I was referring to this (January 2024): [US approves F-16 fighter jet sale to Turkey, F-35s to Greece after Turkey OKs Sweden’s entry to NATO](https://apnews.com/article/us-turkey-sweden-nato-ukraine-russia-02418dd7644bc8865fdafdff4c848dbd). Turkey had been trying to buy planes from the US since 2021, but the deal was blocked by the US Congress for years. Turkey used their veto on Sweden's NATO membership as a card to force the US to approve the deal.

1

Majjjen 9 hr ago +1

You mean export control, not sanctions right? Or are you just using maximalist language to exaggerate?

1

jsawyer_ 9 hr ago +1

No I am saying sanctions. Stop spamming buzzwords.

1

Redbad2222 12 hr ago +50

Let’s face it. Turkey until now uses threats and extortion as an important tool for politics. Turkey until now locks up opposition leaders and human rights activists. Turkey until now never has been willing to come to terms with its violent history and present regarding its minorities.

50

Misfiring 10 hr ago +5

I mean, many many countries do so. Europe is more of an exception than the norm, but to be an exception you need strength.

5

GoingAllTheJay 8 hr ago +1

Probably because it's a continent

1

AdonisK 10 hr ago -6

Don’t forget that they invaded Syria and Iraq not even a decade ago “to create buffer zones”. And still occupying a big chunk of Cyprus and have a casus belli again Greece for their expansionist agenda…

-6

FrozenToonies 11 hr ago +8

Hungry loses their autocratic leader and now everyone is on Turkeys ass to be aligned with the EU. How much longer of Erdogan? Another 2-3 years? Seems unlikely.

8

4862skrrt2684 10 hr ago +11

Guy won just after that terrible earthquake which he handled the aftermath of poorly. If he could survive that, unlike his citizens did, then I don't see him going anywhere

11

InsensitiveClod76 11 hr ago +4

Nom nom nom

4

FML_FTL 11 hr ago +18

Yes, China and especially Turkey who are signaling for working together with the eu for defence are threats but not USA who is threatening the eu every two days. /s What a dumb thing to say.

18

AdonisK 10 hr ago +7

Both can be true. China and Turkey but also US can be a threat to the EU. Why are we pretending like we need to make a choice?

7

Dismal_Order_7130 10 hr ago +8

It is probably Israeli propoganda, since they said that after Iran Turkey is the biggest threat to Israel. So the first step would be to distance turkey from Europe

8

nicubunu 10 hr ago

Of course Turkey wants to make money selling weapons, how that makes them a democratic and freedom respecting society?

0

zobq 9 hr ago +1

so is EU going to see every country with no ideal democracy as a threat? Good luck to that approach.

1

nicubunu 8 hr ago +1

No, but the bordering countries that wage war with their neighbors, yes.

1

FKTS 9 hr ago +8

Yeah force Turkey away. I'm sure it'll work out great for Europe.

8

Nyctophilia19 12 hr ago +26

Never heard of any european country complains about Turkey's influence on Europe. I didn't even know Turkey had influence on Europe. Interesting she says that after Israel makes shitload of propaganda against Turkey.

26

Even_Skin_2463 12 hr ago +53

There are lots of people with Turkish roots here in Germany and Erdogan definitely holds a firm grip over them. A lot of mosques in Germany are run by DITIB. Which is nothing but a propagandistic state-run tool to maintain power over the Turkish diaspora. This has been an issue for decades and also is very much discussed as long.

53

__Yakovlev__ 11 hr ago +20

Turkey has literally been sending it's politicians into EU countries both to get their diaspora to vote in Turkish elections, and to influence how they vote in national elections.

20

Gwyndion_ 12 hr ago +16

Ehhh, plenty of complaints of it in Belgium, especially whenever Erdogan makes an "interesting" statement.

16

apollo219 11 hr ago +12

Must have not have heard of Greece or Cyprus.

12

Dismal_Order_7130 10 hr ago +5

I mean some Israeli minister said that after Iran Turkey is their next enemy

5

Nirok 12 hr ago +6

By Israeli propaganda you mean Erdogan stating they will have no problem to invade Israel?

6

RDDT_ADMNS_R_BOTS 11 hr ago +21

[https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/telegraph-deletes-story-falsely-claiming-erdogan-threatened-invade-israel](https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/telegraph-deletes-story-falsely-claiming-erdogan-threatened-invade-israel) "On Monday morning the Telegraph deleted the article, with a senior editor [saying](https://x.com/PaulNuki/status/2043589777853677616?s=20) on X: "We've taken the story down. The quotes looks like they were old or made up all together." I f****** despise Erdogan, but come on now.

21

AcanthaceaeUnited713 11 hr ago +3

No you don't get it, Israel gets to destroy whatever country they want , are you an antisemite

3

BakerOne 7 hr ago +1

You must have been living under a rock then...

1

v_for_vegetta 10 hr ago +3

turkey should never be in eu

3

smeeagain93 11 hr ago +5

She isn't wrong. Turkey is still on a warpath with Greece. Turkey has threatened and blackmailed the EU multiple times. It's stance on Russia/Ukraine is questionable. It's much more of a dictatorship than a democracy. And many more things that make it more of an enemy than an ally. Neutral it is 100% not.

5

zobq 9 hr ago +1

Turkey has its own independent policy. Sometimes it aligns with EU goals sometimes collides. If it's enough to call it enemy, I presume EU officials thinks we're encircled by enemies. I'm afraid such a stance wont bring anything good.

1

Glittering-Age-9549 12 hr ago +1

A hint that Israel is going to declare war on Turkey next? Ursula von der Leyen is German, and Germany has a policy of never going against Israel... Germany may want Turkey out of NATO...

1

Manathar45 11 hr ago -11

Turkey threatened to invade Israel.

-11

z-a-z-a 11 hr ago +12

Do you have a source for this statement?

12

Glittering-Age-9549 10 hr ago

Obviously not. I am just describing my impression on what is happening. I just think Ursula von der Leyen antagonizing Turkey before the end of the Ukraine War, and at a time when US is threatening to withdraw from NATO (and hence, a time when Europe needs Turkey to stay friendly) can only be understood in the context of escalation between Turkey and Israel/US.

0

Glittering-Age-9549 11 hr ago +3

So what? Does that make it less likely for Israel to attack Turkey, or more likely?. The point is, Turkey is a NATO country, so, if Israel bombs a Turkish airbase or whatever, technically all NATO countries should aid Turkey, but US will take Israel's side no matter what happens... So Ursula von der Leyen probably is thinking of dumping Turkey to avoid antagonizing US and Israel. As bad as Erdoğan is, the West has turned a blind eye to everything and endeavoured to keep Turkey on their side during the Ukraine war, until now. I think this is directly connected to a potential conflict between Turkey and US/Israel.

3

Difficult_Mousse7976 9 hr ago -4

Turkey threatened to invade Israel. NATO is a defensive alliance, if Turkey invades or attacks Israel first, they’ll get absolutely no support.

-4

Glittering-Age-9549 9 hr ago +1

But what if Israel bombs some Turkish airbase, preemptively...?

1

Fearless_Pianist_846 11 hr ago +2

Turkey is a muslim country, just like the ones in the midde east.

2

meveleens 9 hr ago +1

This is the thing that people conveniently forget about Muslim countries, there isn’t a single one on the planet that is an egalitarian-democratic, innovative, classless society. It may still happen but to date, all Islamic countries are essentially the definition of invasive individual authoritarianism, double standards, corrupt justice systems and structural nepotism governance. Even the ones that are supposedly democratic (e.g. Indonesia, Malaysia) maintain, nurture and cultivate corruption in the name of Allah and class. This is the reality - the son or daughter of a judge or even any other high ranking government official and/or country ‘elite’ will never be accountable or punished in any kind of degree compared to a plumber, farmer or ‘regular Joe/ Josephine’ of that same nation. Happens everyday, all day in these nations. It’s a trait all religious country governments have but it’s especially pronounced in Islamic nations. Even in its current form Trump’s American Republican Party is in fact a lot more lenient and (surprisingly) less corrupt than almost all Islamic nations on earth. Turkey seems to be doing its consistent utter best to annihilate the legacy of Ataturk and make Turkey a ‘great Islamic nation’ which is a very old boring tune that the world has already seen plenty of times.

1

No-Independence-6890 8 hr ago +1

To be fair, sounds pretty much like some western democracies of late. Few aspire to true representation with state, country and its people in mind. Most have become something not what it says in the label. No country is except from this, maybe a few Nordic countries but… even most European counties have there elites, untouchables etc. it’s wrong but glass houses.

1

This_Robot 9 hr ago +3

Indonesia is not an Islamic country. Our corruption is the usual secular corruption. Why bother getting religion involved in moneymaking?

3

breadb_hole 9 hr ago +1

Böhmermann had such a good poem about Erdogan.

1

Satyriasis457 12 hr ago +2

She was talking politically. Militarily, turkey is still a partner when it comes to a russian threat 🤷‍♀️

2

anders_hansson 12 hr ago -1

Shall we interpret this as the EU turning down Turkey's recent invites to work together to strengthen Europe's security? If so, this sounds like an incredibly stupid move by vdL. Actually, it's stupid regardless.

-1

4862skrrt2684 10 hr ago

I know turkey has its issues, but what happened lately since it's getting so much critique now

0

Traskenn 10 hr ago

China is more a potentially economic threat if the EU is not careful. But IMO the biggest threat right now is the US sadly.

0

Admirable-Drama-432 12 hr ago -12

You can’t keep Turkey in the EU waiting room for 25 years and then act shocked when it starts knocking on other doors.

-12

Imzadi76 11 hr ago +5

It has been much, much longer. Before the EU it was the EC and that was started in th 60's.

5

MakoSmiler 11 hr ago +9

The Turkish economy is completely fucked. Has been for a long time now.

9

SOHONEYSAME 12 hr ago +15

lol. Turkey joining the EU = collapse. never.

15

xtothewhy 12 hr ago -1

>A warning by former Russian president Dmitry Medvedev has crystallised fears ... >among Gulf states that reopening the Strait of Hormuz may be the most Iran-U.S. talks can achieve, falling short of the broader de-escalation they regard as vital.

-1

Important-Emu-6691 9 hr ago +1

Europe really can’t figure out a way to be friendly to and cooperate with none judaeo Christian countries it’s wild.

1

OriginalConnect3042 12 hr ago -9

Explain yourself.

-9

EU chief groups Turkey with Russia and China as "threats to be countered," sparking diplomatic firestorm

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