dont forget the enterprise-plan, available on personal consultation directly in the relevant comitees.
1
jimicus4 days ago
+33
New EU members routinely get some sort of scaled-back membership for an initial period of time.
33
Officieros4 days ago
+8
Probation
8
Themetalin4 days ago
+2
>an initial period of time
100 years?
2
OopsWeKilledGod4 days ago
+1
You know how many new countries there will be in Europe in a century? How many old ones gone? Europe has to redraw its maps like once a decade.
1
PrrrromotionGiven14 days ago
+5
I don't really agree with that. You can look at a 500 year old map and there are some countries missing, some countries added, some with different borders, but it's clearly recognisable.
The Holy Roman Empire complicates matters, I admit.
5
Dingcock2 days ago
+1
Colonization as well
1
Officieros4 days ago
+4
Turkey enters the room
4
flonnil4 days ago
+11
*the site you are looking for is currently unavailable. try again later!*
11
uberduck4 days ago
+39
Would you mind us breturning as well?
39
roth_dog4 days ago
+10
I love the term ‘Breturn’, should get it trending.
10
ExxInferis4 days ago
+2
How about Brack-pedal?
2
totallyRebb4 days ago
+14
Please do. We miss you guys 🥹
14
lonezolf4 days ago
+3
Yes. Without any advantage you previously negotiated of course. And a pledge to join the euro of course (although this one is less binding, many countries pledged to join and do not)
3
Somhlth5 days ago
+31
Welcome Ukraine into the new NATO^^^2 (No Assholes Treaty Organization) that doesn't include the US.
31
Dazzling_River99034 days ago
+41
I am all for supporting Ukraine but EU membership requirements should be the same for all, no exceptions. I believe Ukraine can manage, it’s a very capable and ambitious people.
41
alibaba316914 days ago
+53
The idea is you reduce the requirements but you also reduce the rights. And as a country meets more and more requirements they get more and more rights. This is the idea of a 2 speed europe.
To try and reduce as much as possible the damage that imperfect democracies like Ukraine, Serbia etc could do inside the union. So we don't end up with new Orbans
53
SPQR-Tightanus4 days ago
+14
>To try and reduce as much as possible the damage that imperfect democracies like Ukraine, Serbia etc could do inside the union. So we don't end up with new Orbans
This has nothing to do with imperfect democracies and new Orbans.
What you call perfect democracies (I suppose you are talking about countries like France and Germany) are on their way to elect politicians like Orban - National Front and AfD.
Orban and people like them can be elected in any country, in any democracy, to "not end up with new Orbans" - you need to stop having elections.
>The idea is you reduce the requirements but you also reduce the rights. And as a country meets more and more requirements they get more and more rights. This is the idea of a 2 speed europe.
Awesome idea, does it apply to existing members? No.
Then how does it protect from "new Orbans"? It doesn't.
14
alibaba316914 days ago
+10
I agree with all your points. But you can't change the current EU founding treaties without all the members agreeing to. The right of veto insted of a majority vote is a big problem in the eu today. The best thing you can try to do is to minimise the damage new members could do.
But reform is deeply needed
10
SPQR-Tightanus4 days ago
-7
>I agree with all your points. But you can't change the current EU founding treaties without all the members agreeing to.
Yes, you can - it is done by building a group of countries that agrees with a new treaty and forming EU2 and threatening countries like Hungary to not include them in new treaty.
This will force Hungary either to join on new terms or be outside of the Union.
-7
alibaba316914 days ago
+9
Yeah but that the type of fantasy thinking that woul never happen in real life without a major human catastrophe before something like ww2 that finally led to the eu
9
SPQR-Tightanus4 days ago
-4
What you are saying simply means they don't really care about "new Orbans" and a chance to get "new Orban" is not the reason why they are doing what they are doing.
-4
Unbelievablemonk4 days ago
+1
What he is saying is that you don't abandon agreed upon treaties that have given so much peace, stability and economic opportunities to a whole continent just because your current political situation would benefit more from a slightly adapted version like the EU2...
The interdependence of EU countries and the stability of core principles of EU member states is what makes it powerful. Simply erasing it and starting over will forever damage the reputation and probably doom Europe to repeat the centuries of wars and aggression that came before it.
1
Dazzling_River99034 days ago
+3
AFD won’t get into power in Germany any time soon. 70% of Germans vote for democratic, more or less reasonable parties. The AFD just lost a bunch of local elections and only has like one mayor of some small town somewhere. They are a very loud minority.
3
SPQR-Tightanus4 days ago
+4
It is deeply irrelevant to whether they will come to power any time soon or not.
What I am talking is a matter of principle.
As long as you have elections - you have a risk of electing new Orban, believe it or not.
4
Dazzling_River99034 days ago
+4
I don’t disagree with you on that, but you laid it out like Germany was on the edge of Orbanisation and that‘s just not the case.
4
SPQR-Tightanus4 days ago
+2
13 years ago it was unthinkable to see AfD polling we are seeing today.
What does "on the edge" means in historic terms? Another 10 years?
I don't think it's as impossible as you think it is.
2
Dazzling_River99034 days ago
+2
I don’t even think it’s impossible. But to be fair, there was always a significant part of German society that was basically AFD-minded. They were just not voting or voting „conservative“ or fringe parties. But what is also true is that parties like the Greens have managed to have vice chancellors, governors and mayors and were part of the federal government in the last years. No one really thought that was possible not too long ago either. When the AFD was said to have made plans to deport or pressure citizens, there were literally millions of Germans from all walks of life demonstrating in the streets. We are still very far from a far right grifter take over. But we should be prepared anyways, in that you are certainly correct.
2
twitterfluechtling4 days ago
+19
From what I see, this is not to make it easier for them to join completely, just a membership light, without subsidies and voting rights. More symbolic, except for one key-cornerstone: Ukraine would be protected under the mutual defense agreement.
Sounds good to me. Sorry for Ukrainians that have suffered a lot and don't want to wait, but with Hungary, Poland, Slovakia and Bulgaria we already have a couple of temporarily difficult members, Germany is at risk of becoming a liability with the AfD, and I think we need to fix the veto-power and some other mechanisms as a priority before growing further.
19
Searlichek4 days ago
+3
Joining the E.U. means passing certain economic entry criteria; look what happened to Greece, just as an example, when they were unable to set their own interest rates, and had joined without truly meeting the standard. A staggered entry system benefits Ukraine the most.
3
chodgson6255 days ago
+2
I don’t suppose this is anything like what Cameron asked Merkel for just before the Brexit vote? (I expect Cameron’s party would have refused the offer and asked for more)
2
RabidFishCat4 days ago
+1
Oh they have the +ads tier now
1
xithus14 days ago
+1
Just get them in and we’ll deal with the trouble after.
1
blackadder16204 days ago
+1
Just the tip
1
Userwerd4 days ago
+1
What is it, like soaking?
1
JholaWalaBaba4 days ago
+2
Rather than putting only Ukraine to that Lighter membership list, they should put Hungary too in the same bucket.
This bucket should be used for the countries which lack the "faith quotient". By being in the bucket, they are given a chance to strive and prove how strong allies they may become in future.
2
Open-Armadillo99214 days ago
🤣🤣🤣
0
ms12324 days ago
-4
that is great news
now Mindich can comeback from Israel. to continue with work on energy exports to europe, work he had to leave year or two ago
Tymur Mindich, a businessman implicated in Ukraine's major energy corruption scandal, fled to Poland hours before police raids using a luxury taxi service.
-4
rookie-mistake4 days ago
+10
I don't understand why someone implicated in a corruption scandal and fleeing due process would return if they join the EU, could you elaborate?
10
CryptographerHot31094 days ago
+3
because in the EU he will be considered a lobbyist
3
SPQR-Tightanus4 days ago
+7
>Tymur Mindich, a businessman implicated in Ukraine's major energy corruption scandal, fled to Poland hours before police raids using a luxury taxi service.
Is that supposed to make Ukraine look bad?
In EU, with their "standards" entire government were and are being bought by Russia and nobody raids their houses.
7
SPQR-Tightanus4 days ago
-14
>Despite the strict financial and political limitations, the Franco-German “lighter version” of membership does include **one highly significant benefit**: the EU’s mutual defense clause. With NATO membership effectively off the table for the foreseeable future, Berlin noted that this defense guarantee “could be made de facto applicable through a mere political declaration.”
This is clearly a racist idea.
They spent an incredible amount of energy appeasing Hungary, a country that contributes nothing to the table and its corrupt government bought by Russia in full.
And yet for a country that actually proved to be useful - they are offering a humiliating second class status with the "right to seat with them at the same table but not say anything".
-14
myflesh4 days ago
+7
I still do not see racism in this though? Not saying it is good or bad; or even that it is not racist. Just would you mind explaining to me how it is racist and not many the other fucked up reasons why they might do this.
7
SPQR-Tightanus4 days ago
-12
>I still do not see racism in this though?
It is racist because they consider Ukrainians worthy of dying for them but not worthy of having a say in determining the policies.
And yet somehow "Honorary Aryan" countries like Hungary can do anything and all is forgiven.
Ukraine should reject this proposal. Sooner or later Russia will go to Baltics and good luck to "Honorary Aryan" countries and their "elite club" mobilizing their fat and lazy societies to die for Narva.
They can try stopping Russian tanks with printed editions of their beloved Corruption Perception Index, I bet it will work just fine.
-12
CryptographerHot31094 days ago
+1
Oh no, that's a great offer, worth taking. Just calling a s**** a s****, it's not membership unless you have the authority of a member, just an enhanced partnership.
1
[deleted]4 days ago
+1
[deleted]
1
SPQR-Tightanus4 days ago
+1
Realpolitik is when you have actual hard power and use it to push your interests further.
These ones have none of that, only stories about how "Russian GDP is less than that of Italy" and Fart Smellines perception Index.
It's just a matter of time this fraud collapses.
1
[deleted]4 days ago
+2
[deleted]
2
SPQR-Tightanus4 days ago
+3
>Ok, but what's the reason Ukraine wants to join this falling fraud then?
The only reason is because Ukraine doesn't want to join Russia, which is worse than a fraud and because this fraud is the only other neighbor Ukraine has.
3
Tree1Dva4 days ago
I don't buy into the honorary Aryan moniker here, but there is a lot of racism against Ukrainians (aside from the genocidal racism from Russia) - Ukrainian lives are not valued as highly as those from other European or North American countries by many people. It's part of why Ukraine hasn't been received as much support as its needed in this war, among other effects
0
SPQR-Tightanus4 days ago
-1
>Ukrainian lives are not valued as highly as those from other European or North American countries by many people. It's part of why Ukraine hasn't been received as much support as its needed in this war, among other effects
It's the reason why Ukraine has this war in the first place, by being forced to give up their deterrent against Russia.
>I don't buy into the honorary Aryan moniker here
It's very simple, "Aryan" have nuclear deterrent.
"Honorary Aryan" get NATO deterrent.
Ukraine gets nothing.
This is why Ukraine was forced to give up nuclear status and was not allowed to get any alternative deterrent.
-1
Christoffre4 days ago
+7
It’s not about “useful” and “useless”, it’s about their ability to integrate.
The EU has strict rules on economic stability and institutional development because weak and unstable countries can create problems and risks for other EU members – just as Hungary has done.
Even if Ukraine were to win the war tomorrow, it would still be too unstable and underdeveloped.
It would take several years, possibly more than a decade, for it to reach a sufficient level of development to join the EU.
This is why Germany and France are suggesting this EU-light membership, so that Ukraine can get a boost and shorten the process.
7
SPQR-Tightanus4 days ago
-6
> it’s about their ability to integrate.
No, it's not.
If that was the case then the list of requirements would be enough.
But this is not what is being discussed, nobody is talking about the actual requirements - what is being discussed is a political question.
-6
Hethsegew4 days ago
+3
Ukraine isn't even a member so shut up and has lower absolute GDP than Hungary. Also Ukraine only manages to resist Russia because it gets tremendous help, if Hungarians got the same level in '56 then Moscow would be a Hungarian city by now or something.
3
SPQR-Tightanus4 days ago
+2
> if Hungarians got the same level in '56 then Moscow would be a Hungarian city by now or something.
Hungarians received much more help during WW2 and lost their country in two weeks.
2
Hethsegew4 days ago
+1
Greatest Ukrainian hero Bandera got more and couldn't even manage to make Ukraine exist.
9 million useless Hungarians still produce more than 30 million übermensch Ukrainians so deal with it.
1
SPQR-Tightanus4 days ago
+2
>Greatest Ukrainian hero Bandera got more and couldn't even manage to make Ukraine exist.
Greatest Ukrainian hero Bandera was not afraid to go against both superpowers of his time and risk his life many times.
Greatest Hungarian heroes were guarding German concentration camps during WW2 cause the only time they were trusted to show up on front lines - it costed Germans one of their most important battles of the war.
>9 million useless Hungarians still produce more than 30 million übermensch Ukrainians so deal with it
Yeah, all they produce is strictly proportional to how much handouts Germany is willing to give them.
No wonder that as soon as the stream of handouts was over, Hungary fell behind Romania.
2
timwaaagh4 days ago
+1
im surprised they offer the defence clause. that is extremely risky. i would have expected something like free movement of goods. ukraine should honestly take it and laugh all the way to the bank while europe is effectively obligating itself to fight this war.
1
SPQR-Tightanus4 days ago
+1
They offer it after the war, so that Ukraine joins their war when Russia invades Baltics.
This why they offer it, not because they want to guarantee anything to Ukraine, they want Ukraine to do dirty job for them and them do nothing in exchange and keep telling stories about corruption perception index while taking money from Russia.
1
timwaaagh3 days ago
+1
It sounded too good to be true. But Even then. This proposal is still risky for eu members and it will most likely be vetoed by some or all of the visegrads. this is france and germany doing their best to get you guys something of substance as part of their pester russia policy. Even if its not much.
1
CryptographerHot31094 days ago
-1
EU, if we are attacked, give us your army, and in return we will give you EU membership, but without actually being a member.
-1
SPQR-Tightanus4 days ago
Yet another budapest memorandum fraud from almost same authors.
64 Comments