France is essentially swapping old tech for new with Greece, which seems like a calculated move to upgrade their own arsenal while still supporting Ukraine.
41
Fickle-Maintenance-12 days ago
+24
Except there’s a 10 year backlog on Rafales, at which point you are confronted with the reality of a 2035 delivery at earliest and the prospect of flying fourth Gen well past mid century…
24
ballthyrm2 days ago
+16
Generation are a marketing terms.
The rafale F5 is going to be able to do stuff the F35 can't (like see a plane from 200km away without radar) It already does a lot of stuff the F35 can't, like Fly for more than 60% of the time.
Don't get too bogged down into what "generation" a plane is and look at capabilities.
16
Fickle-Maintenance-12 days ago
Sure but there’s no getting around the fact it is not stealth when stealth is paramount and will remain the most important characteristic. France itself might or might not be fine with whatever comes out of FCAS, but the countries importing Rafales now will be looking at a 2 generation gap between their newest planes and the cutting edge by 2035 when most analysts predict both American and Chinese sixth Gen to be ready by the early 2030s.
0
ballthyrm2 days ago
+15
What we call "stealth" is radar stealth. It's not "electromagnetic spectrum stealth", you can still see them with optical, with infrared, by looking at atmosphere shockwave.
That's what the rafale F5 is about. With the meteor missile on top of that you can target Lock at 150km+ without radar signature.
Stealth won't save you.
15
dvanha2 days ago
+10
I wish more people would understand this. I’ve only started to grow an appreciation for the nuance myself. I think the success (or rather performance) of countries like DPRK, Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Ukraine show that technology is not a strategy, it just affords different tactics.
10
Panchorc2 days ago
+3
> With the meteor missile on top if that you can target Lock at 150km+
That missile goes bvraam!
3
Gierni1 day ago
+1
To complement some previous answer about stealth there is a technology called Over-the-horizon radar :
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Over-the-horizon\_radar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Over-the-horizon_radar)
For example we have the confirmation since 1999 that France radar NOSTRADAMUS can detect B-2 Spirits. It's not that stealth is useless but it's clearly overrated.
1
bangtansalt2 days ago
+2
Why is production so slow?
2
ballthyrm2 days ago
+12
Because for a long time they wasn't any sales, so the production slowed down so the chain doesn't close (it's very bad to close a plane production as you can lose the know-how). They were updating planes as Mirages went into retirement.
Now that a lot of sales have been made, Dassault has made a plan to ramp up production but it's going to take a while as it's a lot of small and medium entreprise that made all the little pieces that also have to grow and ramp-up.
If the sale to India go through a second line will open and production will double.
12
bangtansalt2 days ago
+2
Wait don't they have meticulous plans for every part big or small?? They can still forget the process?
2
ballthyrm2 days ago
+10
It's complicated.
Basically same reason we weren't able to build another Saturn V, lots and lots of knowledge is in people heads. Process and procedures that have been honed in over the course of production.
You could have all the plans of all the pieces of the plane and still not be able to make them or assemble them.
Dassault doesn't own every IP, every process to make the pieces the plane is made out of.
10
Gargamel8132 days ago
+5
"You could have all the plans of all the pieces of the plane and still not be able to make them or assemble them."
And that's why "stealing techs" is not as easy as we think.
5
Dingcock2 days ago
+1
Part easy to make if you have all the material and molds ready to go
Even with designs its hard to go from nothing to production quantities of precision airspace parts, you need to design factories and design machines to make your parts.
Then as you scale up you have to rip out your old factory design for a new one...put in bigger machines or robots and shit
1
United-Adagio15431 day ago
+2
This is a good way to help countries that do not have funds to purchase new.
Most of the best new technologies have a significant backlog.
2
BeeUnfair40861 day ago
-5
Nobody wants rafal, it's old tech and expensive.
-5
ComfortQuiet70811 day ago
-1
Buying 4th gen jets in 2026 is a bit strange for real
-1
Apprehensive-Aide2651 day ago
+1
Not everyone wants to rely on Uncle Sam.
1
Apprehensive-Aide2651 day ago
+1
It's on of the best seller of the second best military hardware export nation in the world, with years of queue to get a batch but sure nobody wants one.
1
BeeUnfair408622 hr ago
Coping. Same thing German VW/BMW workers where yapping about their cars before transforming them to Rheinmetall factories.
20 Comments