Alternative headline: "Greece decreased its debt faster than Italy has decreased it."
1586
SvartSol1 day ago
+143
Is this the true reason? Or is it debt increase.
143
wndtrbn1 day ago
+372
Well, it's in the article. I can quote it for you: "Greek debt is estimated to be reduced to about 137% of gross domestic product this year from 145% in 2025" and "Italy's debt will remain virtually stable at 138.5% in 2027, before declining to 137.9% in 2028 and to 136.3% the following year, its budget plan showed." You can also find historical debt percentages, Greece was at 249% in 2020 and now at 137%, while Italy was at 176% and is now at 138%. It's an impressive decrease from both countries, although some will say it was easier for Greece since larger numbers change in larger steps.
[https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/ita/italy/national-debt](https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/ita/italy/national-debt)
[https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/grc/greece/national-debt](https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/grc/greece/national-debt)
372
SomeGalNamedAshley1 day ago
+123
Well now I don't feel as inclined to click on that sensational headline.
123
Fenris_uy1 day ago
+21
Since 2020 is such a bad year to use to compare with. GDP was lower all over Europe in 2020 so debt/GDP increased a lot in all countries.
21
St3fano_1 day ago
+30
Greece is a terrible comparison for virtually any other relatively healthy country to begin with. Its GDP (constant 2015 USD) went from 210b in 2002 to 265b in 2008. Then it crashed to 195b by 2015 and as of 2025 it's 220b. That crash greatly exacerbated the debt/GDP ratio, and it's the kind of event where things can only get better or end up being a failed state.
30
b00l_Badass1 day ago
+14
Because Italy didn’t decrease debt at all
14
Tupcek1 day ago
+15
well, that’s just not true. Italy increased their debt in past 3 years, now maybe they will stay at the same level. They weren’t decreasing their debt since covid
15
wndtrbn1 day ago
+13
Not as a percentage of their GDP, and that's all that is relevant.
13
Tupcek1 day ago
+1
yes, they didn’t decrease their debt as percentage of their GDP as your original comment was saying, so that makes it false
1
wndtrbn1 day ago
+2
Italy's debt/GDP was 176% in 2020, and now it's 138%, so yes, they did. [https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/ita/italy/debt-to-gdp-ratio](https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/ita/italy/debt-to-gdp-ratio)
2
Tupcek1 day ago
+13
was 2020 in past 3 years? I specifically said they are only increasing their debt since the end of pandemic. 2020-2022 is irrelevant, as most of the economy was closed
13
Tankette551 day ago
+106
Its hardly news. Both countries have been reducing it, greece just at a faster rate. Italy's has stabilized. Fyi, France ans Belgium are not much further down the line.
106
childofMotherOfPearl12 hr ago
Will not stand for the Italy ass kissing. Long live Ellas.
0
TheOsirisOfThisShit_1 day ago
+193
Greece's GDP is $267B/yr 22nd in the EU. Italy's GDP is $2423B 4th in the EU and 10 times larger. The IMF isn't big enough to keep Italy from collapsing if it stops being able to borrow money.
193
cipheron1 day ago
+128
It's not really a news story though. This is further down in the article:
> Since 2020, Greece's public debt - the highest in the euro zone over the last two decades - has shrunk by more than 45 percentage points to 145% of gross domestic product last year. Italy cut its debt by some 17 percentage points over the same period.
So both Italy and Greece had higher and both have fallen. Greece just fell faster. That's the only news here.
They do mention a slight rise in Italy's debt but it's like 1-2% of GDP and expected to level off then fall, which is much smaller in scale than the 17% drop the article mentions. From that, i would conclude that literally nothing out of the ordinary is happening in Italy.
128
meglio_essere_morti1 day ago
+22
> They do mention a slight rise in Italy's debt but it's like 1-2% of GDP and expected to level off then fall
It is at least 20 years I've been hearing that
22
TropoMJ1 day ago
+13
Italy's debt has been hovering around 135% of GDP since the mid-2010s so it sounds like what you've been hearing is pretty accurate.
13
meglio_essere_morti1 day ago
+4
True. However the statement "is about to fall" didn't apply too well so far, as it kept (slowly) increasing
4
OhWellImRightAgain1 day ago
+2
The news story is exactly what the title says. That for the first time in over a decade, Greece won't have the highest GDP / debt ratio in the Eurozone, as it went from 250% down to 145%.
2
Realistic-Age-55021 day ago
+1
Italy's GDP is 3th in the EU
1
Roboardo1 day ago
+10
Thirth?
10
Realistic-Age-55021 day ago
+3
I took the following data from the IMF dataset.
The top 5 countries by GDP in the EU are:
1) Germany $5048 billion
2) France $3369 billion
3) Italy $2550 billion
4) Spain $1990 billion
5) Netherlands $1332 billion
2025 data, GDP expressed in US dollars
3
Koala_eiO1 day ago
-4
Why would you give the GDP of a country from the European Union in USAmerican dollars?
-4
TheOsirisOfThisShit_1 day ago
+1
At least in the US, GDP is pretty much always in USD so they can be compared.
[https://wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_sovereign\_states\_in\_Europe\_by\_GDP\_(nominal)](https://wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_GDP_(nominal))
1
Photo-701 day ago
+78
Italy currently has to borrow money at 3,77-3,8 % interest rates.
France however also has to borrow at 3,65%
Belgium at 3,55%
There is no big difference.
US borrows at 4%, but yes, they print dollars at will, the Eurozone doesn't.
78
Agreeable_Addition481 day ago
+18
France scares me, they can't even get a budget passed
18
manfr571 day ago
-3
Je ne comprends pas pourquoi elle te fait peur. Ça a toujours été ainsi en France et la dette n'est pas en grande partie la raison du blocage du budget.
Faut arrêter d'écouter tout et n'importe quoi
-3
Photo-701 day ago
+1
the mentality in France is 'et alors'.. But if the credit rating drops they will be in trouble.
1
nemisis71420 hr ago
Bud, have you looked at the US?
0
Agreeable_Addition4815 hr ago
The US controls its own currency, they can just print away some of the debt. France is in the eurozone so its a much stickier situation for them
0
[deleted]1 day ago
-44
[deleted]
-44
FalseRegister1 day ago
+7
please use common sense when commenting
7
PsychedCheese1 day ago
+11
in most European countries using a comma is the convention
11
sailorjameson1 day ago
+6
Most European countries use commas for decimals.
6
haxic1 day ago
+3
Comma is used for decimals in some nations. Using period is not universal.
3
setorict1 day ago
+11
Ancient worlds battle it out for 2nd to last place in debt
11
Gibus0431 day ago
+53
Imagine one of the most indebted countries in the world
Imagine a populist government during COVID deciding to buy some votes
What do these geniuses do? They invent the 'Superbonus 110%'.
Basically, they told citizens: 'Go ahead, renovate your house, make it pretty, and don't worry about the bill - I'll pay you 110% of the cost.'
The f***
But you had to pay at least the initial cost, and have a salary high enough to cover the tax credits
So what did people do? They started selling their tax credits to banks. The banks would pay for your renovation in exchange for your future tax breaks, so you didn't have to spend anything
€123B of public money gone just to fix up private houses. It’s the same story with every italian government, they are unable to think longterm
53
Brandhor1 day ago
+8
to be honest it wasn't the worst idea especially with the current energy crisis, problem is that as usual italians are very good at scamming other people or the government so a lot of people got the money and never did any renovations
8
JustSomebody561 day ago
+3
It’s not ONLY the superbonus’ fault.
3
Realistic-Age-55021 day ago
+11
Italy's problem is that it wastes tax money solely for electoral purposes. Between the superbonus 110%, the Listnooko di Cittadinanza (now called ADI), and the entire ecosystem of bonuses and state aid they've put in place, it's economic suicide. Then we have the enormous pension problem, but that's common to most European countries.
11
UnendingEpistime1 day ago
+1
Eppure non si riesce a comprare casa con lo stipendio medio nei centri più abitati.
1
Realistic-Age-55021 day ago
+3
Si ma l'argomento del post è il debito pubblico, quindi non c'entra niente questa cosa.
3
UnendingEpistime1 day ago
+4
C'entra in quanto lo stato si è indebitato per aumentare il patrimonio di chi è già in possesso di una casa, mentre c'e poco aiuto per chi tenta di comprarne la prima. Le agevolazioni under 36 per lo più esistono per dare una mano alla famiglia benestante che vorrebbe intestare una casa ai figli. In realtà, l'eta media del primo acquisto sarebbe già sui 45 anni.
https://www.ilsole24ore.com/art/sempre-piu-over-64-comprano-casa-italia-AGiWX9MC?refresh_ce=1
https://tg24.sky.it/economia/2025/09/01/casa-vendita-immobiliare-prezzi
Dunque, per dire, ci indebitiamo ma questi debiti non servono neanche ad aumentare la qualità di vita di chi ha veramente bisogno di un aiuto.
Edit: Poi aggiungo questa simpatica citazione di Sky
> Sono più di un milione i giovani con età compresa tra i 29 e i 39 anni che vorrebbero comprare casa
In italia siamo tutti giovani fino alla pensione. Sottilmente serve ad abbassare l'idea che noi avremo diritto ad un lavoro stabile con uno stipendio decente che ci permette a comprare un immobile. Intanto sei un "giovane"
4
Iron-Warlock1 day ago
+7
Making it 110% was idiotic though. 100% would have had no effect on citizens' ability to do those renovations, and it might have marginally offset the drastic price increase in building material and work costs that has happened.
The lack of criteria for eligibility (not to say there weren't any, those that were in place were just insufficient) was another nail in the coffin. A lot of those funds went to second/third houses; while it is true that those need maintenance too, the Superbonus was literally the government giving money away to single-building-house owners. A lot of apartment blocks didn't get in due to the plain unwillingness of apartment owners of getting their places in order and actually green-light those works.
7
JustSomebody561 day ago
+3
I agree 100%, I always criticized it as regressive (because mostly villa owners used it, since they gave their own architects), and thought that a 70% bonus would have been the perfect value.
My criticism is that the superbonus is being excessively used as an excuse by the current government
3
Realistic-Age-55021 day ago
Any government bonus increases the cost of the specific service/product that benefits from it; all these bonuses for renovations, photovoltaic systems, etc., should be abolished. Supply and demand will then determine the price.
0
JustSomebody561 day ago
+1
Supply and demand arrive the absolute perfection, and don’t plan long-term
1
eternalityLP1 day ago
+3
Greece is one of those less talked about EU success stories. They were on the verge of bankruptcy, but now they're recovering quite well thanks largely to EU assistance.
3
IntentionFalse88221 day ago
+28
All the EU peripheral nations got screwed in the 2009 economic collapse. That debt was largely incurred to bail out the "bond holders" of private banks and development companies. These bond holders were predominantly German Pension funds who made foolish investments. This massive transfer of wealth from the periphery of the EU to its core created a debt death spiral that has been impossible for most of these smaller nations to pull out of and ultimately will have to be addressed or will cause the disintegration of the EU at the next financial crisis.
28
starlordbg1 day ago
+11
My country of Bulgaria is probably in a better shape nowadays but thats because we started with almost nothing in 2009 and most of the stuff got built up since then. And thats even with all the corruption and such.
11
Big_Department42091 day ago
+15
No worries, now that Bulgaria elected Radev as the new Russian stooge in the EU you will be going back to how it was pre-2009.
15
starlordbg1 day ago
+5
Yeah, I mean I get that people were tired of 15 years of Borissov but that was just stupid. But then again the newer pro-democracy, EU-parties are totally weak even though I supported them. And Also, the important thing is Borissov also claimed and portrayed himself as a pro-EU leader for the EU funds and also Ursula hugging and kissing with him in GERB events didnt help either. Especially the years of corruption reports which disappeared for some reason.
5
Seaman_First_Class1 day ago
+4
>This massive transfer of wealth from the periphery of the EU
Bondholders getting paid back is not a “transfer of wealth” no matter how you slice it. It is a bailout, sure, but the balance sheet impact is 0.
And you might think “well they chose to risk their money”, and that’s true, but it was a bilateral risk. Creditors risk their money, and debtors risk their credit rating. And it was decided that the money right now is less valuable than the ability to borrow at reasonable rates for the next 20 years.
4
IntentionFalse88221 day ago
-1
That would be true if the debt was public government debt. But most of it started off as debts of private banks, held by private pension and investment funds, that the EU forced the smaller states to nationalise. Had those private companies been left to go into liquidation then the peripheral nations would be in a much stronger financial position now as we head into what has the potential to be a major financial crisis. And interestingly since then the EU has changed it's rules to specifically allow bond holders to be burned and not require governments to bail them out in this crisis. But the legacy debt from the 2009 massive bailout of the German and French pension fund gamblling debts could now see the EU disintegrate as the smaller nations will have no option but to default.
-1
AngularMan1 day ago
+2
Germany's pension system wasn't based on wealth funds in 2009, so I highly doubt your claim that German pension funds were "predominant". I dare you to find a source for that.
edit: Now I am being downvoted for pointing out a false claim lol.
2
fotank1 day ago
+3
Rare W for Greece financially. Well done!
3
macross19841 day ago
+2
That is record no country wanted to be in.
2
Informal-Composer2261 day ago
+2
Surprised it wasn’t already this way honestly. I guess they’ve regained credit worthiness only to..
2
Tobias---Funke1 day ago
+2
I still can’t believe Greece paid all its emergency loans back.
2
glomar-recovery-co1 day ago
+2
Not quite.... They are on track to pay the whole thing off early though. I didn't know it was 280B
2
MooSaadCow1 day ago
+2
The turn around Greece has made has been amazing on paper, anyone who lives there care to comment on how day to day has changed?
2
Patient_Gamemer1 day ago
+2
Me, an Spaniard: "what?! We're no numbers 1 here?! Gotta do it better!"
2
TGEnjoyer1 day ago
-1
Almost every nation is going to run into a debt wall soon.
-1
Vilhempie1 day ago
+18
Okay dude on the Internet who had clearly studied international macroeconomics.
18
Defiant_Pangolin_6401 day ago
+5
Yo could you send me some info to understand why accumulating debt infinitely won't create some kind of crash because it creates too much volatility ? I'm no economist but it only makes sense, no ?
5
Vilhempie1 day ago
+8
What matters is not the nominal value of the debt (the debt in dollars, or euro's, or yen, etc.), but the ratio of the debt to the GDP of the country. Many countries, like the US, have a ratio that is higher than 1, meaning that their debt is higher than whatever is produced in the country in one year. In Japan, it has been more than 2 for a long time. But as long as GDP increases at least as fast in the long-run as the debt does, the ratio does not increase exponentially, even if the the debt in nominal value does.
That being said, in some countries, a high ratio is not good. Especially when the interest rates are high, countries will pay a lot of money to lenders, and this limits their spending on other things. I think the overall understanding of economists is that the debt in the US is too high, and should be curtailed, not because it would lead to immediate collapse afterwards, but because the costs (interests payments) will outweigh the benefits (the value of increased public spending/investment).
8
Defiant_Pangolin_6401 day ago
+6
Thanks for the detailed explanation. This I understand but debt is going up and the GDP isn't no ? Like ATM, the debt is indeed getting bad for the US
6
Vilhempie1 day ago
+7
yes, but "bad" here does not mean "total collapse", or massive crisis. It will mean that either taxes will have to go up in the future, or spending will have to go down (or both). It does mean that the US will become like Greece. To put things in perspective, even if the debt is not curtailed, it will still have a much better ratio than Japan has had in decades. The US is still the strongest economy in the world, and investors will still prefer to lend money to the US government than to almost any other country for that reason. I say all of this as a European person btw.
7
Defiant_Pangolin_6401 day ago
-3
Yes total collapse won't happen by itself and overnight. But civil war would, or Trump doing stupid sht as well. But thanks for explaining super interesting !! U know ur shit.
Idk but I live in North America and quality of life has noticeably decreased everywhere on the continent for the last 20 years. I feel like our governments aren't being honest with us but maybe everything is going to shit everywhere right now.
I hoped that emerging economies we used to steal from were taking back control over their own resources and production but maybe I'm wrong.
-3
slamdanceswithwolves1 day ago
+3
>Idk but I live in North America and quality of life has noticeably decreased everywhere on the continent for the last 20 years.
Not for the ultra rich
>I feel like our governments aren't being honest with us
Yes
>but maybe everything is going to shit everywhere right now.
Maybe
3
TGEnjoyer1 day ago
+2
Debt to GDP is a bad metric in a rising rate environment. Governments around the world have idiotically issued short-term bonds at low rates and now have to reissue them at higher rates. Then, to reduce their debt burdens in the short term, many countries are proposing 100 year bonds at these elevated rates. This is horrible financial planning by governments globally to win short term elections with no thought for the future.
The prior interest coverage ratio was already concerning at low rates, and now the interest burden of governments will potentially double if rates don't fall to back to the zero line within the next 2-3 years.
When 30% of your country's tax revenue goes to paying interest I am betting many countries will have civil unrest.
2
itsjonny991 day ago
+1
Can also add the negative effects the demographic transition will cause as well.
1
Due-Business-81051 day ago
+1
no need to study that stuff to be able to understand current trends
1
TGEnjoyer1 day ago
+1
If they did any budgeting ever, they'd understand having vastly more debt than your income is generally a bad thing.
And the funny bit is I am a CFA charterholder, but they can just confidently discredit anyone who they disagree with and then spread bad info instead. Using the internet is a very odd experience now a days.
1
Hot_Kangaroo60471 day ago
+1
Let's goooooo
1
sharplight1411 day ago
+1
Wish my country would start decreasing it's debt
1
allcowsarebeautyful1 day ago
+1
The wording of that headline made me do a double take low key
1
shelbyrobinson1 day ago
+1
The little I know of this is it's a national pastime to never pay taxes in Italy. And that's come home to roost.
1
dioenatosenzadenti20 hr ago
+1
Vai di superbonus! Se ne facciamo un altro dobbiamo l'ultimo in classifica
1
God_Bless_A_Merkin20 hr ago
+1
No surprise: that’s what happens when you elect (heirs of) fascists. Republicans increase deficits and debt; the heir of Mussolini increases deficits and debt. Democratic Socialism balances budgets.
1
sudolinguist10 hr ago
+1
Que les italiens ne s'inquiètent pas. Madame Déficit arrive bientôt à leur coté.
1
KeyDependent61727 hr ago
+1
Eye watering debt
1
yukoncowbear471 day ago
+1
Those dang Italian socialists.....oh, wait...
1
PopularDemand2131 day ago
+1
I initially read the headline as "most inbred country" and was really confused.
1
Informal_Kale_2061 day ago
+1
Guys, should we really be competing over this?
1
dont_shoot_jr1 day ago
Forza Italia!!!
0
monkeyinsurgency1 day ago
-6
It's almost like right-wing economic policies don't work in reality. If only we'd had decades of data to warn everyone.
-6
Agreeable_Addition481 day ago
+13
Didn't read the article award
13
glomar-recovery-co1 day ago
+1
Is $280B euro a right wing policy?
1
Jazzlike-Equipment451 day ago
-9
First China asking the IMF for help and now it seems Italy will need help. Really the world is ran by people who can't manage their finances.
-9
ibexelf1 day ago
+1
It seems you can't read an article
1
DaySecure76421 day ago
-1
The EU countries are trying to outdo each other on having the most debts and least working hours.
-1
lamentforanation1 day ago
-2
Mamma mia!
-2
ErgoMachina1 day ago
-3
I"m still salty about what they did with Argentinians trying to get their Italian citizenship (We are basically their grandsons).
So this is good news to me. F*** that ungrateful country.
-3
Tiziano70181 day ago
+4
feel free to migrate to USA.
4
ErgoMachina23 hr ago
+2
Why would I move to a facist country?
2
Tiziano701822 hr ago
+2
Many things in common. You called Italy ungrateful, just like Trump. Please explain what does Italy own you.
2
ErgoMachina22 hr ago
To my country? We received with open arms more than a million inmigrants during WW2. Isn't that enough?
And wtf does the dementia ridden cheeto has to do with this?
0
Tiziano701822 hr ago
+2
Your grandfather was received, he was supposed to be grateful to Argentina. Nobody owns anything to you.
2
ErgoMachina15 hr ago
When WW3 comes, which will come, don't cry when we close the door
0
Gullugulu1 day ago
-8
Greek citizen sitting on his veranda, drinking some fine wine after a siesta: ‘Oh no! Anyway…
102 Comments