ListNook

[deleted] Mar 23, 2018 +365

[removed]

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DannyDawg Mar 21, 2018 +2127

Does this also include novelty accounts that are solely up for the purposes of selling some kind of merchandise or service?

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lifelongfreshman Mar 21, 2018 +3969

Hah! Technically, the Secret Santa violates this new policy. Personal information must be exchanged for people to get their gifts, and there's no way to know if alcohol or tobacco products are sent. Taking bets on whether or not the Secret Santa exchange gets shut down this year. Probably not, because it's listnook^^TM official^^TM and therefore not subject to the rules they are making, but hey. I thought it was funny to bring up.

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Dragon_sissiy Mar 21, 2018 +87

This is a very good point. I hope when that time comes around everyone points it out for the hypocrisy. Sure it's a good thing, but if they want to be all mighty rule enforcers then they need to ban that too.

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catjuggler Mar 21, 2018 +27

That’s what I’m confused about- Listnook promotes Listnook Gifts but also wants us not to trade gifts? Which one is it? Also the swapping subs do a better job of arranging gift trading than Listnook does since they actually ensure the swap occurs.

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hobbseltoff Mar 21, 2018 +1147

I have received firearm related gifts on multiple occasions. /u/Listnook-Policy please ban it in accordance with your policy.

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Bossman1086 Mar 21, 2018 +738

So I mod /r/hookah and I have a few questions about this. We don't center our sub around trades or sales. In fact, we've discouraged it. However, we have hookah vendors and manufacturers sometimes come to our sublistnook to advertise their tobacco and sales and such. Is this now a violation of these terms of service? Do we as mods need to make new rules for our sub to now allow vendors to post on our sub anymore?

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Qualex Mar 22, 2018 +31

Obviously Listnook can't have companies advertising without paying for it. The companies can no longer post on your sub. Instead they'll have to pay Listnook so they can advertise "properly."

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Bossman1086 Mar 22, 2018 +13

Yeah. It's fucked. The vendors didn't just advertise. They actually participated in the community as hookah lovers, too. They answered questions, helped people make their smoke better, etc but also posted sale links every few weeks. It was a win-win for the vendors *and* the community. If we have to cut that out, it may basically kill the sub even if they don't ban us.

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seanmharcailin Mar 21, 2018 +2653

So do things like beer swaps fall under this? It’s nice to be able to trade local brews with people who have other local brews.

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PM_ME_FAT_FURRYGIRLS Mar 21, 2018 +1256

/r/beertrade was just slapped with a ban for "violation of Listnook’s policy against transactions involving prohibited goods or services." So there's your answer, I guess.

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thewaybaseballgo Mar 21, 2018 +1461

It was my favorite place to complete trades. So, for those of you keeping score at home: Trading craft beer is somehow worse than white nationalism on Listnook.

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iRysk Mar 22, 2018 +23

Thank you /u/spez for suddenly banning the best beer trading forum on the internet without any notice whatsoever. Even the slightest heads up would be great. Listnook used to be the bastion of an open and free internet. Now you’re becoming just like everyone else. Might as well support net neutrality while you’re at it.

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erichie Mar 21, 2018 +1546

This is really, really stupid. I don't participate in any of those subs, but this is a huge issue for me. I remember when I found Listnook in 2010 and the most likable thing about it was the "hands-off" policy. Listnook was able to be multiple different things with multiple different groups with multiple different political ideology. It wasn't the cesspool that 4chan was and it wasn't the higher-ups pushing what they wanted like Digg and it wasn't a social network like Facebook. It was Listnook where you can peer into cultures that you had no idea that existed. This is so stupid. Really. For the first time in the 8 years when I have been visiting Listnook on an almost daily basis I want something better to come along. There used to be no other site like it. It was a site for adults, but it never crossed that threshold (as a whole) like 4chan. I can't find the quote but in early Listnook days one of the founders said something similar to 'As long as a sub isn't breaking a federal law we will let it be. The moment we ban subs for any reason besides illegal activity would be the beginning of the end for Listnook.' Congratulations. You just let a bunch of people who only care about limiting others fun dictate what this site does. **e.** - [Here is a similar quote, second to last, with a bunch of other good quotes. I am trying to track down the source for the quote.](https://www.listnook.com/r/announcements/comments/863xcj/new_addition_to_sitewide_rules_regarding_the_use/dw2ofuz/) **e. 2 -** Another reason I am disappointed in this is because those people will now move away from Listnook. I don't have any friends who value guns (not talking politically here, but like some people value baseball cards) so I don't get to here viewpoints from people who value guns and will most likely value other things that I don't. They will move away from Listnook and their opinions will too. So a simple thread in r/news will be missing a viewpoint that I wouldn't normally here. Different opinions and different viewpoints is what makes Listnook great to me. Forcing out viewpoints will make it less of a discussions/debate and more about cheerleading to each other. Yes, I know that those topics haven't been banned, but part of those topics have been banned. As an example, if I want to talk about American Football and the Philadelphia Eagles, but talk about the Eagles is banned but football isn't than I will locate somewhere where I can talk about football and the Eagles.

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ed_merckx Mar 22, 2018 +60

> but talk about the Eagles is banned but football isn't than I will locate somewhere where I can talk about football and the Eagles. Say hypothetically your end goal was to ban all talk about football, how would you start? You surely wouldn't just say "f*** it" and ban it all overnight with no explanation, you'd slowly start chipping away at it under the guise of "possibly illegal" or "guys it just takes too many resources to go through everything" (this was one of the arguments for the jailbait sub, which I'm sure is true and few would argue against it being gone, but they didn't have a problem using those resources for the years it was up and running apparently), to ban small parts of a subs and then trickle it down from there. I'm sure I'll get called some 2nd ammendment conspiracy nut, but this drip drip drip excuse was used by the f****** mods in regards to the NN argument. "it just starts at this, and I know the companies say they won't act in bad faith after it, but how can we know for sure". The idea that even if overall things remain business as usual for now, eventually it will get worse.

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erichie Mar 22, 2018 +41

I completely agree with you. I think a lot of it has to do with the whole right/left as sports teams too. A President just made a comment as to wanting to take away guns first and due process second. That same President a week later said that America should think about getting rid of term limits for a President at some point. People do not see how these two comments are related. My wife is a h******* Democrat to the point where she doesn't even research canidates because she is voting blue regardless. When we talk about politics about 80% of her beliefs are right leaning except for social politics. My Grandfather will always vote Red regardless of the politics, but his beliefs are 99% left. That shouldn't happen.

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[deleted] Mar 22, 2018 +53

[deleted]

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bigshayne Mar 22, 2018 +20

I feel like it's more related to their money. Greed and advertisers wanting to pull out so they caved like a bih and did this. One of the reasons I say that is because while the gun stuff was banned. The weed and other drug threads were still up and weren't banned until people pointed them out, so that felt like a cover. Otherwise why wouldn't they have been hit by the initial banning? If someone's gonna say they had to go through it. Took them too long from when all the gun stuff was banned to starting the drug stuff 🤷🏼‍♂️

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[deleted] Mar 23, 2018 +11

Hey Listnook, I wanted to let you know that I love you so much that reading this comment actually made me cry, Because u/erichie is so right. This decision has made me lose some of the feelings I had towards Listnook before. It may sound completely insane, but this feeling is similar to loosing an SO or something to me. And for the record, I don't participate in any of these subs either, so that's not the reason this is so disappointing to me.

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the_unseen_one Mar 22, 2018 +63

You know, they broke the hands off policy years ago when they removed subs like /r/fatpeoplehate and /r/jailbait, neither of which broke federal laws. They may have been disgusting or offensive to sensibilities, but neither were illegal whatsoever. This is just a continuation of the degredation of what made this site what it is. It's going for the sterilized, family friendly look so they can rope in more advertisers. I'm betting that most p*** subs will get the axe next.

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Mord77 Mar 22, 2018 +376

Can you please not try to cover up your obvious planned sublistnook ban sweep using “new rule changes” as an excuse for censorship, when half the sublistnooks you guys mainly banned DIDNT even break the rules (or the “new” ones for that matter) but yet there’s still more than half the sub listnooks that actually DO need to get banned that haven’t been banned yet, it’s obvious as hell that you guys were just trying to find a way to get certain big sublistnooks considered “socially taboo” out of the site that were growing in popularity, r/darknetmarkets even had in their sublistnook rules to not solicit or request any transactions in the sublistnook, and to not make any posts as a listing or advertisement to promote any goods or services , (shit posts aside) the sub was literally mainly just for vendors reviews and having general discussion and talk about dark net sites, nothing about that exactly was illegal, they made sure the sublistnook followed listnook rules and *poof* still gets banned, don’t know why listnook would do such a thing I DO know that that sub was at at LEAST 150k+ subscribers before it got banned tho. r/shoplifting was pretty much the same deal, although they would talk and post about.. well..you guessed it, shoplifting and discuss their own experiences, nothing that was talked about or discussed in the sublistnook was exactly promoting the idea itself, although yes it’s a shady ass sub, it was technically breaking no rules, simply talking about crime isn’t a crime, unless it’s incitement which no one in the sublistnook did, and that sub gets banned too, hmm JUST as it was starting to boom in popularity these past months it was resting at almost 90k+ and strangely gets banned not even a week after someone wrote an ARTICLE about the sublistnook, giving it publicity, now all of these hot sublistnook simultaneously get banned at the same time, the SAME day this announcement gets posted, and y’all want to say it was because of this “rule change” that they got banned?? y’all are full of shit and y’all know it, this was a f****** premeditated set up operation, y’all aren’t fooling anyone. it’s completely obvious you guys were just wanting to take a few subs down, seeing as how this “new rule policy” isn’t even being enforced fairly and properly, the fact that the subs you guys banned weren’t even breaking any rules makes that more suspicious, and the fact y’all are trying to play it off AS because of the rule changes is a pretty big mock to our intelligence, everyone here knows Listnook’s been going soft lately but what y’all are doing now is just straight up censorship and that’s not right at all

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Hvatning Mar 22, 2018 +61

r/Darknetmarkets literally existed to make sure the things they were buying on COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SITES was legitimate. By banning the sublistnook they are literally deleting one of the few sources through which you can educate yourself on the climate of the Dark Net Markets. This is similar to the abstinence approach to sex. Don't teach them anything and maybe they won't have sex. People are going to buy drugs on the dark net, and listnook just banned an oddly friendly and supportive group that Literally Provided Drug Test Kits, Drug Information, and Peer Review of Vendors.

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Mord77 Mar 23, 2018 +16

And that is a perfect example of what censoring knowledge can and will do to the general public, people are still going to buy drugs off the market, banning a sub like that does nothing to change that, and now the people who decide to to try it out themselves won’t be as informed and educated on wtf they’re doing, that’s just putting more people at risk now to f*** up or do something stupid, which would probably be avoidable if the information they needed to learn was actually there, what if someone wants to try out the dark net, out of his own ambition, and now can’t find out how to set up a good OPSEC to keep them safe, all because of of that knowledge which could have been used was taken away

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[deleted] Mar 22, 2018 +688

[removed]

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[deleted] Mar 23, 2018 +25

[removed]

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ThaddeusJP Mar 21, 2018 +4247

Banned by my count: /r/cigarmarket /r/scotchswap /r/beermarket /r/beertrade /r/gundeals - UNBANNED AND OPEN AGAIN PUBLICLY APRIL 1ST /r/pipetobaccomarket /r/Stealing - Well yeah, I get this /r/shoplifting - Finally What am I missing? Edits: /r/canadagunsEE r/rcsources /r/gunsforsale /r/airsoftmarket /r/fakeid /r/darknetmarkets /r/dnstars /r/DarkWEBforum /r/SecretSniper /r/BrassSwap /r/gundealsFU /r/DankNation /r/DIY_Classifieds /r/DNMAus /r/ardeals /r/AKMarketplace /r/noveldissos /r/xanaxcartel /r/gunnitforward /r/darknetmarketindia /r/DarkNetMarketsNO /r/darknetmarketsOZ /r/airsoftmarketcanada /r/gun_deals /r/swapsell /r/KratomCowboys /r/DBZDokkanMarketplace /r/morethanetizolam /r/clonazolam /r/weeddeals ____ Updated: 03-23-18 - some were banned over a week ago however /r/ejuice /r/cagunexchange /r/maleescorts /r/SugarDaddy /r/SugarBabies /r/hookers /r/e****** /r/ccfraud /r/fairtomiddling /r/DarkMarketsBrasil /r/darkweb /r/shopliftingrp /r/rcsources /r/noveldissos /r/CBDflower /r/sanctionedsuicide /r/SteroidSourceTalk /r/wickr ________ Edit Edit: There are a TON of Dark Net Market (DNM) subs, too many to list, that were banned. Prob 15+. Edit again: I dont even know what half this stuff is! Final Edit: Looks to be around 50+, some I dont have. Im sure there will be more as the admins get reports from all over the place. [Hold you trade/sale subs close folks. You never know when its the last day.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQ3wpjdYMqk&t=5m12s) Edit from the grave: more updates Edit 4-16-17: seeing now gun deals was unbanned.

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sprackk Mar 21, 2018 +298

4 hours in and a fat portion of the important drug market information has been relocated successfully. At this rate it's not going to seriously interrupt illegal drug sales for even a full 24 hours. Clear market transactions are taking the real blow right now, especially the chunk of buyers/sellers that used listnook exclusively. They'll probably be disrupted for about a week, but keep in mind that's approximately 4,400 fiendyears. To sum it up, what a distasteful nuisance. Feel bad for you beer/cigar guys though, you guys don't have a worldwide coalition of dudes up on some heavy stim or another 24/7 OCDing over every nook and cranny of transactions/scam prevention. In the stim addicts we trust, godspeed guys. They may be twitchy, they may bite, but they're our frontliners!!

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[deleted] Mar 22, 2018 +128

[deleted]

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[deleted] Mar 21, 2018 +67

f*** listnook why did they have to ban rcsources when no actual sales were going on inside of the subs just giving harm reduction and where to purchase LEGAL chemicals so someone wouldnt get their hands on something dangerous. absolutely f****** stupid new rule doesnt even make sense for half the subs they banned it for

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ekpg Mar 21, 2018 +425

/r/BrassSwap LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!! /u/ThaddeusJP don't forget /r/gundealsFU, A literal REVIEW SUBLISTNOOK! No links or deals or sales were posted there! Just reviews of dealers and their customer service!

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mrstinkyfingers Mar 21, 2018 +118

They're creating a list over at /r/SublistnookDrama. https://www.listnook.com/r/SublistnookDrama/comments/8649ne/listnook_bans_using_listnook_as_a_marketplace_or_to/

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Umarill Mar 21, 2018 +392

They f****** banned /r/DBZDokkanMarketplace/ lmao, this was a sublistnook to trade or sell accounts from a mobile game. Hilarious.

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closetsquirrel Mar 22, 2018 +29

On /r/dokkanbattle one of the mods said they're trying to look into it to see if it's legit or if they're just caught in a wide net. On one hand, I get it, but on the other hand, when you look at everything else being banned, it's really night and day.

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PurifiedFlubber Mar 22, 2018 +234

If everything else didn't make it obvious, this did. They're trying to become so advertiser friendly they're going to enforce a product's ToS on Listnook.

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[deleted] Mar 21, 2018 +314

[deleted]

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[deleted] Mar 22, 2018 +79

listnook is f****** up in real time, and we're all here to watch they want to be something other than what they are, but there's no real way to get there. so they're going to destroy what was always good about listnook until they realize what they've done, but by then folks will have moved on. like happened with Digg. look at all the false starts and screwups over the last 3-4 years. and in the last 2 years especially.

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creaturecatzz Mar 22, 2018 +203

Aka exactly what Listnook was started as. Not the purpose for linking to places to buy things but the idea of being an aggregate. Pretty ironic when you think about it

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[deleted] Mar 21, 2018 +74

[deleted]

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codegamer1 Mar 21, 2018 +22

Airsoft guns are not firearms either... Be nice if the admins paid attention to their own rules. Could admins start cracking down on rules they have and do not enforce BEFORE making new rules and still not following them?

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krdshrk Mar 21, 2018 +1180

As a moderator of /r/cigars, does this completely curtail any contests or giveaways, including cigar-related accessories? We have monthly trades and gifts that run, as well as using the Listnook API for tracking of previous trades/gifts for flair and trustworthiness verification. This is such an overall broad restriction - please let us know how this affects us directly. It looks like it's removing one of the main things that brings our /r/cigars sub together - monthly themed trades, trading for hard to find items, gifts, and contests.

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Bossman1086 Mar 21, 2018 +207

They mentioned in another post where someone asked about this for /r/electronic_cigarette that giveaways are not allowed anymore. And all trade subs got banned (e.g. /r/beertrade, /r/cigarmarket, etc.) So yeah...you're fucked.

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osirhc Mar 21, 2018 +3451

Edit: **gundeals is back baby!!!** Seriously Listnook?! I can't believe you banned /r/gundeals! Gundeals and /r/gundealsFU were NEVER a marketplace for firearms, it's a collection of links to actual stores. You should seriously unban them! It's ridiculous that you're lumping gundeals in with other subs that facilitated illegal activities. Gundeals at no time ever violated or attempted to skirt any laws; everything was 100% in compliance with federal and local laws as **/r/gundeals was simply just a springboard for coupons and deal alerts** and all transactions took place off Listnook through the proper and licensed channels. **In NO WAY were there any illegal activities happening on /r/gundeals.** It was a great community full of people who just wanted to help others. I learned so much from the great group of people who made that community what it was. /r/gundeals was the #1 reason I visited Listnook. /r/gundealsFU was literally just a sub for reviews! Only text, images and links to Imgur were ever posted there, specifically about past purchases and experiences with the many companies that would post on, or end up on, via user submitted links, /r/gundeals. This leaves such a bad taste in my mouth as I know it does for everyone else here too. You have ruined what made Listnook so great in the first place. I've been a member on here for years but only recently rediscovered what made Listnook so great. You just took that away. Did you even give /r/gundeals a chance to review your new shitty policies before banning them? They could easily just remove firearm and ammo deals from postings since the majority of deals posted there were for accessories anyway! The very fact that you blanket banned /r/gundeals and /r/gundealsFU tells me you simply wanted to ban all gun related content for the sake of it; or because that's now the popular thing to do. You're not doing it for any noble cause no matter how badly you want it to look that way. You should be ashamed of yourselves. I hope all of the hundreds of thousands of subscribed users from /r/gundeals and /r/gundealsFU decide to stop using Listnook. ~~I'll never buy any Listnook Gold to support your ridiculous website. **I encourage everyone to stop buying Listnook Gold until they unban /r/gundeals and /r/gundealsFU**~~ ~~Edit: whoever gave me gold, that's some grade A trolling~~ Edit: thank you kind strangers for the gold! This is my highest upvoted comment ever and the first time (x3, x4 including a comment below) ever receiving gold. I initially thought the gold may have been given to me out of spite by individuals who opposed this view/agreed with Listnook's banning of gundeals. However it was explained to me in the comments below that many people have gold they've previously bought, just waiting for it to be given. This of course makes total sense however, in my frustration over Listnook's new policies, I did not think of this (I've never bought gold before either, so I was woefully uninformed before making that statement). Again, thank you, I appreciate y'all.

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kbkWz88 Mar 21, 2018 +318

For those of you as disappointed as I regarding r/gundeals being banned because ...of... I dont know... I'd like to offer a couple solutions for finding deals on firearms and ammunition elsewhere for when you close your Listnook account tonight. Guns (and ammo) www.Gun.deals www.Gunengine.com/deals www.Gun-deals.com (user submitted) Ammunition www.Ammoseek.com www.Gunbot.net These are just a few that I know of please feel free to add to the list and I will edit them in.... thanks in advance Edit: add v/gundeals on voat. Thanks u/Worktime83

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eck0 Mar 21, 2018 +184

Although I appreciate these additional resources they still don't fill the void that r/gundeals left. The commenters were able to provide valuable insight about products listed and alternatives as well

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supertomcat Mar 22, 2018 +57

This is fucked Listnook. A human reviewed it? Did you give these communities opportunities to comply to your new rules? Or did it go "here is our new rule, enforce it now" This site is made up of people. Different people, with different interests and opinions. That's what made Listnook great. Soon enough nothing will be left but the mods and the f****** Donald because God knows they don't talk about horrible f****** shit all day long. God forbid people post links to legal websites for deals. I'm not happy with this, A fighter jet Edit: I calmed down

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[deleted] Mar 22, 2018 +26

I think this whole policy change is ham-fisted censorship, but /r/gundeals got the shit end of this stick imo. Of course I'm not going to buy gold, but I think if you really want to effect change, you need to drive traffic somewhere else. If people start abandoning listnook for another site like people left digg for listnook a while back, the message will be sent more clearly.

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Freeman001 Mar 22, 2018 +34

In the end, only Listnook could kill Listnook. F*** you admins, you dun fucked up. You want your company to lose money? Ok, we can make that happen. First off, everyone look at those who are advertising on Listnook and contact them and tell them you will not buy their products as long as they advertise here. Then install adblocker. Or just head over to Voat or steemit. If Listnook wants to MySpace themselves, we can merely help them along.

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[deleted] Mar 22, 2018 +199

Listnook just wants to be Facebook Jr^TM but doesn’t understand that nobody wants another Facebook. We don’t even want the f****** Facebook we have. Listnook *used* to be an open place where I could see news and current events, some top notch pornographic content, and participate in discussion about things that I like. Many of the things I like, don’t have sizeable, active groups online. Let’s say for example I like guns, I like making knives, I like building furniture, I like shaving with a straight razor, and I like brewing beer. Outside of listnook, I’d have to be a member of many different forums and sites. Listnook kind of brought the internet together for me. There’s lots of people, discussing anything and everything imaginable. I’m pretty sure this whole deal is just listnook being political on the gun issue. I don’t think alcohol or tobacco had a damn thing to do with this, but that’s just an opinion. I’ve only been on listnook for a couple years, but just in that time, I’ve seen listnook continually slip further and further away from what it’s users want. We don’t want a goddam Facebook. F*** Facebook, f*** advertisements, f*** censorship, f*** political agendas, f*** the constant redesign of the site to a shittier and shittier format. The longer I stay on listnook, the more I realize that it’s just a waste of my time. You’re slowly taking away the only thing that made listnook different and worth my time. I’m just ranting. Farewell listnook! Go f*** yourself in the ass with that roll of dollar bills you love so much. I’m done.

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whoistydurden Mar 23, 2018 +16

https://www.listnook.com/r/announcements/comments/863xcj/new_addition_to_sitewide_rules_regarding_the_use/dw2ofuz/ We will tirelessly defend the right to freely share information on listnook in any way we can, even if it is offensive or discusses something that may be illegal. — u/listnook 2012 We stand for free speech. This means we are not going to ban distasteful sublistnooks. We will not ban legal content even if we find it odious or if we personally condemn it. Not because that's the law in the United States - because as many people have pointed out, privately-owned forums are under no obligation to uphold it - but because we believe in that ideal independently, and that's what we want to promote on our platform. We are clarifying that now because in the past it wasn't clear, and (to be honest) in the past we were not completely independent and there were other pressures acting on listnook. Now it's just listnook, and we serve the community, we serve the ideals of free speech, and we hope to ultimately be a universal platform for human discourse (cat pictures are a form of discourse). — u/yishan 2012

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SnowmanProphet Mar 21, 2018 +2140

So why lump Firearms in with drugs, prostitution, theft, and falsifying documents? Last I checked, guns were still legal in the U.S. Will the Secret Santa program be canceled since personal information is swapped? If "Listnook is not intended to be used as a marketplace" and the banning of tobacco-related sublistnooks is justifiable since it's a "controlled substance", where does that leave r/Gamedeals? Games rated M and above can't be purchased without being an adult, so how is that different ( [turns out, there's no law on age restriction and games](https://www.listnook.com/r/announcements/comments/863xcj/new_addition_to_sitewide_rules_regarding_the_use/dw2uwj2/?context=3) )? What about r/deals in general? What about alcohol related sublistnooks? r/Gundeals does more than link users to deals on firearms, as it's a great way to find sales on accessories. Was this considered when the decision was made? Were the Mods notified or able to formally appeal the decision ( [surprise. They weren't](https://www.listnook.com/r/announcements/comments/863xcj/new_addition_to_sitewide_rules_regarding_the_use/dw2dfqq/) )? Moreover, no firearms are sold on that sublistnook. Any firearm purchased over the internet must be shipped to a local FFL with the completion form 4473 and a background check. It seems like a vain attempt to save face in light of Russian Trolls and Section 230 by censoring sensitive topics. Obviously Listnook is a private company and can filter whatever they want. However, I recall the Admins being quite adamant about preserving Net Neutrality since "unapproved" content could be filtered by ISPs. If not for trolls or possible legislation regarding the internet, what is prompting this change of policy? Advertisers? Taking advantage of anti-gun sentiment? Appealing to a wider audience (so where does that leave p*** sublistnooks and r/WTF)? Edit: Link to other comments Edit 2: Other users have pointed out there aren't any laws that restrict those under a certain age from purchasing video games. I've added the source above and [here.](https://www.listnook.com/r/announcements/comments/863xcj/new_addition_to_sitewide_rules_regarding_the_use/dw2uwj2/?context=3)

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turkeypedal Mar 22, 2018 +301

You know what? I'm actually pro-gun control, and even I can see how this is ridiculous. You've gone through and banned subs without any warning, not giving them a chance to change their policy or set up another place to meet or anything. You're also clearly overreaching, rather than just doing the minimum this new policy would require. A lot of gun-related stuff simply links to existing sites, and no actual sales take place on the site. **By this specific policy, those should be fine.** But you are banning them, proving once again that you are just lying. It's not even like you're going to get kudos from the gun control community. We're mostly all liberals, and we see the lying and bullshit that you use to justify the existence of the_donald. In fact, you once again show you are giving that sub special treatment, since you talk with the mods there and try to settle things without banning them. And it doesn't even work as a good business decision. You are planning to soon make a new UI. So you should be minimizing big changes. The bigger the changes, the more likely you are to piss people off and make them leave. And you seem to forget that no one learns about Listnook except from current Listnook users. The fewer of those you have, the fewer new users you have. **tldr: It takes a lot to make a gun control advocate think a policy banning the sale of guns on a platform is absolutely bullshit. Congratulations.**

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levins0 Mar 22, 2018 +165

Howdy /u/Listnook-Policy. I'm a mod for /r/pipetobacco. We need some clarification of the new rules that are now in effect, to make sure the sub remains in compliance. 1) Members of the sub often ask about recommendations for tobacco purchases based on what they might like. Are we allowed to recommend things for them to buy? 2) Are we allowed to recommend online vendors or brick-and-mortar shops for their shopping needs (like if they ask where the best place is to buy xyz tobacco)? Often when a member is traveling they'll ask for recommended local shops. 3) Are we allowed to post when a hard-to-find or rare blend is in stock at a particular location so that other sub members can go there to purchase? Some shops have seasonal blends -- can we post when they launch so people know they're available? 4) Are we allowed to post when a sale or coupon is available at a particular vendor? Black Friday deals? International Pipe Smoking Day sales? Etc? Thank you.

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blenheim45 Mar 22, 2018 +15

And don't you like the way they threw the baby out with the bath water. Mustn't have any tobacco being sold so let's kill the site, so we can't have any pipes or accessories being sold. As far as I know tobacco pipes are not banned or even regulated anywhere. So what is the reasoning behind that? Oh yeah, don't have to have any reasoning, we have this big hammer. And it isn't even like the tobacco being traded or sold was "bootleg", the tobacco taxes had been collected at one time or another on the original purchase. So what does that leave to object to? Trades? Hey even if a kid found his way onto the site, and managed to hang around long enough and make enough comments to be viewed as a legit member (you could NOT just sign into the site and then arrange to sell or trade on the site, you had to prove your bona fides to do so), he had to already have pipe tobacco to trade for other tobacco. And as for buying tobacco, well why would he seek out a site to pay a premium price (for premium tobacco of course) when he could buy it cheaper through other on line sites? Besides when was the last time you saw a kid smoking a pipe? Kids smoke cigarettes, or possibly cigarillos, or if from North Carolina they chew. But they don't smoke pipes, not with tobacco anyway. You have just compounded mistake after mistake on this whole deal. Well you know what, you do not have the only game in town. Hope you enjoy wearing suits instead of tees and shorts, I am sure the suits will look good when you have to start applying for your next jobs.

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DoctorKamikaze Mar 21, 2018 +2343

This was from /u/spez 15 days ago [Here](https://www.listnook.com/r/announcements/comments/827zqc/in_response_to_recent_reports_about_the_integrity/dv8da62/): >We don’t take banning subs lightly. Each sub is reviewed by a human—and in some cases, a team of humans—before it is banned for a content policy violation. In cases where a sub’s sole purpose is in direct violation of our policies (i.e. sharing of involuntary p***), we will ban a sub outright. But generally before banning, we attempt to work with the mods to clarify our expectations and policies regarding what content is welcome. >Communities do evolve over time, sometimes positively and sometimes negatively, so we do need to re-review communities from time to time, which is what's going on in this case. Revenue isn't a factor. How do you reconcile this action with that of what he has said in just the last two weeks? Your actions are showing exactly what is a factor and what isn't... It sounds like you had 0 conversations with any of these mods; and frankly it's becoming absolute bullshit.

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vegetaman Mar 22, 2018 +337

Yeah, for as big as gundeals was, it sounds like it was a hammer drop out of nowhere. Nice job talking out of both sides of your mouth at once, admins.

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[deleted] Mar 22, 2018 +238

/r/gundeals mod here, they did not reach out to us at all other than the ban message. They did message some other gun related subs I mod to say that those subs were in compliance. My question is, if the subs were in compliance why did they say anything about it? Seems suspicious.

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[deleted] Mar 22, 2018 +53

I assumption is that the element of surprise is something they wanted. The amount of a shitstorm going on right now is minimal and contained to a small amount of subs. Compare that to the shitstorm had they given you and other mods of other subs advanced warning. They would have absolutely lost their shit. It is just a p**** move by Listnook to ban communities out of nowhere.

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ani625 Mar 22, 2018 +127

> But generally before banning, we attempt to work with the mods to clarify our expectations and policies regarding what content is welcome. Lies.

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AyrA_ch Mar 22, 2018 +55

I like how they knew this was going to be so unpopular, they created an account a day ago to announce this change. EDIT: [Also this](https://redd.it/86amxp). I knew the karma count is off on purpose but that much? Seriously?

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volkl47 Mar 22, 2018 +66

Every time I turn off my ad blocker for a while and think about buying gold, you go and do something like this. Thanks for saving me money, I guess. You know what would be great? If Listnook could **ever** manage to make any sort of big policy change in a coherent and non-arbitrary way. You no longer want to be involved in certain things. I may disagree with a bunch of those, but that's fine, I guess. But why is Listnook's response always to just ban a bunch of things in a ham-handed fashion with no notice to their communities beforehand? You could have accomplished the same thing by telling /r/scotchswap that trading alcohol is no longer going to be allowed on Listnook rather than banning the sub. They could move their community off the site to somewhere else in an orderly fashion, and you'd have far less discontent. Not to mention banning subs which don't even appear to violate this new policy. Why not at least *try* to talk to those subs and mods before banning them? This sort of thing is why the users of this site perpetually distrust you and regularly show their dislike of how it's administered.

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LynchMob_Lerry Mar 21, 2018 +1594

So Im a mod over at /r/AKMarketplace and just found out it was banned. I got no message it was going to happen and no way of giving feedback or chance to defend myself, which in all honesty is really crappy. I understand your wanting to cover yourself, but at the sametime it would be nice if you go in touch with the people that actually run these places to see whats going on. Now if I may try to appeal to you about it, if someone buys a firearm over the internet it is required by federal law that, that firearm be shipped to a FFL so that a NICS background check can be done on the person buying it. If that does not happen then both parties are commenting a felony. We are very strict with those rules and make sure they are followed. If you do not want to allow that to happen then you should have reached out to the mods of those subs and said 'Hey these are the new rules, you have X time to become compliant or the sub gets banned'. It would have been a lot nicer then this knee jerk reaction. I would love for my sub to be unbanned, if that is in anyway possible please let me know. If there is a sub I mod and there are future changes like this then give us a heads up first. Maybe having a dialog first could prevent some confusion.

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[deleted] Mar 21, 2018 +5676

[deleted]

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cynoclast Mar 21, 2018 +643

### A brief history of listnook: We want to democratize the traditional model by giving editorial control to the people who use the site, not those who run it. — Listnook FAQ 2005 We've always benefited from a policy of not censoring content — u/kn0thing 2008 A bastion of free speech on the World Wide Web? I bet they would like it," he replies. [listnook]'s the digital form of political pamplets. — u/kn0thing 2012 We will tirelessly defend the right to freely share information on listnook in any way we can, even if it is offensive or discusses something that may be illegal. — u/listnook 2012 We stand for free speech. This means we are not going to ban distasteful sublistnooks. We will not ban legal content even if we find it odious or if we personally condemn it. Not because that's the law in the United States - because as many people have pointed out, privately-owned forums are under no obligation to uphold it - but because we believe in that ideal independently, and that's what we want to promote on our platform. We are clarifying that now because in the past it wasn't clear, and (to be honest) in the past we were not completely independent and there were other pressures acting on listnook. Now it's just listnook, and we serve the community, we serve the ideals of free speech, and we hope to ultimately be a universal platform for human discourse (cat pictures are a form of discourse). — u/yishan 2012 Neither Alexis [u/kn0thing] nor I created Listnook to be a bastion of free speech — u/spez 2015

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[deleted] Mar 22, 2018 +175

[deleted]

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Anomaline Mar 22, 2018 +130

I like how there's a new /u/Listnook-Policy account designed to prevent the admins from having to personally take flak for their decisions anymore as well.

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eduardog3000 Mar 22, 2018 +91

Ha, /u/Listnook-Policy somehow has 3300 post karma and 1600 comment karma despite literally every single one of its posts and comments being deep into the negatives.

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The_Alaskan Mar 21, 2018 +532

/u/lpisme, I suspect it's because of [the impending change to Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act of 1996](https://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2018/03/21/591622450/section-230-a-key-legal-shield-for-facebook-google-is-about-to-change). The changes about to be approved by Congress would put Listnook at legal risk if those subs were allowed to continue.

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Fnhatic Mar 21, 2018 +60

If this were about Section 230 they would've said so. Because that would be a good cover for them. But they didn't mention it at all. They just gave shitty corporate excuses.

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ShartFlex Mar 21, 2018 +1100

Don't worry, I just heard two MIT students have come up with a way to figure out what wine you like based on a quiz.

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peekaayfire Mar 21, 2018 +59

I heard one MIT student wanted to speed up his download of documents that he was legally entitled to download. This is the real dregs of society

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[deleted] Mar 21, 2018 +1346

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mghoffmann Mar 22, 2018 +66

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Aanon89 Mar 22, 2018 +26

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mghoffmann Mar 22, 2018 +19

💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 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DawnBlue Mar 23, 2018 +6

💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 💵💰💵💰 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6

theDeadliestSnatch Mar 21, 2018 +2980

To quote u/spez >We don’t take banning subs lightly. Each sub is reviewed by a human—and in some cases, a team of humans—before it is banned for a content policy violation. In cases where a sub’s sole purpose is in direct violation of our policies (i.e. sharing of involuntary p***), we will ban a sub outright. But generally before banning, we attempt to work with the mods to clarify our expectations and policies regarding what content is welcome. >Communities do evolve over time, sometimes positively and sometimes negatively, so we do need to re-review communities from time to time, which is what's going on in this case. Revenue isn't a factor. https://www.listnook.com/r/announcements/comments/827zqc/z/dv8da62 2 Weeks later, ban subs they disagree with without talking to those subs mods.

2980

JiminP Mar 22, 2018 +703

Also from [this post](https://www.listnook.com/r/blog/comments/pmj7f/a_necessary_change_in_policy/) 6 years ago... $emphasis mine$ >We understand that this might make some of you **worried about the slippery slope from banning one specific type of content to banning other types of content**. We're concerned about that too, and do not make this policy change lightly or without careful deliberation. We will **tirelessly defend the right to freely share information on listnook** in any way we can, **even if it is offensive or discusses something that may be illegal**. However, child p********** is a toxic and unique case for Internet communities, and we're protecting listnook's ability to operate by removing this threat. We remain committed to protecting listnook as an open platform.

703

[deleted] Mar 22, 2018 +95

> We understand that this might make some of you worried about the slippery slope from banning one specific type of content to banning other types of content. We're concerned about that too, and do not make this policy change lightly or without careful deliberation. We will tirelessly defend the right to freely share information on listnook in any way we can, even if it is offensive or discusses something that may be illegal. However, child p********** is a toxic and unique case for Internet communities, and we're protecting listnook's ability to operate by removing this threat. We remain committed to protecting listnook as an open platform. Looks like /u/spez is a sellout

95

FreeSpeechWarrior Mar 22, 2018 +12

> We stand for free speech. This means we are not going to ban distasteful sublistnooks. We will not ban legal content even if we find it odious or if we personally condemn it. Not because that's the law in the United States - because as many people have pointed out, privately-owned forums are under no obligation to uphold it - but because we believe in that ideal independently, and that's what we want to promote on our platform. We are clarifying that now because in the past it wasn't clear, and (to be honest) in the past we were not completely independent and there were other pressures acting on listnook. Now it's just listnook, and we serve the community, we serve the ideals of free speech, and we hope to ultimately be a universal platform for human discourse (cat pictures are a form of discourse). > > — /u/yishan

12

[deleted] Mar 21, 2018 +66

[deleted]

66

theDeadliestSnatch Mar 22, 2018 +52

This is a shit f****** precedent to set. If I post a picture of one of my guns on r/guns, and someone asks me where I got a certain accessory or part, am I facilitating a sale when I tell them, because that's what r/gundeals was.

52

GothicSilencer Mar 21, 2018 +828

Strongly considering deleting my Listnook account now, and I've never participated in any of the banned activities. The fact that you've decided to squash beertrades and similar subs means this isn't the site I originally signed up for. It's great that you've achieved some financial success, but many of us came here for the freedom and the community that used to exist, not the new community that is OK with losing freedoms. Listnook is my news aggregator, how I keep in touch with fandom communities like DBZ, DnD, Overwatch, Warhammer 40k, and the like, but I chose to do those things here because of the freedom of moderators to create a sublistnook devoted to anything, and if it was something you didn't want to see or be a part of, you just didn't subscribe to that sublistnook. Now you've gone corporate and this is no longer a free space to create whatever kind of community you want. Now you can only create communities that Corporate okays, and that's not ok to me.

828

Dcoil1 Mar 21, 2018 +4287

There isn't a quantifiable unit for the amount of "Go f*** yourself" I feel towards listnook right now. God forbid people engage in activity such as the transaction of goods and services THAT ARE COMPLETELY LEGAL. Even worse, IMAGINE THE HORROR of a sublistnook created to point users towards DEALS PUT OUT BY RETAILERS of yet ANOTHER LEGAL ACTIVITY. But hey, lets go ahead and let hate groups and doxxers remain, because First Amendment, right? F*** the other amendments and otherwise legal activities, right? You know what sublistnooks like /r/gundeals, /r/gunsforsale, /r/beertrade have NEVER done? ANYTHING F****** ILLEGAL OR INFLAMMATORY. Sure as shit can't say the same for T_D, incels or any of the other god awful subs that were allowed to flourish for so long. Holy shit, listnook just caved to the vocal minority of asshats that hate everything. Or even if listnook never recieved any direct flak over any of these banned subs, this preemptive, save-our-asses move is the weakest, dumbest and most pathetic thing you could have done. Go. F***. Yourselves.

4287

stephcunn Mar 21, 2018 +22

Listen, we're all sick of censorship here. Why do you have to do this? Why not let individual subs decide their own rules? If a sublistnook doesn't want their users to advertise these services, they'll make this rule. You have no need or reason to. We don't want any more sublistnooks banned. Zero. None. For any reason. Ever. Whatsoever. If people don't like the content of a sub, they can avoid it and join or create subs they do like. >Listnook is not built to ensure that the sales are happening legally You're under no obligation to. You're not liable for the actions of site users or you would have been shut down a decade ago. There is absolutely zero need for any top-down censorship on this site. I've been disheartened by this lately. You don't care about any of us. You just care about not getting your name in some sensationalist CNN story. Listnook use to be the bastion of free speech on the internet. What do we have to do to return to this? EDIT: Join me here! I just created a sub, https://www.listnook.com/r/ListnookAgainstCensors/, to fight against censorship. Both censorship by governments, AND by private entities - in this case, Listnook. It's pretty bare for now, but please introduce yourselves there. We have to fight. This has gone on far too long. We must oppose censorship on ALL fronts, with no excuses, no caveats, and certainly no exceptions. We have to do something before it's too late - more and more governments restrict speech and try to regulate online content every day, the Listnook admins make more site-wide rules every few months and tear communities apart, after promising that each time was a "rare exception." We have to DO something. Please introduce yourself in the post on this sublistnook and let's band together!

22

arkangel371 Mar 21, 2018 +219

This is a perfect example of corporate thought policing. The listnook higher ups have now indicated they see no distinction between prostitution, illicit drugs, identity theft, and the use or ownership of firearms/alcohol. I honestly will not be surprised if in the coming months we see subs that don't link individuals for purchases of firearms/alcohol/tobacco such as r/guns or r/cigars still getting banned because they simply don't align with the beliefs of the admins. It is about control, plain and simple.

219

olmikeyy Mar 21, 2018 +455

You can tell there isn't much understanding of what those subs actually did beyond the shallow "guns are bad" level of thinking. Those subs consisted entirely of responsible and legal citizens who were merely trying to help each other save some money. I don't see what the admins expect to accomplish from this other than a meaningless political gesture.

455

tautlinehitch Mar 21, 2018 +751

I don’t think gun deals goes away. Those aren’t transactions made on Listnook. EDIT: While the words of the policy change don’t apply to r/gundeals, they removed that sub anyway. F*** YOU!

751

Shadilay_Were_Off Mar 21, 2018 +1309

Why the group account? None of the people at HQ want to stand behind a massively unpopular, unnecessary decision? God, you people get more and more spineless every day. I hope your company crashes, burns, and gets bought by a raider for pennies on the dollar, the pieces scattered to the wind, and every manager gets to live with the stigma of killing what was formerly the front page of the internet rather than tell outragemongers to go screw themselves. F*** Listnook, f*** /u/spez (since this is *your* decision at the end of the day), and f*** your craven, gutless, cowardly inability to stand up to words on a screen when they're not full-throated praise. Edit: Double f*** /u/spez for suspending me for this.

1309

funderbunk Mar 21, 2018 +156

Because they're f****** chickenshit assholes. They know this is bullshit, they know users will hate it, but they don't give a f***. But gotta protect their precious karma.

156

nihilo503 Mar 22, 2018 +38

> Why the group account? That’s the strange thing here. If you’re the CEO of a company and announce a major policy change that you know will upset a large portion of your users, have some balls and be the face of it. Maybe u/spez should ask his wife to borrow some of her backbone.

38

[deleted] Mar 21, 2018 +1505

So why was r/gundeals banned when there are no transactions taking place between users on this website? It was merely people posting links to retail stores, and said stores are selling firearms and firearm accessories? Edit: also: >Firearms, ammunition, or explosives; >Drugs, including alcohol and tobacco, or any controlled substances (except advertisements placed in accordance with our advertising policy); >Paid services involving physical sexual contact; >Stolen goods; >Personal information; >Falsified official documents or currency So this was strictly a ban on guns, because except for the alcohol and tobacco, every one of the other things you mentioned are already illegal. Real cute lumping in legal guns with a bunch of illegal items/services. EDIT 2: You know what? I'm out. Been on this website for 7 years on this account, 2 years on an account before and it has consistently gone downhill. It's only a matter of time before you end up banning all gunsubs like youtube is doing with firearm channels right now. Thanks for freeing up a lot of my time.

1505

TheNamelessKing Mar 21, 2018 +70

They also created a shitty f****** "Listnook policy" account to announce this rather than owning up to it and pressing from one of their own accounts. I'd that's not a sign they're trying ha are to go down the shitty-corporate route, I don't know what is.

70

DownvoteEveryCat Mar 21, 2018 +1120

So basically, you made up a seemingly reasonable policy to ban the sale of things that almost never get sold on Listnook and are all illegal. You added in a blanket "firearms, ammunition, and explosives" as if normal people dealing in the first and second ever dabble in the third. Then you use what looks like a reasonable rule to prevent non-existent illegal activity to justify the banning of /r/gundeals, which tangentially touches on the one legal thing in your rule, but does NOT actually solicit or facilitate transactions, and doesn't actually violate the new "reasonable" rule. This is complete bullshit, listnook. Even for you, this is shameful. F*** you.

1120

[deleted] Mar 21, 2018 +1187

[deleted]

1187

caninehere Mar 21, 2018 +199

I f****** hate guns, am all for stronger gun control laws, and would never buy one myself. But the fact that /r/gundeals got banned pisses me off. There are no transactions going on between users there, sales or trades. It's all about linking good deals, no? Which is one of the best damn things Listnook is good for. If /r/gamedeals got banned I would f****** explode in fury. You guys have every right to be pissed and I say that as an anti-gun guy. All this does is take away people's ability to find good deals to buy guns in a safe, legal manner. And if it's harder to find good deals they're gonna resort to other avenues. What's even worse is that they suddenly made a change to their policies and INSTANTLY banned the communities for (supposedly) violating them. They didn't even have a chance to adjust.

199

stephcunn Mar 21, 2018 +13

Listen, we're all sick of censorship here. Why do you have to do this? Why not let individual subs decide their own rules? If a sublistnook doesn't want their users to advertise these services, they'll make this rule. You have no need or reason to. We don't want any more sublistnooks banned. Zero. None. For any reason. Ever. Whatsoever. If people don't like the content of a sub, they can avoid it and join or create subs they do like. >Listnook is not built to ensure that the sales are happening legally You're under no obligation to. You're not liable for the actions of site users or you would have been shut down a decade ago. There is absolutely zero need for any top-down censorship on this site. I've been disheartened by this lately. You don't care about any of us. You just care about not getting your name in some sensationalist CNN story. Listnook use to be the bastion of free speech on the internet. What do we have to do to return to this? EDIT: Join me here! I just created a sub, https://www.listnook.com/r/ListnookAgainstCensors/, to fight against censorship. Both censorship by governments, AND by private entities - in this case, Listnook. It's pretty bare for now, but please introduce yourselves there. We have to fight. This has gone on far too long. We must oppose censorship on ALL fronts, with no excuses, no caveats, and certainly no exceptions. We have to do something before it's too late - more and more governments restrict speech and try to regulate online content every day, the Listnook admins make more site-wide rules every few months and tear communities apart, after promising that each time was a "rare exception." We have to DO something. Please introduce yourself in the post on this sublistnook and let's band together!

13

bluemosquito Mar 21, 2018 +34

There are 500,000+ defensive uses of firearms every year in the US per the CDC (2013). This dwarfs gun crimes. It's not the gangbangers that these listnook policies affect. It's the law abiding gun owners who just want to enjoy America's oldest sport, defend their families, and protect their freedoms. This censorship across listnook/youtube/etc. is just preventing the good guys from being educated and safe. Very upsetting.

34

tehallmighty Mar 21, 2018 +290

f*** you. you are only doing this cause corporate is covering their asses probably because they're now saying the austin bomber used online exchanges to get the parts. well f*** you for violating the 1st amendment. you would think that for such a proponent of freedom, you assholes can be real f****** sellouts AND THATS EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE DOING, SELLING OUT. i hope to god this site burns the f*** down and that your families live in shame. i'm going to show everyone the message i sent /u/spez because i at least want somebody to read it rather than it just get thrown in the trash. your new site policy concerning the exchange of goods is going to do much more harm than good, as well as showing you to be corporate sellouts. >Firearms, ammunition, or explosives; this is legitimate and you are most likely just covering your asses, thinking the austin bomber got his parts off of here. you are most likely wrong but lets just assume you are for the sake of this argument. With that being said, you are letting one bad apple ruin the bunch. >Drugs, including alcohol and tobacco, or any controlled substances (except advertisements placed in accordance with our advertising policy); do you see the problem here? you are just downright admitting that you are selling out. and not only that, with these sublistnooks now gone, you have just greatly increased the risk factor of these services as opposed to people making well informed choices. How much did the DEA or big pharma pay you for this? >Paid services involving physical sexual contact yet your sex markets sublistnook is still up which in itself is the selling of sexual contact. hypocrite >Stolen goods; you know what, that one is fair. i'll give you that one. >Personal information; so like you do to advertisers? >Falsified official documents or currency i take it you should now ban /r/cryptocurrency as well? your policy changes are only going to hurt the company as well as lose you users. but that paycheck must be really nice. hypocrite. you do not stand for the users, you stand only for your paycheck. how much was it, i hope it was enough for you to live with yourself, you have unintentionally just killed people through a lack of information.

290

PM_ME_FAT_FURRYGIRLS Mar 21, 2018 +651

Is there going to be any time to "clean up" subs that participate in these kinds of things? /r/beertrade has already been banned, but subs like /r/cigars have massive trading communities within their sub. Will these big subs have time to update their policies and ban trading, or are you going to just shut them down ASAP like /r/beertrade? Edit: Received an answer to this [here](https://www.listnook.com/r/announcements/comments/863xcj/new_addition_to_sitewide_rules_regarding_the_use/dw274c6/). Subs that are not "primarily functioning as marketplaces" are not being banned, but admins will "work with them" to stop all trading.

651

[deleted] Mar 21, 2018 +479

/r/gundeals was not buying and selling between users. It was users posting good deals from legal stores/websites... Yet it was banned. Unbelievable. Edit: it was the equivalent to /r/gamedeals

479

Th3_Admiral Mar 21, 2018 +246

Or how about /r/brassswap which was just for people looking to exchange empty brass casings which they could then use to reload ammunition. It's literally just empty pieces of brass - that's not considered "ammunition" by anyone!

246

LickMyThralls Mar 21, 2018 +74

It sounds like saying *Walmart has a deal on x gun*. And banning that is just stupid. It doesn't even fall under any of this. And the fact they got brass swap which appeared to be just brass is comical because it looks like they got a bit overzealous with assuming brass meant live ammo for some reason. This whole thing sounds stupid. They're allowed to ban and allow whatever they want but boy is the inconsistency maddening.

74

[deleted] Mar 21, 2018 +69

[deleted]

69

jdmgto Mar 21, 2018 +40

The banned subs that didn't even fall under their own guidelines. /r/gundeals wasn't a market place or for trading. It was literally "There's a good deal over at this website "

40

cascer1 Mar 21, 2018 +300

Our users in r/diabetes sometimes offer to give eachother spare insulin or other diabetic supplies such as infusion sets, test strips, lancets, and injection needles. As far as I'm aware, these aren't controlled substances so the policy change wouldn't apply to those submissions. I believe that we have saved several lives with some of the generous gifts our members have given, and think it would be bad if this were to become forbidden. We'd be happy to include the disclaimer that you included in your post too, to make sure people understand these transactions are not the responsibility of listnook in any case.

300

neuromorph Mar 21, 2018 +237

Does the policy cover firearm accessories? Not the firearms themselves? What about shooting sport sublistnooks where or reloading sublistnooks? How are these affected? As I see other items in the policy, listnook is now considering firearms, and illegal product? can you please also add illegal car modifications to your banned items list. I've seen many illegal mods sold on car enthusiast and street racing subs.

237

longhorn617 Mar 21, 2018 +1248

Your policy on /r/gundeals is absolutely ridiculous. No guns are sold on /r/gundeals, and there are no user-to-user sales. To purchase a gun through a post on /r/gundeals, a user has to click on the link to the website of a FFL dealer, who are licensed through the BATFE. The gun must be purchased from that FFL dealer, and then shipped to another FFL dealer, and a background check must be done through NICS for said purchase, regardless of the type of gun that was purchased. Edit: I was going to call out some other bullshit that is still unbanned, but I'm not going to contribute to the admins bullshit campaign.

1248

flickerkuu Mar 21, 2018 +125

r/gundeals was a sub that was extremely useful for buying absolutely LEGAL products. Many people used it as a price database as well. You are costing people thousands of dollars now that go straight to gun manufacturers, instead of saving the community and keeping money in the community. You are doing NOTHING to stop any crime, problem, or criminal activity. You ARE driving law abiding citizens to find other, more expensive, and possibly illegal means of obtainment. There are thousands of listnook users that ONLY use that sublistnook. you just kissed them all goodbye. Why? Stupid optics? You leave T_D and other drug related and illegal related sublistnooks, but choose the flavor of the week political "correctness". Pathetic, you guys just lost ALL my respect. This place is becoming a joke. A useless joke.

125

[deleted] Mar 21, 2018 +4763

> Drugs, including alcohol and tobacco, or any controlled substances (**except advertisements placed in accordance with our advertising policy**); Thanks for that second part, I was almost worried that I wouldn't be able to see the exact same stupid, unwanted, unblockable promoted ad for that stupid wine company run by two MIT grads that no one gives a shit about every time that I scroll through Listnook on mobile for more than 30 seconds.

4763

treycartier91 Mar 21, 2018 +1264

These things are bad, you cant sell here! Except when we profit from it.

1264

falleng213 Mar 22, 2018 +154

I’ve been reporting these ads for spam every chance I get cause I don’t give a F*** about “taking a test to see what wines match with me!”

154

peekaayfire Mar 21, 2018 +337

Is listnook going to take a stance against accounts using their platform as command and control staging? I see accounts posting hash values only, clearly abusing your platform. How is there no button for me to press to report someones account for being a command and control bot? edit: example: https://www.listnook.com/user/ff896c183c8aa046d99a edit2: the point I'm trying to make is, if you genuinely wish to STOP the practices from the OP, you NEED to stop these command and control operations, otherwise you genuinely cannot be sure the practice is stopped. Now if all you want is non-attribution to the rendering of these services, I expect you will be fine with the command and control bots (many of whom can be coordinating the exact illicit activities you've spelled out above or worse)

337

eydirect Mar 21, 2018 +370

/u/HogarthFleegman /u/spez /u/Listnook-Policy I understand the banning of /r/darknetmarkets (even though advertisements where quickly removed and users banned), but why the ban of /r/dnstars - a sublistnook solely focussed on the reduction of harm by crowd/community-funding laberatory tests to test drugs sold online. That place was meant to keep people safe from scummy drug-dealers. While I can understand that you dont want the sales of drugs on your platform, the banning of /r/dnstars is absurd. The war on drugs does not work and keeping people safe was DNSTARS only priority, and should be Listnook's too.

370

[deleted] Mar 21, 2018 +287

[deleted]

287

neuromorph Mar 21, 2018 +1880

You have banned /r/gundeals Did you give mods a chance to remove firearms listing from their submissions? That sub offered significantly more than just firearms, ammunition, and explosive transactions. in fact no transactions were coordinated between users in that sub. It was no different than a couponing sub. Nothing was user to user. Please reevaluate that sub ban, since firearm accessories are a large part of that community.

1880

Bahbert Mar 21, 2018 +120

I agree. There were no person-to-person transactions taking place on this sub; it was only for posting links to legal retailers. If by "facilitate a transaction" you mean to include subs that "let others know of a deal," then this ban seems a bit excessive.

120

stephcunn Mar 21, 2018 +11

Listen, we're all sick of censorship here. Why do you have to do this? Why not let individual subs decide their own rules? If a sublistnook doesn't want their users to advertise these services, they'll make this rule. You have no need or reason to. We don't want any more sublistnooks banned. Zero. None. For any reason. Ever. Whatsoever. If people don't like the content of a sub, they can avoid it and join or create subs they do like. >Listnook is not built to ensure that the sales are happening legally You're under no obligation to. You're not liable for the actions of site users or you would have been shut down a decade ago. There is absolutely zero need for any top-down censorship on this site. I've been disheartened by this lately. You don't care about any of us. You just care about not getting your name in some sensationalist CNN story. Listnook use to be the bastion of free speech on the internet. What do we have to do to return to this? EDIT: Join me here! I just created a sub, https://www.listnook.com/r/ListnookAgainstCensors/, to fight against censorship. Both censorship by governments, AND by private entities - in this case, Listnook. It's pretty bare for now, but please introduce yourselves there. We have to fight. This has gone on far too long. We must oppose censorship on ALL fronts, with no excuses, no caveats, and certainly no exceptions. We have to do something before it's too late - more and more governments restrict speech and try to regulate online content every day, the Listnook admins make more site-wide rules every few months and tear communities apart, after promising that each time was a "rare exception." We have to DO something. Please introduce yourself in the post on this sublistnook and let's band together!

11

PattonPending Mar 21, 2018 +565

And it wasn't even sales between users. It was just a bulletin board for deals and coupons to various Federal Firearm Licensed dealers.

565

G19Gen3 Mar 21, 2018 +301

Yeah gundeals wasn’t breaking these new rules at all. Hey so do you know where I can go for a similar site? Is there a broad forum that posts gun deals? Is there a gun deals discord? PM me, I guess, so it doesn’t immediately get removed.

301

Pher63 Mar 21, 2018 +16

Not an end all be all...but MeWe has plenty (maybe too many) groups where firearm selling, trading and deal awareness is openly encouraged. It doesn't have the user backing that it needs to be completely successful as of yet, but with Listnook pulling this c*** and FB continuing to push their agenda, I feel that this will change soon. Anyone for a Gundeals MeWe page??

16

jdragon3 Mar 22, 2018 +35

>We don’t take banning subs lightly. Each sub is reviewed by a human—and in some cases, a team of humans—before it is banned for a content policy violation. In cases where a sub’s sole purpose is in direct violation of our policies (i.e. sharing of involuntary p***), we will ban a sub outright. But ***generally before banning, we attempt to work with the mods to clarify our expectations and policies regarding what content is welcome.*** [-Spez two f****** weeks ago](https://www.listnook.com/r/announcements/comments/827zqc/in_response_to_recent_reports_about_the_integrity/dv8da62/). Now you ban subs that have done absolutely nothing wrong (morally or legally) with no warning and no discussion. What a bunch of lying cowards. In case it wasnt already clear u/spez is a bold faced liar.

35

AM_Industiries Mar 21, 2018 +389

So this kills r/cigars, r/gundeals, r/scotchswap, r/cigarmarket, all things I come here to check out, among countless other communities. This is hands down the dumbest move I have seen in a long time, and I was here for the Ellen Pao and Victoria c***. You say you value community and bringing each other together, but this clearly shows that the opposite is true. I guess since it has been also stated that the transactions need not exchange money, the annual Listnook Secret Santa is also dead. What an incredibly poor move.

389

[deleted] Mar 21, 2018 +499

[deleted]

499

[deleted] Mar 22, 2018 +39

[deleted]

39

[deleted] Mar 21, 2018 +2642

I ran one of the subs you just removed. While I completely understand your reasons for updating your policy, would it have been unreasonable to ask for a little notice? these subs have thousands of active members who've just been displaced with no notice whatsoever, and left with no means of migrating elsewhere. shame on you.

2642

koelstorybro Mar 21, 2018 +1198

I was going to give you gold for this comment, but then I remembered that's just a donation to these authoritarians who just fucked over substantial communities

1198

johnboyauto Mar 21, 2018 +276

[This is absolute horseshit.](https://www.listnook.com/r/announcements/comments/827zqc/in_response_to_recent_reports_about_the_integrity/dv824bf/)

276

charles15 Mar 21, 2018 +473

>Banning them probably won't accomplish what you want. *\- /*[*u/spez*](/user/spez) **Except for when it's convenient for them and their shareholders.**

473

[deleted] Mar 22, 2018 +50

This is totally gonna backfire in listnook's face man. I am not a big supporter of guns myself. Think a lot of people are constantly underestimating how dangerous they actually Are. However this is basically censorship to remove sites about gunsales. We are all doing the worst possible thing when it comes to subjects like nazism, racism, and gun control. Silencing an alternative opinion, even one that is objectively wrong, only encourages those negative opinions and actually justifies their beliefs. It is making those negative opinions both stronger and more desperate. The internet is a hodgepodge of negative and positive, of people creating and exploiting. This is NOT the way to deal with the negative aspects of the web. Never has, never will. What listnook and youtube are doing will only agitate the problem and make people who are not part of criminal activity to suffer, far more than any actual criminals. And No i do not agree with the sentiment that listnook and youtube have the right. They have opened themselves up as public forums for a limitless number of topics of discussion and forms of expression. They no right to truly push out discussions that conflict with personal opinion so long as they are not part of some criminal activity.

50

crimsonryno Mar 21, 2018 +334

I have had listnook Gold for five years (longer, but I had breaks) and gilded because I loved the idea of the community and wanted to support it. No longer. Today I stop supporting a site that only cares about itself and not the sub-listnooks that comprise it. Listnook has almost hostile towards sub-listnook that don't generate traffic or make them money. I have a feeling as soon as there is a decent alternative listnook will become another Digg.

334

againinaheartbeat Mar 21, 2018 +35

Blame SESTA. It just passed through the house, the senate passed it today. It essentially removes the provision in communications law that says a website is not liable for illegal content posted by users. It was that law that protected listnook and other sites against civil and criminal prosecution if users post illegal information. It's a huge blow to digital freedom and I can't believe it didn't get the same publicity that net neutrality got. Listnook's protecting itself against this new liability. Sex workers have been saying this for MONTHS but no one listened because how could we know what we were talking about? We're just whores. Y'all are pissed about advertisers when it's the federal government that's f****** with the internet.

35

needle14 Mar 21, 2018 +41

What blatant bullshit. Listnook allows subs dedicated to Necrophilia and incest but took down Gundeals, a sublistnook that was dedicated to saving law abiding citizens money to practice their constitutional right. Wasn’t this site supposed to allow “freedom.” Drugs? Really? So you’ll allow advertisers to advertise but you won’t allow individuals to partake. You said so yourself that Listnook isn’t a marketplace and takes no responsibility. So why don’t you stick to that mantra, stay out of the sublistnooks unless there’s a clear violation of the law (child p***, slavery, etc) and let the individual to partake in their own risk.

41

reddit_oar Mar 21, 2018 +161

If listnook is not intended to be used as a marketplace or exchange service then why does listnook have a Secret Santa gift exchange hosted by the company? It seems you are endorsing using the tools of listnook to exchange goods with other users. You can't know what is being sent so why allow only the listnook sponsored exchange but end community driven ones?

161

lcburgundy Mar 21, 2018 +286

/r/gundeals never had individual sales, merely links to legal gun sales sites. I guess I better not post a link here to a site starting with gun and ending with broker, or a site starting with gun and ending in deals (guess where a period should go?) lest I "facilitate" a gun transaction. The fact that listnook had to create a sockpuppet account to post this policy. Geez. What a sad, pathetic, cowardly bunch listnook admins are.

286

XavierVE Mar 21, 2018 +624

Banning r/gundeals is ridiculous. All it did was post links to deals from legal stores that sell firearms to FFL pickup locations. Same exact function as r/gamedeals or any other "deals" sublistnook! Linking to sales on legitimate legal websites is a bannable offense? The f***? Stupid. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid. If you don't get it -- your policy is stupid.

624

nowitsataw Mar 21, 2018 +152

For those reading: I help moderate a small sublistnook for people in interracial relationships. Every single day, people are PMed nasty death threats, insults, etc, by every sort of racist freak you can imagine. There are still sublistnooks that openly advocate for violence against interracial couples and various other ethnic groups. I have spoken with /u/spez about it repeatedly. And, repeatedly, nothing has been done. Instead, we now prohibit people from swapping beer, as if that were an issue in the first place.

152

JustAnotherChem Mar 21, 2018 +236

Noticed all the drug sublistnooks such as /r/darknetmarets, /r/dnstars & /r/darknetuk have been taken down? These sublistnooks don't facilitate any type of transaction in fact any kind of sourcing is strictly forbidden and rule breakers are banned. /r/DNSTARs is a harm reduction sub listnook so nice going guys! You're adding to the problem.

236

KettyFish Mar 22, 2018 +67

DNSTARS was a community of about 250 that raised over $3000 in 2 months for substance testing. It had a strictly enforced no sourcing rule. 38 samples were tested and results published. They were doing amazing things for harm reduction and listnook banned them.

67

dscott06 Mar 21, 2018 +69

Words cannot state my fury at this. Apparently it's not ok for adults to engage in legal activities on the internet, like arranging to meet and share a beer, or letting each other know that a particular gun is on sale somewhere? WTF. For the first time ever, I'm actually considering deleting my account. Not sure how else to send a message. Edit: Maybe we could try and break that recently set record for downvotes? Because this is every bit as much bullshit as loot boxes.

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[deleted] Mar 21, 2018 +25

Is this website for 8 year olds now? First you create a policy stating that a person can't "appear to be a minor" in sexual content where it's clearly stated/known that the person/people involved, real or fictional, are consenting adults. I never did receive an answer on whether I could, hypothetically, share n*** pictures of myself with other Listnookors since I "appear to be a minor". Now adults can't trade tobacco or alcohol, both of which are legal? Exactly what personal information are we talking about, can I send someone my own address and/or DOB? Can I tell them what city I live in? How about the custom license plate on the car I drive? What if someone reports an item as stolen, are you going to automatically punish the person who wants to sell it? What if neither of them can prove ownership? >Paid services involving physical sexual contact How exactly would you determine whether paid services involve "sexual physical contact"? There are [paid services](https://www.cuddlecomfort.com/) that do not involve sexual contact, but the people might eventually end up being intimate outside use of the service. Are you going to erroneously assume that any paid service that involves *any* physical contact is inherently sexual? These intentionally vague rules you keep publishing just so you can punish people who are involved in activities that some higher-up at Listnook personally disagrees with are BS. Everyone can see that you're intentionally avoiding greater detail, context, and fairness. Also, great job banning sublistnooks without giving them a chance to comply with these rules despite the fact that what they were doing was perfectly legal and they had less than an hour's notice. Edit: I notice that this is an intentionally vague username, "Listnook-Policy". The people responsible for this are trying to dodge responsibility, huh? Well, I probably would too, if I was pulling stupid bullshit like this.

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neuromorph Mar 21, 2018 +426

so are we banning /r/usedpanties /r/thepantydrawer /r/dirtypanties These are no more illegal than firearms, alcohol and tobacco. Personally I find them reprehensible, but they are legal. Either have the policy set for all sales in general, or illegal sales. You are selectively choosing to target various legal items that can be sold between users.

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bearsaysbueno Mar 21, 2018 +68

18 U.S. Code § 1461 - Mailing obscene or crime-inciting matter >Every obscene, lewd, lascivious, indecent, filthy or vile article, matter, thing, device, or substance; and— >Every article or thing designed, adapted, or intended for producing abortion, or for any indecent or immoral use; >... >Is declared to be nonmailable matter and shall not be conveyed in the mails or delivered from any post office or by any letter carrier. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1461

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[deleted] Mar 21, 2018 +705

>(except advertisements placed in accordance with our advertising policy) So you're putting your foot down, unless you can make money off it? I feel like I'm missing something. I get it you can't have people trading drugs and guns and stuff on your website, but if they pay you enough they can still advertise those things and post things about them?

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[deleted] Mar 21, 2018 +42

I'm going back to 4chan. People are just as shitty there, but at least they're honest about it and they can deal with people discussing alcohol and tobacco. Still haven't received clarification on why sublistnooks about marijuana were left alone while sublistnooks about legal gun sales and airsoft were banned. Go f*** yourselves. >We're signing off for now but may drop back in later To avoid answering more questions, or...? Good luck with that transparent political agenda you're pushing. Later.

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zsteezy Mar 21, 2018 +53

So wait... Listnook admins took the time to actually rewrite the policy in a way to ban sublistnooks that have existed in peace for years with next to zero complaints from the overall listnook community. Yet they can't take the time to ban a sublistnook that is in clear violation of the site-wide rules that are ALREADY IN PLACE? I wasn't quick to jump on the anti /u/spez bandwagon because I figured that there had to something I was missing. I didn't want to jump to conclusions in much the same way t_d does every day. But it's gotten to a point I just can't believe. Listnook is attacking its own peaceful, rule-abiding subs, while allowing t_d to fester.

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ChronoDeus Mar 22, 2018 +39

Banning a bunch of perfectly legal subs simply because they involve guns is ridiculous enough, but ya'll don't even know what airsoft is, do you? It's nothing more than toys. What's next, banning r/Gunpla/ and r/Gundam/ because they include the string "gun" in the name? You didn't even have the guts to make make this announcement through a real account. You cowardly put together a dummy one so you could cut and run when people started asking the hard or embarrassing questions and point out inconsistencies.

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[deleted] Mar 21, 2018 +942

[deleted]

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bigmac80 Mar 21, 2018 +85

It's /u/Spez, I'm sure. Reeks of chicken-shit. Goes after soft target communities in the hopes of being seen as having a strong hand on the wheel. So? Go on /u/Spez. Here, let me help you out: r/Sexsells/ is still open for business, but by your own admitted metric - not for long. I am sure you're going to get on that ASAP. Make sure not the warn the community first - while it's bad enough you're sending a message that you don't give a shit about the communities, there's no reason to make people think you actually know what you're f****** doing while you go about it.

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JiminyWimminy Mar 21, 2018 +126

It's not a new trend, it's just the latest step in a pattern of fuckery and censorship going back years. If you've not already moved many activities you used to do here to other sites instead I'll be surprised.

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CaptainCiph3r Mar 21, 2018 +179

Gee, thanks for ruining Listnook farther. I understand alcohol and tobacco somewhat, but guns? You have to ship them to an FFL and go through a background check to buy them online. There are no legal issues here. In situations where someone can buy them without a background check, IE same state trades in states that allow it, these people can just go on a website like Armslist and do it anyway. You're not stopping anything. You're just pissing a whole bunch of people off. And you banned GUNDEALS which Is not a private seller to seller sublistnook.

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G19Gen3 Mar 21, 2018 +41

More to the point, stuff from gun deals, as you said, forces an FFL transfer and it’s purchasing from a legitimate company. Which means a background check. Which is what anti-gunners claim to want. So they just made more people resort to gun shows with the “dangerous loopholes.” Nice job /u/spez. You just played yourself.

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The_Alaskan Mar 21, 2018 +1180

Is this because [Congress is about to pass changes to Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act of 1996](https://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2018/03/21/591622450/section-230-a-key-legal-shield-for-facebook-google-is-about-to-change)?

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fartwiffle Mar 21, 2018 +28

Per the linked article it looks like amendments to Section 230 already went through the House and the Senate is voting on the bill next Wednesday. If it passes the Senate, and it probably will because this is all being done under the guise of protecting sex workers and children it will most likely be signed by Trump. **[Link to the actual bills with information](https://www.listnook.com/r/announcements/comments/863xcj/new_addition_to_sitewide_rules_regarding_the_use/dw2dsup/)** If the the unintended consequences of this bill are getting things like /beertrades and /gundeals banned then I intend to call my Senators. Edit: Why am I just hearing about this now? I usually try to keep up on this sort of thing. I didn't even get any emails from the EFF on this. [EFF Page on Section 230](https://www.eff.org/issues/cda230).

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this_shit Mar 21, 2018 +498

Huh, seems like this policy is exactly the chilling effect feared by the civil libertarians on this one. Listnook isn't involved in or promoting beer swaps, nor is listnook profiting off the beer swap community (as is evidenced by their willingness to shut it down in anticipation of this change). That's not great.

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Badazd Mar 21, 2018 +104

I’m sure shady deals have been made on Craigslist, eBay, specific Amazon sellers, let-go etc... With this logic if I go put up a flyer on a police station advertising that I’m selling drugs and someone buys the drugs because they found the poster (even if police) then the police station facilitated the sale. Same with selling illicit stuff in a Walmart parking lot, Walmart facilitated the deal by supplying a place to make the deal.

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thecday Mar 21, 2018 +83

This is hands down one of the worst decisions your team has made. You allow hate speech to flourish, but you ban sub the revolve around not just LEGAL but CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED items. What was /r/brassSwap crime? those items are not even ammunition yet..... they are the chunks of brass only..... did you even look into what that was before banning of the sub or did you just see something that looked dangerous on the west coast and ban it? How about /r/gundeals? a sub that linked to guns for sale BY GUN DEALERS? You know the people who have to to background checks and ship to another gun dealer (no direct shipping of guns to people at home). Online gun dealers are safer than gun shows and person deals and you just banned a sub that directed people to them. Great Job. I am subscribed to a bunch of varied subs, but as you continue down the far left view or bust ideology I will be looking for a new site to get my community grove on.

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dageshi Mar 21, 2018 +661

Well r/scotchswap is dead, r/cigarmarket is dead. r/cigars presumably will now no longer be able to organise the regular trades members have been running with each other for years? Actually, genuinely the shittiest thing I have seen listnook do and that's as a user here for over 9 years.

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Badazd Mar 21, 2018 +116

Came here to say that over the last few months listnook has washed down the drain... I’m sure that if this keeps up listnook will become like Facebook and a large chunk of your users are gonna jump ship. You aren’t gonna stop people from illegally buying controlled substance, they will just find it elsewhere. Why are you trying to improve your public relations and image when you should focus on your user relations. You know, I’m glad that I never rated this app because I use to love it 5 stars but now at this point I’m gonna rate it a 1 Star.

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Ener_Ji Mar 21, 2018 +19

I'm not personally impacted and I can understand that there are probably some good* reasons for making this move and that Listnook feels they can't share those reasons right now, but I do object to them not providing *any* advance notice at all. I'm sure a lot of people (mods and frequent contributors) spent a lot of time and effort cultivating their communities, building friendships, etc. It strikes me as disrespectful and even cruel to change the rules and *immediately* ban communities that fall afoul of the new rules. Why not provide a 30/60/90 day notice? Some of those subs might choose to change their sub's purpose. Some might choose to move wholesale to a new sub with a related (and still compliant) topic. Why not give people a chance to keep their communities mostly intact while staying compliant with the new rules? ^* From Listnook's perspective from a business standpoint.

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[deleted] Mar 21, 2018 +173

[removed]

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[deleted] Mar 22, 2018 +11

This is going way too far for Listnook. Adding a disclaimer is fine. Flagging the sublistnook for potentially risky content is fine. Setting some subs to not pop up in regular searches... That's okay, because word travelling through word of mouth is okay. Forcing subs to add a disclaimer is A-OK. But banning them outright? Why not set out some guidelines that subs must follow, such as having automod mention the legal ramifications? It is not the responsibility of Listnook to act as a domineering policeman, but as a deliberator that insures that the community does not go too far. Force the legal ramifications of potentially risky activities (transporting certain substances across state lines without proper certs), ban accounts that promote breaking those laws... But do not ban the communities. Listnook exists because of its communities; you can find anything on it. Leave it that way.

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arin43 Mar 21, 2018 +107

Holy Shit you guys really opened up a can of worms doing this. All the illegal things? Completely justified, I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner. /r/gunsforsale? Ehh, yeah I guess I can understand that if you don't really know how a private sale works. (Still pretty damn stupid seeing as all laws must still be followed) But banning numerous other sublistnooks that were third party sites selling things to users? The admins of this site have gotten progressively more stupid over the years. Enjoy shooting yourself in the foot, you've not only pissed off one side of a community, but you've seem to have pissed off a majority of it. Just following the standard nowadays I suppose. We'll see if you back off it like almost everyone else does from the backlash.

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IAMASexyDragonAMA Mar 21, 2018 +14

> But banning numerous other sublistnooks that were third party sites selling things to users? The admins of this site have gotten progressively more stupid over the years. > > We can't have a sublistnook sharing links to sales on legal goods but we can have open nazi and alt-right recruiting. They refuse to shut down sublistnooks involved in plotting riots and inciting violence in the real world.

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togsu Mar 22, 2018 +26

Why are you grouping legal goods with clearly illegal goods and services?

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diablo_man Mar 22, 2018 +19

/u/Listnook-policy As one of the moderators of /r/CanadagunsEE, I have to say this is very disappointing. What was the point of shutting us down? We were not a "illegal market" or doing anything wrong. Each poster has been licensed and extensively vetted by the RCMP(national police force of canada), which includes being ran through the background check database every single day to ensure continuous eligibility. No illegal items were sold, members verified each other's license status(and each member was approved by the moderating team, it was not an open forum), and it complied with all of the quite strict laws canada has regarding firearms ownership, selling, trading, etc. The RCMP were contacted about anyone trying to do illegal activity. Restricted firearms were registered with the RCMP, and transfers of registration/transportation permits/etc were done in accordance with the Firearms Act. I would have assumed that being in compliance with the strict laws and checks in Canada would be enough to allay any concerns Listnook might have. Getting banned with zero notice was an insult.

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blazefalcon Mar 21, 2018 +240

Why is /r/gundeals banned? I understand /r/beertrade and /r/gunsforsale, but Gundeals was just for posting good deals on guns and accessories from legal sources, no inter-listnook trade whatsoever. What justification is there in banning that? Edit: Just for clarity, I understand the banning of places like /r/beertrade, despite not agreeing with said bannings.

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[deleted] Mar 21, 2018 +36

u/Listnook-Policy, I don't quite understand this Totalitarian approach to banning the "free trade and/or sales" of cigars and pipe tobacco. Has the Listnook ownership jumped on the politically correct bandwagon? There is nothing wrong with free trade. We police our own. So, is the next thing to go on the Listnook site is the First Amendment and free discussion of books and movies??? Wow! What in the hell is becoming of the USA. I'm 65 yrs of age and this really takes the cake!

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[deleted] Mar 23, 2018 +12

I heavily think that the listnook staff should have mentioned they dont do this because they want to, but because a new law forces them. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/02/fosta-would-be-disaster-online-communities https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/1865/text The new FOSTA law makes website hosters guilty of any illegal activity that could be made there, this applies down to user c*** when the host has no idea. Essentially if someone on listnook sells drugs even without listnook's knowledge, and the coppers catch these people, the law would be able to directly put Listnook as one of the criminals. Every single thing happens for a reason. Even bad things. This is no exception. Its all because of FOSTA.

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EntyAnne Mar 21, 2018 +320

/u/Listnook-Policy, /u/spez Well that was shitty of you. Where was the warning? You just shuttered entire communities, where people have built friendships and conversations, without warning. No "This will go into effect ____"? That's f****** rude

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BrianMayFan Mar 21, 2018 +46

I would argue it isnt listnooks place to prevent trades from happening between members of subs like /r/cigars or beer trading subs. I find it highly unlikely that 14 year olds are getting cigars and beers through trades on listnook. It isnt happening! I'd urge a rethink here because you are about to kill a shit tonne of subs for no good reason

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MetArtScroll Mar 21, 2018 +124

* First they banned r/jailbait, but I can live without anything that even _might_ sexualise minors * Later they banned r/fatpeoplehate, but I totally disagree with attacking people based on their appearance * Then they banned r/deepfakes, but I do not care about _fake_ NSFW * Now they are banning r/gundeals, but I am not interested in owning guns ... One day they will ban a community I invest a lot of my time in, and no one will stand up for me.

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TheAsianTroll Mar 23, 2018 +7

Wow, Listnook giving in and making feel-good rules that ban anything they don't profit from. I get it, you guys need money to keep the website going. That's fair. What isn't fair is banning any sort of buy/sell/trade that you don't get paid for. Listnook is a forum, and a pretty secure one at that, where you can meet people from all over and, if both parties agree, conduct business to, say, trade gear for a hobby, or in the case of r/cigars, sample local flavors. I'm here to plead my case, and that's you banning r/airsoftmarket. The sublistnook was dedicated to the exchanging of airsoft guns. Airsoft guns are electric or low-pressure-gas-powered replicas of real firearms. They're used in airsoft and MilSim, as a sport where teamwork and coordination are required to be great, and even a sport SWAT and military use for training and recreation. The sub was banned because the admins clearly believe it's for selling firearms. Well, airsoft guns are not firearms. By law, they're actually considered replicas, not firearms. That's why anyone with a couple hundred bucks and a state ID can go out and buy one or order one online without needing any sort of license or tax stamp for high capacity mags, barrel lengths, etc. Since airsoft guns don't fall under firearm laws, why should a sub dedicated to airsoft guns also fall under a rule regarding firearms? Also, the aforementioned security aspect I mentioned is why people use this site for it. By banning a sub for exchanging gear related to a sport, you're essentially driving traffic away from this website, as other forums will have to accommodate potential users. I highly doubt the admins will even see this, but I'm pleading my case: Airsoft guns don't fall under firearm laws, so why should the new rule apply to them?

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[deleted] Mar 21, 2018 +215

[deleted]

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[deleted] Mar 21, 2018 +426

[deleted]

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puf_puf_paarthurnax Mar 21, 2018 +342

You know what? F*** you guys. This is ridiculous, you ban /r/GunDeals because of what? Links to outside retailers? Nobody there is using listnook as an avenue to sell forearms through listnook. Because you don’t like guns? F****** pathetic listnook. So much for free speech.

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blank_mind Mar 21, 2018 +94

I never visited any of the banned sublistnooks, but I want to say: It's really shitty of listnook to announce the new rules and enforce them immediately, giving no opportunity for the banned sublistnooks which could have made minor alterations to stay.

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qhp Mar 21, 2018 +104

For those looking for replacements for constitutionally protected gun sales *(RIP /r/gunsforsale and /r/gundeals, which wasn't even a marketplace)*, consider checking out: * [TacSwap](https://tacswap.com) * [AR15 Equipment Exchange](https://www.ar15.com/forums/equipment-exchange/) * [AKFiles Marketplace](http://www.akfiles.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=5) Reply if you know of others, please, and I'll add them to the list. EDIT: Desperately looking for an alternative to /r/gundeals (like [gun.deals](https://gun.deals)) if you guys know of other aggregate site for discounts. Very disappointed.

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NeoThermic Mar 21, 2018 +139

How are you determining the legal status of a substance to say if it's a controlled substance or not? If I want to sell my friend some weed over listnook and we're both in a state where that's legal, is that still allowed? What if we're both living in The Netherlands? How are you able to determine this or are you going to pick a given jurisdiction and stick with it? If so, which one are you picking?

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spez_ruined_reddit Mar 21, 2018 +343

Does this include Listnook selling users' data? How about astroturfing campaigns by companies? Will this prohibit subs being sold out to "Media Matters"? Legitimate questions.

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[deleted] Mar 21, 2018 +586

While you’re here, why all of a sudden am I getting all these random suggested or promoted posts on listnook? What transactions did you guys partake in to cause this to start happening?

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Jovet_Hunter Mar 21, 2018 +133

Yes! I don’t care what my g-damned chocolate or coffee preference tells me about what wine I like STOP SHOWING ME TGE DAMN ADVERTISEMENTS. I’m starting to hate those chicks.

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[deleted] Mar 23, 2018 +8

>We know this represents a change... Not really, it's just more of the same continued backslide from your previous statement that Listnook was literally "A bastion of free speech on the World Wide Web" (direct quote) into advertiser-friendly censorship a la YouTube/Facebook, who you also seem to be aping with the upcoming redesign. But you're now banning sublistnooks, without giving them a warning, who didn't even fall under your new policy. /r/gundeals wasn't a marketplace any more than /r/GameDeals is. And I bet the Listnook Secret Santa will keep going, despite being used for gifts involving firearms... I guess I've finally had enough of Listnook. I don't agree with the politics of the majority of Voat, but hey, it's worth a try, and it might be better than here. If enough people emigrate from here to there, maybe eventually the scale will tip and things will become more balanced. And if I end up not liking Voat... then at least I got some free time back, so there's a plus. In any event, I guess this marks the point at which Listnook has reached Digg levels for me. See ya, wouldn't want to be ya.

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_PM_ME_YOUR_ELBOWS Mar 22, 2018 +11

I think a lot of anguish from Listnook right now is being caused right now because you haven't adequately explained *why* you're adding these rules. It seems, at least to me, that you've A. Imposed these rules suddenly and swiftly, banning subs without thinking twice. Have you considered giving subs to be removed at least a day to discuss what is to become of themselves? B. Have not adequately explained your reasoning for adding these rules. Why did you choose now in particular to add these rules? Is this a legal thing or a company image thing?

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[deleted] Mar 21, 2018 +147

[deleted]

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Fnhatic Mar 21, 2018 +206

Wow, you guys are huge pieces of shit. /r/gundeals only linked to websites. It had strict rules on self-promotion. **Literally everything involved was 100% legal.** /r/trees magically isn't banned even though that shit is illegal federally and in the vast majority of states? OH NO MUH GUNS MUH LIBERAL VALUES **EDIT:** For those who have *ever* thought gun control was just about safety, [here is what anti-gun extremists think about this rule change.](https://www.listnook.com/r/GunsAreCool/comments/864ksy/new_listnookcom_policy_announcement_on_the_sale_of/) Even totally legal gun sales, they want stopped, because 'guns are evil'. **EDIT:** Jesus christ don't buy me gold that's just giving these cunts money.

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[deleted] Mar 21, 2018 +29

/u/spez so what's the deal there, hm? I'd also like to add that you apparently banned a sublistnook about airsoft guns, which are completely legal. I'm sure you'll conveniently not see any of the comments in this thread challenging the personal agendas of whoever it is you're pandering to, but whatever.

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ekpg Mar 21, 2018 +70

/u/Listnook-policy Why was https://www.listnook.com/r/gundealsfu banned? It was just reviews of dealers posted on /r/gundeals? Literally, no links were posted there. No guns were sold there. Just reviews. Did you even read the subs before you banned them?

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shmuffbub707 Mar 22, 2018 +12

Coming up on eight years as a user. This website allowed CHILD P*** for YEARS. r/jailbait was an incredibly popular sublistnook for a long time when I first started using this website. The amount of horrifying bullshit that Listnook admins allowed, and still allow, is unbelievable. T_D mongers hate every single day, but that's no problem, is it Listnook admins, because "muh freedom of speech hurrdurr." I get that as you grow you have to recenter yourself to appeal to more and more users, but ostracizing and demonizing so many of your current users, all of whom were committed to acting fairly and within the bounds of the law, is surely an unwise decision. I don't really use any other website on the internet besides YouTube, so I can't see myself quitting, but rest assured I will be joining the ranks of people who never contribute to Listnook Gold again. This is full on, paid-for-by-the-vocal-minority BULLSHIT. F*** yourselves, Listnook admins. Then educate yourselves, and make the right decisions to allow entirely legal sublistnooks to continue existing. EDIT: jk lol i just found voat. Can't stop legal behavior if it's not on your site! Also PS: f*** your slimy f****** self, /u/spez.

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supracyde Mar 21, 2018 +192

Why is /r/deals not banned? There is currently a listing for CBD oil on it's front page here: https://www.listnook.com/r/deals/comments/85lwa5/sense_hemp_family_pack_3_cbd_tinctures_for_99_for/. This is a [schedule 1 drug](https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2016/12/14/2016-29941/establishment-of-a-new-drug-code-for-marihuana-extract) in the US.

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[deleted] Mar 21, 2018 +43

Just so I got this straight, [that annoying ass wine advertisement](https://www.listnook.com/r/mildlyinfuriating/comments/85xz7m/listnook_fucking_stop/) is will still be popping up on our front pages but it's against the rules for members to discuss where wine might be sold?

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[deleted] Mar 21, 2018 +184

If r/GunDeals is gone for good, so am I. At the very least Listnook should have given these communities a heads up so that they could notify their subscribers and regroup on another website. Banning communities without warning, when no rules have been violated, just makes you guys look like the thought police.

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ecafyelims Mar 21, 2018 +185

>Personal information Does this mean that /r/secretsanta will be banned since they facilitate transactions requiring the exchange of personal information?

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Ralathar44 Mar 21, 2018 +7

As long as it's legal and ethical I see no problems with guns, alcohol, tobacco, or paid consensual sex. Listnook itself sells tons of information, as does Facebook and Twitter. So the only part I I can agree with is the stolen stuff and falsified documents and currency. In other words: honestly I really just feel like saying F*** You. It's not a nuanced comment, but neither is what you've done here. You've shown no respect, even hiding behind a random policy account because you knew how poor a decision this is. You do not deserve respect back. You have every right to change your business how you want and exclude what businesses you want. But you'll suffer the consequences for that too. MySpace wasn't too big to screw up what they had, and you are not either if you continue down this path. But hey, I hope the kickbacks you are getting are worth the price of your integrity.

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[deleted] Mar 21, 2018 +39

everyone should ensure they have an ad blocker installed which will eliminate any listnook generated advertising. stop using the listnook apps which freely allow advertising with no blocking available. hit them where it counts: the pocketbook. \#deletelistnook

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New addition to site-wide rules regarding the use of Listnook to conduct transactions

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