Between this and losing voters to the Greens and LibDems, i am starting to think Starmer may have made a mistake by moving the Party to the right
Also ngl, more than a Reform's triumph, i think we are seeing the fragmentation of British politics as the Tories and Labour collapse
More or less every alternative political force did perform pretty well today
230
Toomanyeastereggs2 days ago
+102
I think you are seeing the ongoing fragmentation of the United Kingdom.
102
d011001002 days ago
+39
At least the UK doesn't need to change their flag if the Welsh leave, right?
It gets more interesting if they need to strip out the Scottish St. Andrew's Cross or Northern Ireland's St. Patrick's Cross.
39
fatmand001 day ago
+8
**Very** optimistic of you to assume those left in the UK would accept any kind of change over as trifling a matter as *facts*.
8
bistolegs2 days ago
+14
Yep wales brings nothing to union but a requires a hand out to run.. thatchers policies and an Industrial Revolution gave us the gdp of Romania.. we’re fucked..
14
L_Cranston_Shadow18 hr ago
+1
Footballers and actors seem to be the major exports of Wales.
1
NorysStorys1 day ago
+4
A big problem a lot of the independence parties have is that their political position on things is usually quite popular in their regions but independence itself is still pretty split and a lot of Scot’s or Welsh know that without being part of Britain, the only hope they have of maintaining policies like free prescriptions, free/cheaper university education is by remaining in the union or surrendering themselves to the whims of the ultra wealthy by being tax havens. England bankrolls a lot of what the devolved governments can do which just would not be the reality if they became independent.
4
Fickle-Public197219 hr ago
+2
I always said let’s open the full accounts so we can see the full picture of funding.
2
TomboBreaker1 day ago
+23
Seems to be a common error being made across the western world where the "Left" parties are moving to the right trying to win votes and alienating the voters on the actual left and then losing.
23
TheShryke1 day ago
+10
>i am starting to think Starmer may have made a mistake by moving the Party to the right
I was following the election news and there was a quote from someone saying that this is because they have tried to be more progressive.
They thought that Labour have moved left and that's pushed people to vote Reform.
I'm amazed anyone can look at the last few years of UK politics and think that could be true. It often feels like some people are living in a different reality.
10
CMDR_omnicognate2 days ago
+24
"may have made a mistake by moving the Party to the right"
Well yeah that's kinda the understatement of the century. The main reason people vote for them in their main stronghold areas like Wales, or in the north of England, is because they were typically pro-union and pro worker's rights. they've shown very clearly this time around that they don't care about workers any more than the conservatives did, so that more blue collar pay-cheque to pay-cheque demographic aren't going to vote for them any more, made worse by the perceived notion that labour are more lenient on immigration, and those groups are scared of loosing their jobs to migrants.
24
Evening_Bell56172 days ago
+5
the dive to the right was so f****** stupid and betrays a contempt for their own politics. As a voter what else can you take away from Labour winning historic majorities and then saying 'Oh well, our deepest enemies were right about 90% of things so we are going to do a half baked version of that."? when you win big, even if in large part its to do with a split right wing vote, you should enact your damn policies and tell people that you do in fact believe in something and that that something is helping people! This shit doesn't work anymore, it worked like once in the 90s and its infected the brains of every center left party in the world from there on out that diving to the right is the only way to get votes!
5
ensalys2 days ago
+11
Considering the commons is made up from districts all sending 1 person in a first past the post system, it's pretty much guaranteed to converge towards 2 parties being central. Which parties might change, and maybe we're seeing the end of labour and the tories, but I doubt this fragmentation will last very long. Though who knows, maybe they will somehow avoid falling back into the trap of FPTP. Either way, more parties having a major role would probably be a good thing.
11
Drawemazing2 days ago
+19
The uk hasn't been 2 party since 2010. The Lib dems were in the coalition, then 2015 saw the snp come to bear. 2015 also saw the rise of ukip, getting more than 10% of the vote and forced the brexit issue. In 2017 no party held a majority. 2019 was only won by the brexit party surrendering to Boris Johnson.
The last time the parliament had less than 50 seats held by non-lab/tory members was 1992.
The idea that a FPTP system will converge on two parties has a lot of assumptions baked in. There is no reason to believe it is true. Politics can remain irrational for as long as the people please.
19
mward19842 days ago
+7
Don't forget the second Coalition after the Theresa May election that left the f****** mentalists that are the Ulster Unionist Party with a hand on the wheel. For the record, those are the chancers that came up with the phrase "It's Adam & Eve, not Adam & Steve" with zero f****** irony.
7
hiddenuser123451 day ago
+3
To be entirely fair, it took two for that particular tango; the Tories could’ve went it alone with a minority government.
3
mward19841 day ago
+3
Not a chance. Theresa would have lasted a week before Boris would have put the knife in and she knew it. As it was the clock was very much ticking on her premiership now. It wouldn't have made a difference to the country in the long run, but politicians haven't been able to leave No10 with dignity Tony Blair saw the writing on the wall with the economy and immediately deployed his golden parachute.
3
crucible2 days ago
+13
This is more to do with decisions taken by Welsh Labour at a devolved level, either 6 years ago during the Covid 19 pandemic, or more recently, the reduction of speed limits on some urban roads.
13
RedundantSwine2 days ago
+17
I'd say more ongoing decisions than just pandemic ones. While the English NHS has almost completely recovered from the pandemic the Welsh one is still utterly fucked. Betsi Cadwaladr Health Board in particular is just a shambles.
Part of it is due to the health service here being so weak before the pandemic began, so just crumbled quicker, and part of it is due to the utter mismanagement since. Obviously those who have been mismanaging it have then been held to account by.....becoming First Minister.
Don't get me wrong, I see things being no different under Plaid, but Labour definitely deserved to lose.
17
crucible1 day ago
+1
I’d agree but people seem to have had it in for Drakeford and by extension Labour, since Covid, I’d say.
I’m in North Wales myself so I’m only too aware of Betsi being in the shit.
I do agree they need some time in opposition - and my local reps at Westminster and the Senedd were both pretty good.
1
Cwlcymro1 day ago
+1
It's a loud minority that hate Drakeford and his COVID policies, he was generally liked for it. Vaughan Gething and Starmer have been the biggest causes of loss of votes (you can see the drops in the polls at those times), and the general malais about the Welsh Government meant that the old tactic of "Welsh Labour is different from UK labour" stopped working
1
dafydd_1 day ago
+4
Parties that supported the 20mph limit won more than half of the seats in the Senedd.
4
crucible1 day ago
+1
Well, yes but it was something people kept complaining about, too
1
yellowcloak1 day ago
+4
Wont someone think of the poor drivers
4
crucible1 day ago
+1
I’d just like a bus service in my village in Sundays tbh
1
DisillusionedPatriot2 days ago
+3
The old guard is falling, all over. There's a massive global shift playing out, right before our eyes.
3
Harrison881 day ago
I struggle to see how Labour have gone more to the right during this Government. They've protected or expanded benefits, renters rights, employment rights, etc.
0
SCP1061 day ago
+3
there's the anti trans shit but that may as well be center in the uk these days :/
3
justinsimoni2 days ago
+136
I guess Labour wasn't....
*working.*
136
Eastern_Hornet_64322 days ago
+22
It'd be weird if Wales got independence before Scotland or Northern Ireland. But that's not going to happen; the UK might have been willing to allow indyrefs back in *the before time*, but these days, willingly giving up territory would be too scary a change for Westminster to allow. The UK has shifted into a war mentality, methinks. Perhaps even a siege mentality. And Westminster is under no obligation to give indyrefs to Scotland or Wales; only Northern Ireland. And the Republic of Ireland is clearly signalling that it's not ready to take NI back.
22
blifflesplick22 hr ago
+3
This timeline is bizarre enough that NI joining Canada is a possibility
Or France (because not-England)
They won't of course, but these days you never really know
3
WilRic1 day ago
-22
The case for Welsh independence is just silly.
Even if you are against Scottish independence, there is at least a legitimate legal basis for it. To varying degrees, Scotland is an independent jurisdiction with a different system of law. It also never gave up a claim to a kind of nationhood.
Wales was conquered and absorbed into England. Such is the history of the world. The test for independence or devolution cannot simply be that a place has a unique culture. If that were so, plenty of other areas should be allowed to splinter off from the union.
Also: Wales would fail that test since it has no culture.
-22
Eastern_Hornet_64321 day ago
+25
>Also: Wales would fail that test since it has no culture.
Now you're just bein' *nasty*.
25
Cwlcymro1 day ago
+1
I'd love to invite you to the Eisteddfod
1
Proof_Commercial84702 days ago
+47
the welsh will now build their little empire … the balkanization of the UK lol
47
mwagner13852 days ago
+7
Rise of the Celtic Union?
7
FaerieKnotz2 days ago
-8
Can you provide clarification on what you mean by this?
-8
Drawemazing2 days ago
+44
Plaid is a Welsh nationalist party that aims for Welsh independence in the long term. Similar to the Scottish National Party in Scotland that controls the Scottish parliament, although the SNP is calling for immediate independence, whereas its a longer term thing for Plaid.
But with Plaid winning, nationalist parties are the largest party in all 3 non-english kingdoms of the uk, and the sole ruling party in 2 (northern irish/ north of Ireland politics is extremely confusing and will not be elaborated on)
44
AlekRivard2 days ago
+8
> (northern irish/ north of Ireland politics is extremely confusing and will not be elaborated on)
I request elaboration
8
aurumae2 days ago
+8
Northern Ireland uses a power-sharing system, that is intended to ensure that the Northern Ireland Executive consists of ministers from both the Republican/Catholic and Unionist/Protestant communities. The maths behind how this works in practice is [complicated](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D'Hondt_method?wprov=sfti1#) but a simple model is that the largest party gets to pick a minister, and then the next largest party gets to pick the next minister, and so on. The maths ensures that the party with the most votes usually gets the most ministers but no party with significant votes is left out completely.
The head of the executive is its own complicated kettle of fish. The Good Friday Agreement established two equal leaders of the Northern Ireland Executive - the First Minister and Deputy First Minister. Despite their names the two Ministers have equal power and authority. The First Minister is nominated by the largest party in the assembly, and the Deputy First Minister is nominated by the largest party from the next largest community block (“Unionist”, “Nationalist”, or ”Other”).
This means that when Sinn Féin became the largest party in the 2022 Northern Ireland Assembly election, they got to nominate the First Minister, making Michelle O’Neill the first nationalist/republican First Minister. As the second largest party, the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) nominated Emma Little-Pengelly as Deputy First Minister. Although this changing of roles was symbolically significant, since the two ministers have equal power it did not change anything from a practical standpoint.
8
MathyChem2 days ago
+5
TLDR It's a dumpster fire
In the Northern Ireland Assembly, there are generally three axis: pro/anti Irish Reunification, pro/anti Brexit, and liberal/conservative. Sinn Fein, the largest party is pro reunification, anti Brexit, and more liberal. The SDLP \[Social Democratic Labor Party\] is the little sibling of Sinn Fein at this point. The DUP \[Democratic Unionist Party\] is conservative and anti reunification and is mixed on Brexit. The Ulster Unionist Party is the little sibling of the DUP. Alliance is trying to be as middle of the road as possible and gets run over by both sides.
The Northern Ireland Assembly has collapsed multiple times, including one time for three years from 2017-2020 and about a year and half from 2022-2023. There is also a looming risk from paramilitary organizations. Brexit did a number on the economy, which has resulted in a lot of friction within the DUP, specifically.
5
AlekRivard2 days ago
+3
Dumpster fire sounds accurate
3
Fries-Ericsson2 days ago
+13
The Northern Ireland Executive operates on a Power Sharing structure where both the largest Catholic / Irish Nationalist party and largest Protestant / Unionist Party must agree to go into power together, with the largest party nominating the First Minister and the smaller of the two the Deputy First Minister (Essentially the same role. The difference in title exists for petty reasons). Currently Sinn Fein, the Irish Republican Party is the largest party in Northern Ireland and support unification with the Republic.
Northern Ireland also sends MPs to Westminster. Sinn Fein have the largest amount with 7 but they are an absentee party so when elected they refuse to sit in London.
Unlike Wales and Scotland, Sinn Fein can’t just put forward legislation that will begin the process of Northern Ireland leaving the UK and joining the Republic. The conditions for enabling this or rather allowing the people of Northern Ireland to enable their own self determination is tied up in the conditions of the Good Friday Agreement, the result of the peace process that put an end to The Troubles, a 30+ year sectarian conflict. The power sharing agreement was also defined by the GFA.
Basically conditions need to be met where in a border poll will be carried out to determine if the majority are in favour of a United Ireland and then it gets vague sort of after that.
13
FaerieKnotz2 days ago
-10
Hasn't Wales technically been a vassal state of the British Empire for 842 years? Are you opposed to any calls for independence?
-10
Drawemazing2 days ago
+17
1) no, great Britain was formed in 1706, it was part of england before that
2) it wasn't a vassal state it was annexed in the 1500s by Henry VIII. It only became a separate entity in the 90s. Vassalage implies it was a separate entity. Wales wasn't a vassal of england/Britain any more that catalonia is a vassal of Spain, or Brittany France. Thats not to say independence movements in any of these places are wrong, but the word vassal means something. If you want to say its been a vassal for 27 years, I would accept that though.
3) I literally stated the facts. I wanted plaid to win. If you want a faster independence schedule take that up with plaid and the Welsh people, not me.
17
Proof_Commercial84702 days ago
-3
what’s the viability of a micro state? what’s the benefit? all these micro f states are like little principates of the past.
when even the UK is basically nothing in world affairs what would the welsh principate be able to do? grow potatoes and onions?
-3
crucible2 days ago
+2
Smaller nations than Wales are independent… obviously we’d need to expand the public sector, defence, transport sectors etc
Independence is going to happen tomorrow or rvrr er b this term for Plaid
2
FaerieKnotz2 days ago
-2
Thank you for the response. I believe you are overlooking the independence that Wales once had. if it had never been its own entity, why would the British Royal Family have a title of "Prince | Princess of Wales", which in all irony, no person from Wales has held in hundreds of years. The title suggests there was a colonization which took place.
-2
Adventurous-Pause7202 days ago
-5
\*1707, but otherwise true
-5
Drawemazing2 days ago
+7
Treaty of the union was 1706. It established great Britain. The acts were rubber stamps.
7
libtin2 days ago
+2
The act of union 1707 created Great Britain as confirmed by the courts on multiple occasions
2
shrimpslippers2 days ago
+25
Begging for this energy to spread to the US
25
yellowcloak1 day ago
+4
We're already balkanizing
4
[deleted]2 days ago
-3
[deleted]
-3
Internet-Dick-Joke2 days ago
+24
Plaid Cymru is a left-wing party.
Do not make the mistake of thinking that 'Welsh Nationalist' means that same thing that 'US Nationalist' or 'British Nationalist' would mean, they are actually very different.
24
BunPuncherExtreme2 days ago
+7
Thanks for the clarification. Tend to see nationalism tied to right wing groups.
7
Internet-Dick-Joke2 days ago
+7
It seems to be a trend that when the group is the political/socio-economic majority and in a position of power, Nationalist parties lean very right (i.e. BNP, UKIP, their various off-shoots), whereas when the group is a political/socio-economic minority and it is another group in power political (relatively speaking) then Nationalist parties tend to lean left (SNP, Plaid Cymru and Sinn Fein are all examples of this).
Of course, those who are tied to political/socio-economic majorities and those in power, i.e. those who are typically right-wing, do tend to be given far more of a platform and hold far more influence.
7
Kwentchio2 days ago
+5
You think Plaid Cymru are right wing?
5
ilybae20152 days ago
+5
Not to comment on this week’s results, but just pointing out the Welsh Assembly (now Senedd) was established in 1999. 100 years?
5
VTA42 days ago
+17
Historically, Labour have been the dominant force in Welsh politics for probably over 100 years. They were backed by the unions, particularly the Coal Miners Unions. With the closure of the mines now almost complete, there are no unions and no union members to back Labour candidates at the ballot box.
Labour had control of most Welsh councils and the majority of it's MP's and Senedd members.
Edit: The same was also true for Scottish Labour until the rise of the SNP.
17
Really_McNamington1 day ago
+5
Plaid was founded 100 years ago is what the dating is about.
5
FlicksBus1 day ago
+3
Well, not quite. They are also referring to the fact that Labour has dominated general and local elections in Wales since 1922.
3
Really_McNamington1 day ago
+2
“This is a moment 100 years in the making,” he said, referencing the party’s founding in 1925. “We have won because we represent hope over division, credibility over chaos, and progress over stagnation.”
2
FlicksBus1 day ago
+1
Did you only read half of the article?
\>Plaid Cymru has won the Welsh Senedd elections, ending 100 years of Labour dominance in Wales
Thus the authors are also referring to Labour's dominance of Welsh politics.
1
csappenf1 day ago
+1
What happens to the Prince of Wales when the Welsh leave? You can't very well leave man with a claim on the rulership of the nation at large. You'll either have to kill him or put him in prison. Maybe the children are young enough to spare, maybe not.
1
dafydd_1 day ago
+6
Cf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peerage_of_Ireland
There is, for example, still a Duke of Leinster, and more than 100 other titles of Irish nobility, despite the Republic of Ireland not recognising any of them.
67 Comments