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News & Current Events Apr 6, 2026 at 11:12 AM

Release from ICE detention brings relief and lingering trauma for wife of Army reservist

Posted by NobodyXNo


Release from ICE detention brings relief and lingering trauma for wife of Army reservist
NBC News
Release from ICE detention brings relief and lingering trauma for wife of Army reservist
After months of anxiety in a Houston detention center, Stephanie Kenny-Velasquez was reunited with her husband last week, but she still feels guilt for those left in detention.

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myislanduniverse 4 days ago +664
A different wife!? For a second I thought they had released this woman already: https://www.nytimes.com/2026/04/05/us/ice-detains-military-wife-soldier-deployment.html?unlocked_article_code=1.YlA.bLhr.wAMjvb_wqE3e&smid=nytcore-ios-share Why would anybody give their life for this country right now? The President is actively hostile to the military and has said it multiple times. He thinks military service members are idiots.
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blewnote1 4 days ago +162
Came here to say the same thing, having just read the story you posted in our local New Orleans paper. Leaving aside the fact that marrying a soldier shouldn't somehow be more special than marrying a citizen (like it shouldn't magically make you more eligible for citizenship), it's just utterly depressing that Republicans hate Brown skinned people so much that we haven't been able to find a rational solution to the immigration problems we have created for ourselves. Sure, the woman in this story you linked was here illegally, but she was brought here as a baby, something she had no control over, and has lived here her entire life and is poised to become a good and productive member of society. How does it make any sense to send her back to a country she has no real ties to and destroy her marriage and life here?
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Khaldara 4 days ago +50
Even if you’re white Conservative imbeciles have a Fox News host in charge firing senior ranking military staff who have achieved more in service to the country in their lives than Hegseth could do in ten lifetimes. Just absolute morons and garbage humans electing absolute garbage. I can’t imagine that’s really going to drive in quality recruiting
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SheComesThenSheGoes 4 days ago +3
they just need more bodies to sacrifice. I don't think they care about quality (this is not against the military but the current administration)
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TheOriginalKrampus 4 days ago +7
Americans gain nothing from her deportation. Same with the vast majority of people deported. Even before Trump. We are a country of immigrants. We have the space. Immigrants are less likely to commit crimes than natural born citizens. It’s disruptive to the economy to deport people employed in American businesses. And it’s extremely disruptive to communities to just extract people for no other reason than immigration status.
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SheComesThenSheGoes 4 days ago +4
Also, how much is this whole hunting expedition and the deportation process even costing us versus how much we pay for "illegals". Im willing to bet this is costing us way more than letting them stay is.
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TheOriginalKrampus 4 days ago +2
Most definitely. Even though apparently Trump has not been paying all these new ICE agents.
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buythedipnow 4 days ago +50
Because student loans can’t be discharged in bankruptcy and healthcare is tied to employment. There aren’t better options for survival. People aren’t really joining out of a sense of patriotism these days.
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Old-n-Wrinkly 4 days ago +13
Other than during major wars (WWI and WWII) would bet “patriotism” is less of a joining factor than practicality. It’s theoretically access to a better future for a lot people with less options.
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hirudoredo 4 days ago +7
idk, 9/11 had a lot of my classmates in an enlistment fury. Even heard shit like "I'll do it for free." I thought they were insane (and very gullible.) Can't speak to other times, though.
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redditer129 4 days ago +5
Modernized slavery.
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winky9827 4 days ago +19
But wait, there's more! > But her pending asylum case does not grant her legal status in the U.S, the statement continued, noting that she was released into the country under the Biden, not Trump, administration. Since when does a court order become invalid because of a change in presidency? What the f*** are these morons on about? > “Being in detention is a choice. We encourage all illegal aliens to take control of their departure with the CBP Home App," the statement read in part. Words cannot adequately describe the vile filth here...
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Silidistani 4 days ago +2
> What the f*** are these morons on about? They're implementing literal fascism at the behest of the Project 2025 traitors and literal Nazis like Stephen Miller, Tom Homan and others. [It's here, it's now.](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/2026/01/america-fascism-trump-maga-ice/685751/?gift=notf04mdNUD9kemEbD__yLtiAfETJYvIFmaCWnsZXkE&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share) Our democracy and Republic hang by a thread at this point.
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mattattack007 4 days ago +15
I mean if you watch your father and his father bow down and kneel in front of the cult of the GOP it's hard to tell yourself you belong anywhere but on your knees as well. The people that see all this shit and decide killing children in Iran is serving their country know nothing else but blind obedience to their betters. If a conservative politician tells them to jump, they jump, no questions asked.
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Silidistani 4 days ago +2
Some people are raised to somehow love to [subjugate themselves to authoritarianism.](https://theauthoritarians.org/)
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chaveto 4 days ago +20
Sweet, sweet GI bill benefits. Go look up the term “Guard bum”. Some of these people literally don’t have the skills or drive to provide for themselves any other way. That applies for way more armed services and LEO postings than you’d think. Source: Grew up in a vet/LEO family.
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Seandrunkpolarbear 4 days ago +10
that's one part of the many reasons we have large government  programs like military. It provides an employment floor that is immune to recessions etc  
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Gecko99 4 days ago +2
During the Great Depression the US had the [Civilian Conservation Corps](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Conservation_Corps). Why can't we do something like that now?
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Seandrunkpolarbear 3 days ago +1
if AI worst case scenarios are true for employment, we will need to
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Gecko99 3 days ago +2
I think we should have started it back up during the 2008 recession or maybe even a little before. It's not like it's mutually exclusive with the military anyway. Veterans entered the CCC, and the CCC also provided people who would later serve in World War II.
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Zarkanthrex 4 days ago +2
Don't really have a choice if your Unit gets the call. Lot's of people are locked into multi year contracts. My first was 4. 2nd was 2 (thankfully) and 3rd was for 3. Now I just do it in yearly extensions just in case of c*** like this.
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SheComesThenSheGoes 4 days ago +1
why do you extend your contract? just genuinely curious.
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Zarkanthrex 4 days ago +2
Tricare benefits are better than most civilian healthcare. It's way more affordable and if I end up in a serious accident, or some other calamitous event, i'm mostly covered. Tricare isn't going to let government property they spent thousands on to just be denied a knee surgery, or some other thing. The life insurance policies are pretty nice too. I also get to maintain my TS clearance until I finish my degree and then can go work for a way better institution. With a healthily maintained TS while not letting my skills dry up.
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l_____I 4 days ago +1
You still get military benefits for being in the army which is enough for most people
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daveinthegutter 4 days ago +136
Just a reminder these stories ARE NOT NORMAL
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nightninja13 4 days ago +27
No they are not normal they are unacceptable for a “law enforcement” agency.
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nalex66 4 days ago +11
…but they are increasingly (and depressingly) common. You guys won’t have a country if you don’t reclaim it soon.
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defianceofone 4 days ago -1
Good thing Americans are doing something about it- wait. Just more and more innocent people being arrested each day but sports and TikTok are still on, so whatever. Rotten society.
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[deleted] 4 days ago -10
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steve_ample 4 days ago +219
Launch a civil case against them. Cut open a pathway for those similarly treated unjustly.
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solarguy2003 4 days ago +36
Impeach the guy already, or slam him with the 25th amendment, that's probably faster. The guy is obviously imbalanced and impaired. He is corrupt right to the core. His foreign "policy" is a train wreck. His immigration policy and ICE enforcers/goons are flagrantly violating our constitutional rights. His economic policies are wrecking the country (and the world, and the energy infrastructure). Food isn’t getting cheaper. Housing isn’t getting any cheaper. Health care is absolutely not getting any cheaper. He has the negotiating skills of an angry 10 year old. And I’m pretty sure he is a statutory rapist and a pedophile. Tomorrow. Do it tomorrow!
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VariationDry 4 days ago +5
The problem is that he is not acting alone. The American leadership is rotten to the core.
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Silidistani 4 days ago +1
> probably faster Italian plumbers are even faster.
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Any_Juggernaut_9799 4 days ago +1
ya can't fix it if the tools are broken. sometimes you just gotta use a hammer.
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ClintBruno 4 days ago +32
Trump's record on military and vets • Only 1 Trump in America has served in the military (Fred Trump, Don's brother, served in the Air National Guard); this spans 5 generations, and every branch of the family tree. In fact, the reason his grandfather immigrated to America was to avoid military service. • Children of deployed US troops will no longer get automatic American citizenship if born overseas during deployment. This includes US troops posted abroad for years at a time (August 28, 2019) • On August 2, 2019, Trump requisitioned military retirement funds towards border wall • On July 31, 2019, Trump ordered the Navy rescind medals to prosecutors who were prosecuting war criminals • In July 2019, Trump denied a United States Marine of 6 years entry into the United States for his scheduled citizenship interview (Reported July 17, 2019) • Trump made the U.S. Navy Blue Angels violate ethics rules by having them fly at his July 4th political campaign (July 4, 2019) • Trump demanded US military chiefs stand next to him at 4th of July parade (reported July 2, 2019) • In June, 2019, Trump sent troops to the border to paint the fence for a better "aesthetic appearance" (June 7, 2019) • Trump used his D-Day interview at a cemetery commemorating fallen US soldiers to attack a Vietnam veteran (June 6, 2019) • Trump started his D-Day commemoration speech by attacking a private citizen (Bette Midler, of all people) (reported on June 4th, 2019) • Trump made his 2nd wife, Marla Maples, sign a prenup that would have cut off all child support if Tiffany joined the military (reported on June 4th, 2019) • On May 27, 2019, Trump turned away US military from his Memorial Day speech because they were from the destroyer USS John S. McCain • Trump ordered the USS John McCain out of sight during his visit to Japan (May 15, 2019). The ship's name was subsequently covered. (May 27, 2019) • Trump pardoned war criminals (May, 2019) • Trump purged 200,000 veterans healthcare applications (due to known administrative errors within VA’s enrollment process and enrollment system) (reported on May 13, 2019) • Trump deported a spouse of fallen Army soldier killed in Afghanistan, leaving their daughter parentless (April 16, 2019) • On March 20, 2019, Trump complained that a deceased war hero didn't thank him for his funeral • He refused to sign his party's funding bill, which shut down the government, and forced a branch of the military to go without pay. This branch of military was forced to work without pay, otherwise they would be AWOL. However, his appointees got a $10,000 pay raise (Dec 22, 2018 – Jan 25, 2019) • He didn't pay the Coast Guard, forcing service members to rely on food pantries (Jan 23, 2019) • He banned service members from serving based on gender identity (Jan 22, 2019) • He denied female troops access to birth control to limit sexual activity (on-going. Published Jan 18, 2019) • He tried to deport a marine vet who is a U.S.-born citizen (Jan 16, 2019) • When a man was caught swindling veterans pensions for high-interest “cash advances," Trump's Consumer Financial Protection Bureau fined him $1. As a reminder, the Trump administration's goal was to dismantle the CFPB, installing Mick Mulvaney as the director, who publicly stated the bureau should be disbanded. (Jan 26, 2019) • He called a retired general a 'dog' with a 'big, dumb mouth' (Jan 1, 2019) • He increased privatization of the VA, leading to longer waits and higher taxpayer cost (2018) • He finally visited troops 2 years after taking office, but only after 154 vacation days at his properties (Dec 26, 2018) • He revealed a covert Seal Team 5 deployment, including names and faces, on Twitter during his visit to Iraq (Dec 26, 2018) • Trump lied to deployed troops that he gave them a 10% raise. He didn't give them a 10% raise (Dec 26, 2018). He initially tried to give the military a raise that was lower than the standard living adjustment. This was before Congress told him that idea wasn't going to work. Then after giving them the raise that Congress made him, he lied about it pretending that it was larger than Obama's. It wasn't. • He fired service members living with HIV just before the 2018 holidays (Dec 19, 2018-present) • He tried to slash disability and unemployment benefits for Veterans to $0, and eliminate the unemployability extrascheduler rating (Dec 17, 2018) • He got three Mar-a-Lago guests to run the VA (unknown start - present, made well-known in 2018) • He called troops on Thanksgiving and told them he's most thankful for himself (Thanksgiving, 2018) • He urged Florida to not count deployed military votes (Nov 12, 2018) • While in Europe commemorating the end of WWI, he didn't attend the ceremony at a US cemetery due to the rain - but other world leaders went anyway (Nov 10, 2018) • He used troops as a political prop by sending them on a phantom mission to the border and made them miss Thanksgiving with their families (Oct-Dec, 2018) • He stopped using troops as a political prop immediately after the election. However, the troops remained in muddy camps on the border (Nov 7, 2018) • Trump changed the GI Bill through his Forever GI Act, causing the VA to miss veteran benefits, including housing allowances. This caused many veterans to run out of food and rent. “You can count on us to serve, but we can’t count on the VA to make a deadline,” one veteran said. (reported October 7, 2018) • Trump doubled the rejection rate for veterans requesting family deportation protections (July 5, 2018) • Trump deported active-duty spouses (11,800 military families face this problem as of April 2018) • He forgot a fallen soldier's name (below) during a call to his pregnant widow, then attacked her the next day (Oct 23-24, 2017) • He sent commandos into an ambush due to a lack of intel, and sends contractors to pick them up, resulting in a commando being left behind, tortured, and executed. (Trump approved the mission because Bannon told him Obama didn't have the guts to do it) (Oct 4, 2017) • He blocked a veteran group on Twitter (June 2017) • He ordered the discharge of active-duty immigrant troops with good records (2017-present) • He deported veterans (2017-present) • He said he knows more about ISIS than American generals (Oct 2016) • He said vets get PTSD because they aren't strong (Oct 3, 2016) (note: yes, he said it's 'because they aren't strong.' He didn't say it's 'because they're weak.' This distinction is important because of Snopes) • Trump accepted a Purple Heart from a fan at one of his rallies and said: “I always wanted to get the Purple Heart. This was much easier.” (Aug 2, 2016) • Trump attacks Gold Star families - Myeshia Johnson--gold star widow, Khan family--gold star parents, etc. (2016-present) • Trump sent funds raised from a January 2016 veterans benefit to the Donald J Trump Foundation instead of veterans charities (the foundation has since been ordered shut because of fraud) (Jan, 2016) • Trump said "I felt that I was in the military in the true sense because I dealt with those people" because he went to a military-style academy and that he has "more training militarily than a lot of the guys that go into the military". (2015 biography) • For a decade, Trump sought to kick veterans off of Fifth Avenue because he found them unsightly nuisances outside of Trump Tower. “While disabled veterans should be given every opportunity to earn a living, is it fair to do so to the detriment of the city as a whole or its tax paying citizens and businesses?” - 1991 • Trump dodged the draft 5 times by having a doctor diagnose him with bone spurs.
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Sturmundsterne 3 days ago +1
What I wouldn’t give for a carriage return or ten in that giant wall of text.
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alti_etiam 4 days ago +7
The irony of seeing US army recruitment ads targeting immigrants. Come fight for us and risk your life while we arrest your family.
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Dowew 4 days ago +2
Ice sent agent to marine graduation to arrest the grads undocumented family members
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Clumsypuma1 4 days ago +172
61% of the military voted for Trump. This is a lions ate my face moment. Don’t feel bad for them at all.
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Neither_Relative_252 4 days ago +55
Same way my cousin voted for Bush and went to Iraq 3 times. I always hear military is largely republican. Brainwashed. He voted for Bush a second time but after his third tour in iraq he was over Bush finally said "that guy doesn't care". Finally he understood Bush was sending him to die it was a lions ate my face moment.
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Lopsided_Tiger_0296 4 days ago +18
Did he vote for Trump?
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Murray38 4 days ago +32
You know he did.
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Neither_Relative_252 4 days ago +15
I don't know. I'm sadly estranged from alot of family .. trumpsters.. sadly but not sad.. if that makes sense. My mother voted for Trump three times, this is her nephew also little fact my mother, is another illiterate high school graduate. After her third vote we are now estranged.
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Lopsided_Tiger_0296 4 days ago +2
Their loss, your gain!
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TotalHeat 4 days ago +6
Who's to say he's not part of the 39% lol, weirdly presumptuous
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myislanduniverse 4 days ago +43
Well that's how the whole rest of the world feels about us both, being Americans and all. Nobody is a flat character. Stop hating whole groups of people for things that other people loosely affiliated with them have done. It's intellectually and morally lazy.
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purritowraptor 4 days ago +9
You can't choose where you're born.  You *can* choose to enlist. You *can* choose how you vote. I hope that helps!
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Blacksheep81 4 days ago +6
Thanks for the help! Yes you can choose those, you typically cannot choose singlehandedly who becomes president after joining. This is how having a job, usually requiring income, and voting, usually requiring many people to participate of their own free will, both work.
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purritowraptor 4 days ago -4
Am I having a stroke or is your second sentence difficult to understand? Anyway, there's a massive difference between hating *millions of people* because of where they're from, versus running out of sympathy for a very specific *and voluntary* demographic that either voted for terrible things or complies with them anyway.
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Blacksheep81 4 days ago +4
I reworded it to make more sense. My point in my other comment was that acting condescending did nothing to prove your point. Who is it you are accusing of hating millions of people because of where they are from? The military?
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purritowraptor 4 days ago +1
You're not even the person I replied to originally. Read from that comment and it'll make sense. 
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Blacksheep81 4 days ago +4
Well no I know that, but my point is the same to both comments. People keep saying the military is pro Trump and therefore deserves everything coming to them. And sure, a majority voted for Trump, but so did a majority of Americans. It feels disingenuous to lump all military together when they are just a slice of the American public; and the fact many can be required to be in service far longer than a single presidential term is also a factor.
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Clumsypuma1 4 days ago +37
There is a difference between hating a group, and refusing to give empathy to a group whose majority asked for specifically this. You can keep your moral superiority to yourself, I will not stay to the side and say we should give grace to those that cheers the downfall of a country that I fought for.
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[deleted] 4 days ago +36
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WetSpine 4 days ago +4
They didn't join after trump became elected you know.
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[deleted] 4 days ago -4
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WetSpine 4 days ago +6
They're still under contract. Contracts are from 3,4 and 6 year contracts. I agree that this war is pointless but many don't have an option to leave. They risk jail time and their families, future employment. Easy for you to say that when your freedom isn't on the line.
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[deleted] 4 days ago -2
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ClubHauntedHouseVIP 4 days ago +3
You’re the one that doesn’t seem to understand things. It’s very easy to say jail is better than serving out your contract while you sit behind a keyboard. What about their families? Do you think they will be happy their parent went to jail and isn’t there for them? Not everything is black and white.
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[deleted] 4 days ago +1
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myislanduniverse 4 days ago +43
Chris Busby and his wife Stephanie aren't a political group. They're just other f****** human beings and you have no idea how they voted.
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Blacksheep81 4 days ago +37
Americans voted for trump. YOU did this. You can now live with your decision. If you don't like being lumped in with groups of people who are experiencing consequences you didn't vote for, don't lump others into groups together either.
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ClubHauntedHouseVIP 4 days ago +9
Unless you know specifically who these people voted for, quit acting like an a******. Actually, you can keep doing that as long as you’re fine with people talking shit to you for having Trump as president. You can’t be saying “I didn’t vote for him” since he won the popular vote, right?
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[deleted] 4 days ago -1
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BoleroMuyPicante 4 days ago +2
Pretty easy to talk shit when it isn't your freedom on the line.
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Sammsim 4 days ago
Every time an American breathes the freedom of those outside of it's borders is on the line. It's extremely difficult to talk shit when it is "your freedom" on the line. Which is why people who try to do things against it, usually get labeled as either terrorists or sponsors of terrorism. Regardless of their actual intentions, circumstances or conditions. So yeah. It is pretty easy to talk shit when it isn't your freedom on the line. You people do it constantly. And when you ask "hey why did those children have to die? " The chants of USA! USA! only get louder.
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AlpenroseMilk 4 days ago +3
You fought for? Bruh don't pretend past US military actions were justified or moral. Its been endless imperialism and war crimes since Vietnam. Stop deluding yourself.
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Blacksheep81 4 days ago -3
No, it hasn't. It's not perfect, but the fact is that the US military directly provided relief to Haiti, Japan, Indonesia, the Philippines, as well as helping to preserve the safety of Taiwan and the Philippines, and dismantled ISIS and Al Qaeda for the better part of 20 years after they attacked others including the US. You are ignoring all of that only because it is conducive to the point you want to make.
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[deleted] 4 days ago +2
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Blacksheep81 4 days ago +3
You're legitimizing the Yakuza in order to liken them to the US, after their one-time aid to their own homeland after it was hit by earthquakes? The US created Al Qaeda? I think you need to read a history book. The US did arm and equip the Taliban, a different group altogether, in order to fight the Russians in Afghanistan. Following your own logic (assuming you live in any NATO country), you yourself have funded ISIS by paying taxes. Good job. You're out of your mind if you think the entire US military is loyal to trump. You've seen the unending stream of firings, right? Because top generals are refusing to enact his batshit insane plans?
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[deleted] 4 days ago +2
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Blacksheep81 4 days ago +1
Remember that thing I just said about generals refusing to enact impossible plans, like bombing whole countries to oblivion? Leading to their dismissal? That is what noncompliance looks like. I think you have some sort of wet dream where the military is just going to walk into the white house and arrest him, which, does a military coup of the US sound like what you want? Is that what you're advocating for?
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AlpenroseMilk 4 days ago -4
SMs are a special breed of people that don't deserve much sympathy. You are willingly choosing to be a a part of an institution whose whole existence is killing and destruction for a state. If not a combat MOS/rate where you ARE the mudering tool. On top of it all, you choose to join or stay in with this administration. Thats a personal choice. I've said it a million times, there are many ways out of a contract in the military. You just might not get the monetary benifits afterwards. And like others have stated over half the military wanted this leader. Empathy? Sure, I can understand why and how many got to where they are, 100%. Sympathy? No, they chose this and continue to support it in many ways. Soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen can get fucked.
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loztriforce 4 days ago +5
There doesn’t seem to be any push whatsoever to do away with for-profit prisons that create incentives to jail innocent people
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Superb-Freedom7144 4 days ago +1
La libération de la détention de LA ICE apporte un soulagement et un traumatisme persistant pour la femme d'un réserviste de l'armée. La ICE traite les migrants comme des animaux en les enfermant dans des cages.
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Silidistani 4 days ago +2
> Lawyers representing the Trump administration argued that she was a flight risk despite her recent marriage and strong ties to the area. Can these lawyers be indicted and jailed for perjury, intentionally misleading a court with official filings, or other similar crimes such as fraud? There should be consequences for lying in court just to achieve Stephen Miller & Tom Homan's Nazi agenda.
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Reasonable_Ticket_84 4 days ago -25
>Rivera pointed to her pending asylum case, which dates to 2021, when she first presented herself to border agents. Like many Venezuelans, she and her brother came to the U.S. to escape economic instability and find better job prospects. FFS, economic migration is not valid for asylum and I hate we twisted it for it.
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irradiatedcitizen 4 days ago +15
Unemployment had been low in the US (so she didn’t take someone else’s job or whatever you are thinking), and this person was not a criminal and very likely paid taxes and paid money she earned to other americans and their businesses and was a net POSITIVE to america. And here you are not wanting her in America, the country literally built by immigrants just like her. Sickening. 
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ThatPianoKid 4 days ago +5
Im just tired of seeing bad things happen to good people. Like lets be real, coming here to make a better life for yourself and your family does not make you a bad person. Crossing the border does not make you a bad person. But yeah, lets lock them up in f****** cages and make them live in their own piss and shit while not letting their family know where they are or let them call anyone for help. Yeah, they deserve that.
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Reasonable_Ticket_84 3 days ago
Unemployment is artificially low. It's a number heavily manipulated to make the economy look good for wall st. The real rate which is called U6 is 10+%, this number properly includes people who are forced to work absolute shit jobs like gig jobs to not live in a cardboard box and americans who stopped looking for a job because hundreds of job postings are fake. Others evaluate unemployment further and come up with 25% unemployment depending on race. [https://www.lisep.org/tru](https://www.lisep.org/tru)
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irradiatedcitizen 3 days ago +1
Ok bot. 
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Reasonable_Ticket_84 3 days ago
Wow, I disagree with you, therefore I must be a bot. Jeez.
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irradiatedcitizen 3 days ago +1
So are you of the mind that immigrants are taking your job? Why else are you in favor of sending someone to a blacksite if they are a net positive to our society?
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Stunning_Bed23 4 days ago -9
1. I wonder who the husband voted for. 2. Was she here illegally or not?
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Zora74 4 days ago +13
She was here on an asylum claim and detained while coming out of one of her routine check-ins, which isn’t unusual under this administration. Immigrants and asylum seekers are damned if you do, damned if you don’t follow the rules. Republicans just don’t want anyone entering, under any circumstances, unless you are white with a high likelihood of being racist.
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Economy_Wall8524 4 days ago +1
Dude even the South African that came over are already leaving. They were here for less than a year or so before they were like “Nope. F*** that shit.”
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Zora74 4 days ago +1
Really? I hadn’t heard that. Do you have a citation?
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