Hospital at centre of child HIV outbreak caught reusing syringes in undercover filming

How much does it cost to roll up a sleeve?

How much do you save by not rolling up the sleeves?

You mean reusing syringes? Syringes are c****.

Sounds like poor training and worse management.

no. you’re absolving them of responsibility by saying it’s a cost saving thing instead of what it *actually* is, which is uneducated third world bullshit. even if money is part of it and they were given some absurd directive from a superior, they should have a bare minimum amount of common sense to *defy* such an absurdly stupid order.

It’s really nice that they did this. There are FDA rules about packaging that state things can only have a 2-3 year shelf life based on packaging even though the item inside is perfectly fine. In a 3rd world country, you may not have clean gauze or silk sutures or things like that, and having something with a slightly out of date packaging by American standards doesn’t mean it’s not safe nor does it mean it’s illegal in the country reacting the supplies. It’s better to give it to them than just discard it while they have nothing. If we had given them more needles that were expired, they wouldn’t be reusing the ones they have, for example.

I feel everything you just said, but part of me feels like, if they can't afford this stuff, then some has to be better than none right?

I dont understand. Who is viewing them as not humans or less than humans? Pakistani doctors see Pakistani children as not human? I think it has more to do with supply access, or training.

No, you don't understand, the options weren't "good medical supplies by American standards" or "low quality medical supplies" the options were "slightly defective medical supplies by the letter of American law" or "no supplies at all".

"You see- those supplies could not be used on "real people". But they were perfectly fine to he used by those who are considered less valuable." Or, the US regulations don't permit using damaged, broken or expired items, but the reality is that they're still usable. Why not send them to a poorer country with less stringent regulations, so the items can possibly benefit others?

What you describe sounds shitty but I have no clue how that relates to the comment you’re replying to. Why would being sent old equipment mean that nurses in a Pakistani hospital would not roll up a child’s sleeve to give them an injection?

This is Pakistani doctors doing it to pakistsni patients. Why do you spin it into “they are less human than us.”

That has absolutely nothing to do with the above comment where a hospital in pakistan was injecting people through their clothing. Complete non sequitur

Sound like you’re a racist.

What, precisely, is wrong with your reading comprehension?

There is a difference between expired items and using the same needle on 300 people. JFC

So, you clearly don't understand how tax write-offs work. Please explain how it would be beneficial to reclassify expired items as donations, rather than as a loss. And, let's not ignore the possibility that you were working for a 501c hospital, which are already tax-exempt (because the majority of hospitals in the US are 501c).

>We were told not to throw away damaged, broken or expired items. Likely misrepresenting here. They didn't tell you to donate used needles did they? Why not if they're just pure evil looking for a tax break? When you say things like "broken" you might be talking about an IV pole with a malfunctioning wheel which is inconvenient, but perfectly safe to use. When you say "expired" you might be talking about gauze which, let's be honest, doesn't expire on the time scales hospitals throw it out. I can't promise that you weren't in some horrible place, but that is generally how these programs work. For the people who receive these supplies, it's the equivalent of using a t shirt for a tourniquet, it's not ideal, but if it's your best option it's far superior to nothing. >You see- those supplies could not be used on "real people". But they were perfectly fine to he used by those who are considered less valuable. Those who's safety and health mattered less. This is absurd framing. A huge hole in your argument is that ***non-profit hospitals also donate unused medical supplies.*** Why? Because they have two options with unused medical supplies. 1) Donate them to developing countries (third world is considered outdated by the way)  2) **Throw them in the trash** No hospital has a magical option 3 to fund new medical supplies for a billion+ people. >Because I guess their bodies react differently to unsanitary, expired and damaged medical suppl8es being used? These kids didn't get HIV because of donated supplies, they got it because a for profit hospital in Pakistan wanted to save money. But more importantly ***why did you participate in giving people dangerous supplies if you knew they were dangerous?!*** You have this whole comment acting like these hospitals are monsters for not buying medical supplies for the planet, which they are not in a position to do, ***and you knowingly helped endanger people?!*** Who are you to judge?

A government hospital in Pakistan ignored basic sanitation standards because they were using donated, or even substandard supplies? Wouldn’t having more out of date but still usable supplies have been a help? Like alcohol wipes and unused needles? I think the people dehumanizing the kids worked at that hospital.

Don't you think that's more to do with the fda having strict regulations on what can be used on a patient here? If anything it's a good sign that they are strict like that. Its an even better sign that they would rather "donate" it to a country that has less strict regulations , that would be grateful and put the supplies to use, instead of them being destroyed in America for being imperfect?

the reality is most medications work perfectly out of date, even for decades. It's just for legal reasons they put a use by date and then they become liable if something happened to be wrong with it. Like what if someone injects someone and they get sepsis, just because bad luck, in date medication, no liability, they find out they used an out of date medication, liability. Those supplies are still effective and prevent millions more people in 3rd world countries reusing syringes, or not getting vaccines at all, or not getting medication they need.

I can’t get past you calling them “less human than us”. Reeks of first world privilege. Just because they don’t have the same guidelines as us or that they aren’t as wealthy doesn’t make them “less”. What happened is appalling. But to call them “less human” is just disgusting.

This... All of this... It's so heartbreaking. How do we demand change?

If you’re uneducated, you probably shouldn’t be a doctor or nurse. I don’t know. Just spitballing here

I really dont care if you handle food or not, wash your hands :p

that's not a good example of something that's understandable if you're uneducated everyone knows to wash your f****** hands. handling food without doing so should be a crime

Literally a couple bucks too. Needles are c**** as shit.

This was a government hospital...

You do realize this is a hospital in Pakistan, right?

Watch the documentary. It's even worse these aren't even doctors they are unqualified "volunteers" that just kinda came in and took over and are just injecting everyone with Tylenol for some f****** reason. 

That polypropylene Luer fitting isn't designed to last, either. It's quite different from an early 20th century hypodermic needle with its robust steel base. I am brought to mind the image of the glass syringe body inserted in a steel sleeve with greased plunger and those metal rings for the fingers to hold onto. Often seen in Frankenstein movies.

Ya got me there

yeah, sadly

>that they were injecting through clothing, Wat? As someone who went to medical school and was a paramedic before that... no. Just no, so much no. For what possible reason? Let's jam clothing fibers into the injection site, what could go wrong? You can't even fully examine a patient with their clothes on. wtf. And just... why? For what possible reason? And like, are you alcohol-swabbing the skin you've eyeballed to be under the clothing you're jamming through? I have so many questions.

Ok, they just hate kids then? The whole children’s ward of the hospital hates children? why do they chose this field of work and join pediatric medicine if they hate pediatric patients? Idk. I have a hard time believing that. Id like to see more investigation into it, though, for sure.

It depends on what medication we are talking about. Some vials start as a powder and need to be reconstituted, so you may have the opposite problem trying to push fluid *into* a vial with positive pressure, so you must pull air OUT of the vial to create a vacuum first. (Im an ER tech at a vet hospital) some vials come with negative or positive pressure already from the manufacturer. Size of the vial and volume matters too. If you have a 1mL vial and the doses are 0.1mL, the pressure isnt going to have much effect. Pulling 1mL out of a 10mL vial will be more likely to create noticeable pressure. You can hold the plunger and fight the pressure, too. But again, as I said, its a risk of back contamination and that is why we should use a new syringe AND new needle every time. Either way, that doesn’t change my point, it seems to be a lack of education or supply, not malicious intent, laziness, or doctors viewing children as less than human. The fact that they risk their own safety by fishing them out of the sharps container leads me to believe even more that it’s about a lack of supply. Getting a new syringe is less effort than fishing old ones out of sharps, so it doesn’t sound like “laziness” is part of the equation. Side note: You can re-sterilize a syringe, too. You just have to use an Anprolene gas autoclave instead of hot steam autoclave which would melt plastic, or you have to use a glass syringe if you do use steam. But I doubt they do this. Needles typically are never reused though, because even if you can re-sterilize it, they get dull and bent, and can risk breaking iff inside the patient, or being unable to penetrate a vein. Most single-use needles also have a plastic hub that cannot be steam autoclaved.

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Poverty explains a lot. It doesn’t explain this.