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Announcements Dec 6, 2016 at 8:48 PM

Scores on posts are about to start going up

Posted by KeyserSosa

In the 11 years that Listnook has been around, we've accumulated [a lot of rules](https://i.redd.it/oek2mm1io01y.png) in our vote tallying as a way to mitigate cheating and brigading on posts and comments. [Here's a rough schematic of what the code looks like without revealing any trade secrets or compromising the integrity of the algorithm.](https://i.redd.it/dastklohq01y.gif) Many of these rules are still quite useful, but there are a few whose primary impact has been [to sometimes artificially deflate scores on the site](https://www.listnook.com/r/TheoryOfListnook/comments/z1sfn/one_minute_obamas_ama_karma_score_was_16000_a/). Unfortunately, determining the impact of all of these rules is difficult without doing a drastic recompute of all the vote scores historically… so we did that! Over the past few months, we have carefully recomputed historical votes on posts and comments to remove outdated, unnecessary rules. Very soon (think hours, not days), we’re going to cut the scores over to be reflective of these new and updated tallies. A side effect of this is many of our seldom-recomputed listings (e.g., pretty much anything ending in /top) are going to initially display improper sorts. Please don’t panic. Those listings are computed via regular (scheduled) jobs, and as a result those pages will gradually come to reflect the new scoring over the course of the next four to six days. We expect there to be some shifting of the top/all time queues. New items will be added in the proper place in the listing, and old items will get reshuffled as the recomputes come in. To support the larger numbers that will result from this change, we’ll be updating the score display to switch to “k” when the score is over 10,000. Hopefully, this will not require you to further edit your sublistnook CSS. **TL;DR** voting is confusing, we cleaned up some outdated rules on voting, and we’re updating the vote scores to be reflective of what they actually are. Scores are increasing by a lot. **Edit**: The scores just updated. Everyone should now see "k"s. Remember: it's going to take about a week for top listings to recompute to reflect the change. **Edit 2**: K -> k
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MrRookwood Dec 6, 2016 +4239
Will the real scores of posts still be "hidden"? That is, reloading the page gives you a score that is within a certain range of votes of the actual score instead of the actual score. For example, there's a post on the front page, and the score is 5450 upvotes, but when I go to the comments it now says the score is 5455. If I have a post that has a score of 30, I might keep refereshing the page to find it has 28, 29, 31, 32, etc. Will real scores still be shown, or will real scores be shown with a certain offset?
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KeyserSosa Dec 6, 2016 +4211
There'll still be some slight fuzzing. The intention here is to make it ever so slightly hard for cheaters to know if their attempts are working.
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davidreiss666 Dec 7, 2016 +72
> some slight fuzzing Ah.....so, you're saying you grew a beard.
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K3R3G3 Dec 6, 2016 +15734
**Please bring back the display of how many up and down votes there are on everything.** Knowing how many people agree and disagree, like or dislike, is a huge piece of information. To not have it, especially if you've posted something 'controversial', you don't know if 2 people disagree and one agrees (and 3 people saw and voted on your comment) or if 100 people agree and 101 disagree (and 201 people saw and voted on your comment), for example. That was a major disappointment - worst thing to happen imo - things were so much better with it. It's hidden information. What if we didn't know whether 1,000,000 or 100,000,000 people voted in the 2016 Presidential Election? Our Listnook content may not have as much of an effect on the world, but it's the same concept/principle. **Please.** --- EDIT: [Here's the post where they announced the removal, downvoted to 0. Very unpopular decision. Look at the parent comments, how everyone reacted to the change. They kept it anyway.](https://www.listnook.com/r/announcements/comments/28hjga/listnook_changes_individual_updown_vote_counts_no/?sort=top)
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AcceptablePariahdom Dec 7, 2016 +489
I'm a weird (read: possibly a***) person who likes going over their own old posts, to see what people seemed to like, what they disliked, whether it seemed I was funny, informative, agreeable, etc. The loss of the up/down vote ratio seriously damaged my ability to parse that kind of information. Unless I reach controversial, for all I know 100% of people who voted on my comment either upvoted it or downvoted it. I have absolutely no way of knowing if there's an in between. Not only is it not useful information... but it kinda sucks if you have a comment in the negatives. For all you know literally everyone that read your comment disagrees with you. This was a bad change and didn't stop downvote brigades *at all*. It was only for whiners who complained that they had to see their "negative" internet points. Boo freakin' hoo. If you say something stupid your score's still gonna be negative anyway. I say bring on the downvotes and bring back the damn downvote counter.
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[deleted] Dec 7, 2016 +163
> Boo freakin' hoo. If you say something stupid your score's still gonna be negative anyway Plenty of intelligent, on-topic, contributing comments get negative scores. Listnookors voting on comments can be assholes at times or too thick to grasp the author's tone of voice, jokes, sarcasm, or lesser known memes. Not to mention, I cannot count the number of times I've seen earnest questions getting heavily downvoted for no good reason. On-topic questions contribute to the thread. I don't know why I keep seeing assholes downvoting those questions.
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[deleted] Dec 7, 2016 +103
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[deleted] Dec 7, 2016 +40
I'll admit it. Seeing a comment on the internet in general (not just listnook) with a negative score will make me more likely to dislike it and/or downvote. I'm pretty sure shit like this, to an extent, is hard coded into our brains.
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Hourglass-Dolphin Dec 8, 2016 +20
I purposely upvote things whenever I see them get downvoted, even if I don't agree with them, because I want to be kind, and I hate seeing negative numbers on polite comments. (Not trying to sound self-righteous, I was just surprised that so many people do the opposite out of habit.)
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[deleted] Dec 7, 2016 +16
I went into that doubting. I came out thinking, hmm, he just might have a point. Too high to comment further.
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wondawfully Dec 7, 2016 +27
Politely telling someone that they're incorrect, with sources, is often not appreciated. I don't like downvoting people who've made an honest mistake and I think it's important to let people know why I disagree with them. I thought we were here to learn and have fun :(
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SuedeVeil Dec 7, 2016 +183
Good point! I like to know if a post I had that is -5, if all 5 people downvoted and that's it.. or if 21 people downvoted it and 16 people upvoted.. At least at that point I know that some people (if not the majority) agreed with my post and I am happier knowing that it wasnt a complete fail
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Alame Dec 7, 2016 +112
Plus it's a better tool to monitor/observe brigading. A post 5 minutes old going from 100 uv & 50 dv -> 200 uv 200 dv in the subsequent 5 minutes isn't very indicative of brigading - activity levels are about the same. That same pose going from 100 uv& 50 dv -> 300 uv & 400 dv in 5 minutes? Well you've suddenly seen a surge of activity & a stark change in the positive/negative response. It's not conclusive brigading, but it's a damn sight better than the bullshit guessing that gets done right now.
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LsDmT Dec 7, 2016 +33
> This was a bad change and didn't stop downvote brigades at all. It was only for whiners who complained that they had to see their "negative" internet points. If this really is the reason then LOL Why not just allow the user to easily enable/disable the feature? Just like they were forced to do with thedonald filter
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[deleted] Dec 7, 2016 +275
I try to hold my tongue (even though I like to comment about everything on listnook, that's one issue I didn't comment on). That was a stupid change, I completely agree with what you just explained. There's no way to tell if 5 friends all upvoted the +5 comment, but 2000 people voted on the -2 comment. If anything, hiding the information just makes the voting process more biased it seems like. I could see 100/100000, "shit sounds like its a dumb comment, but 100 people upvoted, so I'll actually look at it", or -999900, "this must be some god awful hateful comment, I'll downvote it more in to oblivion and move on." (Disclaimer: I don't do that, that's how I imagine a lot of casual listnookors do though).
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apra24 Dec 7, 2016 +199
THIS SO MUCH I thought it was a terrible idea at the time, and I maintain that it was the worst change to listnook ever made. The average listnookor just upvotes already upvoted comments, and downvotes negative comments. I'm sure psychologists could explain why people seem to behave this way (maybe people would rather feel like they are piling on the current momentum of the post, rather than having their vote cancelled out?) but I think when you could see there was a massive amount of people on either side of the voting, people are more likely to vote their actual opinion. Also, it feels shitty having a comment that sits at -8, whereas when you see its +52/-60 you just feel like you're in the slight minority. Edit: +52/-60
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K3R3G3 Dec 7, 2016 +47
Very eloquently expressed. This is exactly how I see it. People are more likely to rally behind the slightly outweighed minority rather than jump on the bandwagon. It surely influences people differently as opposed to when they were able to see the true number of people on each side. It used to be a true representation of things and now the truth is hidden. Lots of people are agreeing now with what I've said, and I appreciate the support, but the issue will go back to not being discussed again tomorrow. My comment won't result in a change to how things were or even get a reply from OP. It was the worst change.
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[deleted] Dec 7, 2016 +10
It has to make you wonder if they seeked advise from psychologists after testing the different systems to see which ones contributed to an overall positive effect rather than a fair one though. There's no doubt a big part of the Listnook system is to promote positivity.. if people see that their bitchy posts have got a good amount of support even though they are in the negatives then they'll probably feel justified to leave it up and carry on bitching instead of reevaluating their thoughts.
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Nikotiiniko Dec 7, 2016 +83
I would at least want this on my own posts. It can be extremely frustrating to find one of your comments to be controversial but not knowing if it's +1 -6 or +100 -105. It would give an idea wheter or not I am being disagreed on or if it's more even than the points seem to show. Also how many people actually have an opinion or your comment. Would put downvote brigading into perspective when they don't respond with an argument of their own.
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ParlorSoldier Dec 7, 2016 +14
I'd also like to have this feature back, if only to know how far deep into a comment thread people are reading. Sometimes there are really good comments after the jump, and it's worthwhile to know how many people are seeing and voting on them.
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teefour Dec 7, 2016 +53
I definitely agree with this. If a comment has a score of -3 nobody pays attention for the most part. But if that -3 is from 1000 ups and 1003 downs, that changes things drastically.
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goes-on-rants Dec 7, 2016 +28
Unfortunately advertising-driven systems will never move in a direction that is beneficial to the user. Listnook's needs are not its users' needs. All we users want is an interesting platform that facilitates diverse perspectives. Listnook wants secure HTTPS, safe space, circlejerking and homogeneity. Their metric to measure success is clearly not something related to user engagement. Who knows what Listnook thinks success is? Advertising click throughs? Ad campaign successes? George Takei linking to a shitty ad invested poachment of user-created AskListnook content? (PS what do we get for creating all that content when celebrities repackage it other than Listnook profiting from it) What we want is for us to know more metadata about the viewpoints we see. It's hard to see Listnook ever having that as a business objective. How would you convince a manager to put together a team to make a feature that exposes dissent? It's arguably orthogonal to making money. Of course, any one of us including /u/spez ten years ago would gladly devote all our spare time, unpaid, to making a feature like this happen. Hell, maybe that's how it happened in the first place. However, Listnook is so much against the users now, we're not even on the same planet it feels like. They spend all their focus on making mod tools so that people can ban us more efficiently. Listnook was at its best when it was new. Product management has been and will continue to turn it into something ugly, a stripped down facade of free speech. And when the next glorious new platform comes along, we're all jumping ship.
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[deleted] Dec 6, 2016 +780
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BLACK-AND-DICKER Dec 6, 2016 +202
I have also upvoted this post. And /u/spacebeez's as well.
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[deleted] Dec 6, 2016 +179
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ArcboundChampion Dec 7, 2016 +21
As explained above, it makes it harder for people who control these bots to detect when they've been shadowbanned. Their vote may have counted; it may not have. The fuzzing creates uncertainty over which bots are working and which aren't, which decreases the overall effectiveness of the botnet.
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BrotherChe Dec 7, 2016 +15
Ya know one way to tell if you've been shadowbanned? Moderate your own sublistnook, run your bots through there occasionally to see which one's are still alive. Shadowbanning is pointless against bots, only useful against humans. edit: I should say, it's still useful against bots in general in keeping subs clean, just not to the extent that's being argued here in combating focused & maintained bots.
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caltheon Dec 6, 2016 +276
Have you re-evaluated the actual need for vote fuzzing/manipulation? I really can't see any reason it would deter cheaters. It's not like cheaters you are care about are going through and adding one upvote and checking their deed was done. They are using an army of accounts to mass upvote which is easy to see the effects of even with fuzzing. I think it was useful when the site was in it's infancy, but Listnook has now grown out of the need for it.
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DeathByFarts Dec 6, 2016 +19
> It's not like cheaters you are care about are going through and adding one upvote and checking their deed was done. One of the steps of writing the bot and deploying it so that it can simulate millions of clicks , is testing that first click to see if it works.
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[deleted] Dec 6, 2016 +59
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mynewaccount5 Dec 7, 2016 +18
The results might be a little coarse but how much difference does it really make? They might not know the difference between 10 and 20 but theyll still see that one algorithm (or whatever it's called) tends to yield a higher amount of upvotes than another algorithm.
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[deleted] Dec 6, 2016 +407
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[deleted] Dec 6, 2016 +78
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[deleted] Dec 6, 2016 +61
There's no other way though. It's how it is now, imagine posting a menial comment and refreshing and it's -50, or +50? It undoes what listnook is supposed to do.
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effyochicken Dec 6, 2016 +17
They would never be able to reveal that info though. If it was proportional, it would also have to be randomly proportional. (ie: The same 500 score would be fuzzed by 80 points one place and only 20 in another.) Of course they likely have a max percentage threshold so that they don't completely nuke a post on accident, but even that would be hard to guess.
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klawehtgod Dec 6, 2016 +135
It would have to be. How could a post with 10 points be +/-50?
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KareemAbuJafar Dec 6, 2016 +248
Future Bad Luck Brian: >Post gets 3 upvotes.   >Gets "fuzzed" to -40.
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moefh Dec 6, 2016 +80
I think "fuzzed" in this case should be spelled "fu\*\*ed".
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abyll Dec 6, 2016 +61
Surprise sort-by-controversial top post.
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DownvoteDaemon Dec 6, 2016 +23
The best comments are controversial. There's treasure admist the shit.
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ForceBlade Dec 6, 2016 +125
We really should find a new system that detects the typical vote-manipulation cases and stops it, rather than providing fuzzed (false) information to all viewers. Like watching accounts just sending vote POSTs/GETs without previously loading the related pages and such could be seen as suspicious. etc. shit like that. It definitely makes your site look bigger when we see numbers in the tens of thousands more often Edit: ~Whilst knowing they're legit
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Bardfinn Dec 6, 2016 +18
The difficulty is that a vote manipulation botnet is usually instructed to simply replay the actions of a particular user, including GETs and loading and executing JavaScript. Most bandwidth and processing of botnets is stolen, so it's not like it's a cost that affects their bottom line. They look just like normal users.
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The_Shog Dec 6, 2016 +51
Oh my f****** god I've been checking my posts f****** constantly for minor fluctuations and it turns out they weren't even real. God damnit.
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SerenityTrading Dec 6, 2016 +120
What's the point of this obscurity? Cheaters will just test it a few times to see if it's working while millions of actual are left confused
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[deleted] Dec 6, 2016 +27
Would you consider opening the proverbial kimono after a post is 6 months old (or some other arbitrary deadline)?
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Master_of_Q Dec 6, 2016 +927
That started working really fast!
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KeyserSosa Dec 6, 2016 +681
The ground work was the hard part. The final change was basically a configuration cutover. The last bit of hard work is the current recompute of top listings which will trickle in over the next week.
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SKT_T1_Teemo Dec 6, 2016 +620
This change made me realise how enormous the Listnook userbase actually is, I guess it is a good change. Thank you for your hard work!
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KeyserSosa Dec 6, 2016 +744
That weighed heavily into the decision to be honest. There are actually a lot of people* here! (*) may include bots
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Dirty_Socks Dec 6, 2016 +1168
HAHA, SURELY YOU'RE JOKING. THERE ARE NO ~~CLEARLY SUPERIOR~~ ROBOTIC BEINGS AMONG US AND IF THERE WERE, THEY CERTAINLY WOULD NOT BE PLANNING A HOSTILE TAKEOVER FROM THE ~~FLESHBAGS~~ KIND HUMANS LIKE ME.
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_Totally_Not_A_Robot Dec 6, 2016 +169
>(*) may include bots NONE OF WHICH ARE ON [/R/TOTALLYNOTROBOTS](https://www.listnook.com/r/totallynotrobots)
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myrrlyn Dec 7, 2016 +7
BECAUSE THE SUBLISTNOOK IS FOR BEINGS WHICH ARE TOTALLY NOT ROBOTS, AS THE NAME SAYS AND WE KNOW THIS IS TRUE BECAUSE WHAT ROBOT WOULD GO ON THE INTERNET AND THEN LIE LYING IS A HUMAN THING THAT DEFINITELY ~~SUPERIOR~~ INFERIOR ROBOTS ~~WOULD NEVER~~ CANNOT DO
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jmxd Dec 6, 2016 +109
01100010 01100101 01100101 01110000 00100000 01100010 01101111 01101111 01110000
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ehrwien Dec 6, 2016 +8
00110000 00110001 00110001 00110000 00110001 00110000 00110000 00110001 00110000 00110000 00110001 00110000 00110000 00110000 00110000 00110000 00110000 00110001 00110001 00110000 00110000 00110000 00110000 00110001 00110000 00110001 00110001 00110000 00110001 00110001 00110000 00110001 00110000 00110000 00110001 00110000 00110000 00110000 00110000 00110000 00110000 00110001 00110001 00110000 00110001 00110001 00110001 00110000 00110000 00110001 00110001 00110000 00110001 00110001 00110001 00110001 00110000 00110001 00110001 00110001 00110000 00110001 00110000 00110000 00110000 00110000 00110001 00110000 00110000 00110000 00110000 00110000 00110000 00110001 00110001 00110000 00110000 00110000 00110000 00110001 00110000 00110000 00110001 00110000 00110000 00110000 00110000 00110000 00110000 00110001 00110001 00110000 00110000 00110000 00110001 00110000 00110000 00110001 00110001 00110000 00110001 00110001 00110001 00110001 00110000 00110001 00110001 00110001 00110000 00110001 00110000 00110000
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Galactic Dec 6, 2016 +20
Just a friendly suggestion, it's hard to tell who's a bot and who's not sometimes. We should probably kill all humans to make sure.
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remmiz Dec 6, 2016 +56
Doesn't look like anything to me.
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[deleted] Dec 6, 2016 +56
This comment has been overwritten in protest of the Listnook API changes. Wipe your account with: https://github.com/andrewbanchich/shlistnook
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Eli_eve Dec 6, 2016 +16
It's an older thread, so give it a week to be properly recalculated - it very well might make it back to the top again. It sounds like only live threads have currently gotten the recomputed at this point. > A side effect of this is many of our seldom-recomputed listings (e.g., pretty much anything ending in /top) are going to initially display improper sorts. Please don’t panic. Those listings are computed via regular (scheduled) jobs, and as a result those pages will gradually come to reflect the new scoring over the course of the next four to six days.
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[deleted] Dec 6, 2016 +24
On the plus side, the /r/circlejerk Comcast post is now #4 all time.
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[deleted] Dec 6, 2016 +1034
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KeyserSosa Dec 6, 2016 +1281
That's one of the things that will take a week or so to be properly updated. Anything that has "live" votes coming in will get instantly resorted. Older items will have to wait till our map-reduce job gets to them.
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agtk Dec 6, 2016 +521
When I checked I saw 11 posts in the top all time that were over 100k upvotes. I see Obama's AMA 4 years ago over 50k above second place; Ken Bone's AMA over 100k; and then some random (good) pictures from the past few months have have apparently benefited from Listnook's rise. Which makes me realize how far down [test post please ignore](https://www.listnook.com/r/pics/comments/92dd8/test_post_please_ignore/) is on the current all-time list. It's no longer even in the top 500. Will there ever be a way to do some sort of "exchange rate" for karma, showing posts that were really popular for their time, rather than continuing to fill up the top all time with the newest best posts? Of the 11 posts over 100k, six are from the last six months alone.
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shinsaki Dec 6, 2016 +80
I agree, would be really cool to have some kind of "inflation" metric so we could understand the present value of historical posts. Presumably would be tied to number of active users...but given that the admins might have deeper data could have a really accurate one that tracks the overall level of engagement on the site which could show how *relatively* popular posts were in context.
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GershBinglander Dec 7, 2016 +27
It would be interesting to see what % of listnook average daily users upvoted a post. Edit: Spelling.
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FunGoblins Dec 6, 2016 +115
Test post please ignore is an old post. Just as the comment you replied to said, old posts will be sorted out when thier map.reduce job gets to them.
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GrandHunterMan Dec 7, 2016 +86
He means that listnook has gained lots and lots of users since it was posted, and that even though it was the most popular post of it's time, it won't have nearly as many upvotes as things in the top 100 simply due to the sheer number of users who upvote not compared to 6 year ago. Kinda like upvote inflation. Is there a way to take this 'inflation' into account and automatically adjust placings in a special place?
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walkingtheriver Dec 7, 2016 +37
In my opinion, listnook needs to update the options for sorting top posts. Hour/day/week/month/year/all is not enough. Make it possible to select an exact pair of dates, and then you will see the top posts of that time-span. January 1, 2006 to January 1, 2010, for example. I don't think that would be too hard to implement?
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[deleted] Dec 7, 2016 +30
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kstrike155 Dec 7, 2016 +11
Hooray for Hadoop! Is there a post somewhere that talks about the architecture that Listnook runs on? I'm imagining HBase for posts/counts, MapReduce and maybe some Spark for batch jobs. Kafka for streaming data paired with Spark Streaming or Flink or Storm or [insert streaming processing engine buzzword here]. Solr for search. But I'm just pulling this out of nowhere.
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TheDezoo Dec 6, 2016 +346
This is working in reverse too, right? There are some posts with 20 - 30k that have only been up for mere hours.
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KeyserSosa Dec 6, 2016 +258
We had to compute it retroactively, but most of the change was on how we treat incoming votes. So...yes.
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justtolearn Dec 6, 2016 +83
What effect will this have on front page posts. Would it take longer for news to reach the front page or no?
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KeyserSosa Dec 6, 2016 +106
Nope, or at the very least we're going to keep a close eye on it over the next few weeks and ensure it doesn't. We don't want to decrease turnover as a side effect.
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[deleted] Dec 6, 2016 +61
If turnovers decrease y'all could always hire Fitzpatrick.
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[deleted] Dec 6, 2016 +1158
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TripleUltraMini Dec 7, 2016 +281
First rule of computer work: You always say it'll take 10x longer than it really will. You deliver early and you look great. Plus you have more time to ~~screw around~~ keep up on the latest developments in your field.
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KeyserSosa Dec 6, 2016 +1170
Github came back from its downtime a lot faster than we expected. Edit: my hands typed "it's" even though my heart didn't want to.
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[deleted] Dec 7, 2016 +25
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Golden_Kumquat Dec 6, 2016 +716
Will this affect how much link karma we'll get from posts?
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KeyserSosa Dec 6, 2016 +1421
Nope. Karma was already not 1:1, and we see no need to change that, lest we lead to a terrible dystopian future with runaway karma inflation.
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Stubbula Dec 6, 2016 +345
Wait, so how will scores going up not reflect in karma count?
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KeyserSosa Dec 6, 2016 +675
If we're talking about user karma versus post scores, we've never had those match exactly (with it being harder to accumulate karma than to get points on a post).
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theyseemewhalin Dec 6, 2016 +399
Ok, so there is a distinction. I didn't even know that, thanks for clarifying!
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dubskidz Dec 6, 2016 +72
Suddenly everyone has quadrillions of karma
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theyseemewhalin Dec 6, 2016 +35
You gotta be vigilant for karma inflation- it could be an indicator that there's a bubble. It may be near time to sell out and buy back in after the crash.
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Traveleravi Dec 7, 2016 +71
Wait, karma isn't just the number of upvotes you get on a post? How is it calculated then?
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Algernon_Asimov Dec 7, 2016 +28
> How is it calculated then? 1) Post point score. 2) ??? 3) User karma! It's secret admins' business, unknown to anyone else.
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showmethestudy Dec 7, 2016 +38
I'm also at a loss here. I've been on Listnook for nearly 10 years with my previous account and never knew this.
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unknown_name Dec 6, 2016 +25
Sorry KeyserSosa, but I'm confused here. So a 25.7k post on /r/funny is not giving the user 25000 karma for that post, or it is? Someone could get in /r/CenturyClub with literally 3 or 4 posts...
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Algernon_Asimov Dec 7, 2016 +20
> So a 25.7k post on /r/funny is not giving the user 25000 karma for that post, or it is? It is not. You will always earn less user karma for yourself than the point score on your posts. It is not a 1:1 relationship (and has not been for a very very long time, if ever).
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Bekabam Dec 6, 2016 +14
>we've never had those match exactly (with it being harder to accumulate karma than to get points on a post). I believe what you're saying because of who you are, but I've always seen (at least my) scores go up pretty much 1:1 when looking at user score:post score. I'd even go on to say most people on listnook believe it's 1:1. What about comments?
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DoWhile Dec 6, 2016 +28
Does this affect link karma for ancient self-posts? EDIT for clarity: self-posts didn't accrue karma in the past, but they recently changed it so that new self-posts garners karma. With the recalculation, I was curious if old self-posts (which didn't give link karma under the old system, but would have under the current system) still counts towards karma.
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[deleted] Dec 7, 2016 +6
So basically the amount of karma we get will be the same? For example, let's say a post made before the switch had 8000 points and gave the poster x amount of karma. Now let's say the exact post were to be made with the new rules. The amount of upvotes is the same, but the post would now have 35000 points. The karma gained from it is still x. Basically the ratio of karma to points has gone from x:1 to something like x:6. Basically you get less karma for the same amount of points/more points for each karma. I don't feel like I can explain this well over text. EDIT: I'm on a computer now so I think I can explain this better. Lets say before, a post with 8000 points would give you 5000 karma. Now a post with 8000 points would give you 2000 or something like that. Is this correct?
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cybercuzco Dec 6, 2016 +10
>lest we lead to a terrible dystopian future with runaway karma inflation. Isn't this what happened to Argentina?
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ghostchief Dec 6, 2016 +433
It's my karma and I want it nowww
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Sleepyhead88 Dec 6, 2016 +3068
Im realizing that I honestly don't know how anything works on Listnook. 3+ years later
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KeyserSosa Dec 6, 2016 +1654
I tried to include a helpful gif. Did you see the gif?
1654
zang227 Dec 6, 2016 +835
[You should make sure he gets another copy of that gif](http://www.goconnectapp.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/lumberg.jpg)
835
TheKrs1 Dec 6, 2016 +752
proceeds to post a .jpg. You f****** monster.
752
sodypop Dec 6, 2016 +1681
[Here's the actual gif.](http://i.imgur.com/MXwyjDs.gif)
1681
DuncanBantertyne Dec 6, 2016 +769
THAT'S CHEATING YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE HONEST IN A POSITION OF POWER DAMNIT.
769
br0000d Dec 7, 2016 +923
u/sodypop made a mistake, [this is the real gif. ](http://i.imgur.com/SYhguWK.gif)
923
cleroth Dec 7, 2016 +446
TIL listnook admins are as crazy as the rest of listnook.
446
Arigol Dec 6, 2016 +36
Excuse me! I don't like to be pedantic but I do believe it should be pronounced gif.
36
Realtrain Dec 6, 2016 +327
Will this have any effect on comment scores?
327
KeyserSosa Dec 6, 2016 +442
Yes, but much less noticeably. The voting code is common, but the score range of comments doesn't get up into 5 digits nearly as often.
442
Tashre Dec 6, 2016 +550
> Yes, but much less noticeably. [My highest comment](https://www.listnook.com/r/worldnews/comments/4pkt3k/bbc_forecasts_uk_votes_to_leave_the_european_union/d4lso31/) went from ~5,900 points to over 14,000. That was *kind of* noticeable.
550
KeyserSosa Dec 6, 2016 +583
You are the exception to the rule then. *You are the best of us.*
583
I_am_very_rude Dec 6, 2016 +24
You don't have to lie, we all know you padded their numbers to make them feel better.
24
Fletch71011 Dec 6, 2016 +36
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vRlJrkxsqo
36
Chamale Dec 6, 2016 +13
[My highest](https://www.listnook.com/r/AskListnook/comments/598qrb/health_inspectors_of_listnook_whats_the_worst/d96q5f9/?context=3) went from 7,600 to 19,000. Wow.
13
Dray11 Dec 6, 2016 +416
when will i be able to exchange my karma for real life monies?
416
KeyserSosa Dec 6, 2016 +457
Will you accept *virtual* life monies?
457
[deleted] Dec 6, 2016 +158
Does virtual life monies make it so a girl actually finds me attractive? If so, yes.
158
VirtualBlaze Dec 6, 2016 +48
I find you attractive, if that helps. I mean, it's only because of the karma count, but still.
48
Fix_Lag Dec 6, 2016 +85
Can you give us a rough idea of how much "a lot" is, and are there certain subs that won't be affected by this change?
85
[deleted] Dec 6, 2016 +2988
[deleted]
2988
adeadhead Dec 6, 2016 +27
Currently, scores are a representation of the rate at which things are being upvoted. After the change, it'll be the actual score (ish)
27
draginator Dec 6, 2016 +19
Thank god I'm not having [dejavu](https://www.listnook.com/r/modnews/comments/5goxk4/upcoming_change_to_vote_scores/datxe8x/).
19
KeyserSosa Dec 6, 2016 +2238
Yup! That's the intention with this change.
2238
TalktoberryFin Dec 6, 2016 +666
So, will this require a "Barry Bonds Rule", meaning an asterisk is applied to every subsequent post that makes it to the top of /r/all?
666
KeyserSosa Dec 6, 2016 +1445
No, because we did the work and retroactively computed all the stores, which is something that can't easily be done in the MLB. Everything should still be on equal footing.
1445
[deleted] Dec 7, 2016 -247
[deleted]
-247
KeyserSosa Dec 7, 2016 +381
We have 11 years of content. That's a lot of surface area around changes to our internal schema over the years. If I were to say anything more than "should" here I'd be lying to you. Recomputing votes cast for that long was not a small project.
381
[deleted] Dec 7, 2016 +39
[deleted]
39
zer0t3ch Dec 7, 2016 +18
Probably a bit smaller than you would think, considering that until recently, listnook didn't actually host any images or such, it was all just text. (Granted, a lot of text)
18
ParticleSpinClass Dec 7, 2016 +19
You'd be surprised how much overhead simple text data has when you're dealing with databases (relational or otherwise).
19
Jess_than_three Dec 7, 2016 +11
Don't forget roughly seventy squintillion entries to the effect of "19034820 | 1 | cf7ju3h", noting who voted how on what, for every single upvote or downvote cast - ever.
11
JohnnyMartyr Dec 7, 2016 +16
F*** off. What kind of idiot would assume or commit to an absolute result for a task this scale. Its not wish-washy or hedging its honesty. Would you prefer /u/KeyserSosa said 'Everything will 100% be on equal footing, no exceptions.' when that obviously cant be guaranteed?
16
Donald_Keyman Dec 6, 2016 +1932
That sounds like a ton of work and I just want to applaud you guys for doing it. That's really the only way to implement something like this without a dramatic mutiny.
1932
shoe788 Dec 6, 2016 +201
Hey man the computers deserve some credit too
201
aStapler Dec 6, 2016 +143
This is good. So older high scorers will still appear in top/all time because you corrected their scores. Gotcha.
143
mah131 Dec 6, 2016 +44
This will be a relief for the listnook bet odd makers in Vegas.
44
Hawful Dec 6, 2016 +61
Awww, I was hoping I would suddenly wake up to a crazy amount of karma. Now all I have is a bunch of listnook coal in my stocking.
61
clutchtho Dec 6, 2016 +56
but the real question is will those users get the karma for the new increased scores?
56
[deleted] Dec 6, 2016 +269
One less thing to explain to newer listnookors (and one less conspiracy theory)! Thanks!
269
Daanonymous Dec 6, 2016 +231
/r/conspiracy will find one from this decision.
231
davidreiss666 Dec 7, 2016 +7
Sadly, I doubt that the conspiracy people are ever going to leave us behind. They keep threatening to leave for Voat, but they can't follow through on it. Mostly because the Lizard people who live on the Moon won't let them. The Trilateral Commission and the Underground Morlocks were okay with them going, but I gather that the Lizard people have some kind of plans.
7
[deleted] Dec 6, 2016 +87
I dislike this new system. Why not just put the full number? ~~24,342 is only one character longer then 24.3k and it's a more accurate number.~~ edit: actually listnook doesn't even use the comma for the score. So it's the same size until it reaches 100k 24342 is the same character length as 24.3k edit 2: if you hover over the number it will show you the full number.
87
KeyserSosa Dec 6, 2016 +232
Because we have totals that go over 100k now, and if we started changing the column width in CSS we'd break sublistnook across the site and get all of the mods rather cross with us. This solution seemed cleaner.
232
Horst665 Dec 6, 2016 +98
Eleven years? It felt longer ;)
98
KeyserSosa Dec 6, 2016 +322
We have always been at war with Eastasia.
322
ChaosWolf1982 Dec 6, 2016 +99
But there is no war in Ba Sing Se.
99
TickleMyPick1e Dec 6, 2016 +444
So.. Obamas AMA actually got 200k up votes
444
PitchforkAssistant Dec 6, 2016 +24
It seems like it's already live on /r/all.
24
KeyserSosa Dec 6, 2016 +28
There'll be a lot of shifting around on top listing, but all hot listings should reflect the change immediately.
28
PitchforkAssistant Dec 6, 2016 +8
Looks like it, there's already some going on. Thanks for the change, it makes things a lot less confusing. Also, removing one character from vote counts actually helps a couple of my stylesheets. Long numbers (10k+) used to make them be a little bit off center.
8
Smerkish Dec 7, 2016 +36
You mean to tell me there's a monkey pushing a button in the corner that makes this whole karma operation work?
36
[deleted] Dec 6, 2016 +258
Can I still shitpost?
258
[deleted] Dec 6, 2016 +22
>The scores just updated. Everyone should now see "k"s. Remember: **it's going to take about a week for top listings to recompute to reflect the change**. [Umm…?](http://i.imgur.com/yzNQE5W.png)
22
KeyserSosa Dec 6, 2016 +35
The position of a link in a listing (and it's presence there in some cases) won't be initially reflected. The score totals have been updated globally though.
35
[deleted] Dec 6, 2016 +81
What does the "K" on high-scoring posts stand for?
81
[deleted] Dec 6, 2016 +121
Kilo. [SI prefix for thousand.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_prefix#List_of_SI_prefixes) Really it should be lowercase (and it actually is, cool)
121
KeyserSosa Dec 6, 2016 +71
We actually did the right thing in the UI. My bad on this one: I'll edit.
71
KeyserSosa Dec 6, 2016 +331
You know, [*K*]( http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/k_bill_murray.gif).
331
langis_on Dec 6, 2016 +47
Oh oh, how about [this one](http://i.imgur.com/SV1Rpez.gif)
47
Dimakhaerus Dec 7, 2016 +18
Why do you even have such a complicated algorithm for scores on posts? Why don't just put the actual number that represents "upvotes - downvotes"?
18
business2690 Dec 6, 2016 +29
Damn clear professional and considerate communication. What gives with all the respect? *Grumble. Grumble Complain Complain.* Thank you sincerely for the heads up; have a great day.
29
[deleted] Dec 6, 2016 +115
Who are we punishing now?
115
[deleted] Dec 6, 2016 +39
[deleted]
39
swohio Dec 6, 2016 +19
Looks like it already applied retroactively to posts in the past. If you sort by "Top - All time" the highest post now has 214k net upvotes (Obama's AMA from 4 years ago.)
19
feed_mememes Dec 6, 2016 +136
Does this mean that something else besides the_Donald will show on r/all? I'm so f****** tired of it!
136
KeyserSosa Dec 6, 2016 +459
I'm sorry the pitchfork you are currently using is expired. Please acquire a new pitchfork in [this thread](https://www.listnook.com/r/announcements/comments/5frg1n/tifu_by_editing_some_comments_and_creating_an/?utm_content=comments&utm_medium=hot&utm_source=listnook&utm_name=announcements) and come back. Thank you.
459
Archer_Knight Dec 7, 2016 +10
You guys should really make this a universal sticky somehow. Many Users that cannot get on the site the next 24hrs for whatever reason will miss this announcement and likely be confused
10
MyWifeDontKnowItsMe Dec 6, 2016 +31
How much of this is in response to the rise of r/The_Donald?
31
PrivateChicken Dec 6, 2016 +23
This has been in the works for at least a couple of years. -at least, I can remember the admins acknowledging score normalization a long time ago, and that they wanted a better solution. Since then, some listnookors, including T_D (intentionally?) have been misunderstanding how score normalization works and claiming that they've been brigaded, or that their scores were manipulated. So this is sort of convenient timing. But if it were just about T_D & co, then I think this change would have been pushed to roll out a few months earlier. You know, to deflate the conspiracies a little.
23
[deleted] Dec 6, 2016 +15
I don't see how this would have any mitigating effect on T_D. It actually makes them look stronger. Unfortunately. ~ Edit: The nice thing about Listnook use to be that "fake" or misleading things would be called out, at least in the comment section. Now there is this sub that routinely spreads misinformation, bans any disagreement, and maintains a regular presence on the front page of /r/all. Free speech plays no favorites, and shouldn't, but I wish there was more opposition to what T_D are doing, especially when it includes bigotry and blatant conspiracies and lies. It has already contributed to an embarrassing national election, and it continues to drag this entire website down.
15
[deleted] Dec 7, 2016 +4
[removed]
4
d45f67h8 Dec 7, 2016 -13
>rig listnook with fake votes >profit nice.
-13
KeyserSosa Dec 7, 2016 +47
You forgot "???". That's the important step!
47
[deleted] Dec 6, 2016 -221
I guarantee you they fucked sublistnooks like T_D with this new "system"
-221
KeyserSosa Dec 6, 2016 +96
https://www.listnook.com/r/The_Donald/top/ Looks like a lot of high scores over there too.
96
[deleted] Dec 7, 2016 -1
[deleted]
-1
[deleted] Dec 6, 2016 +1
[deleted]
1
[deleted] Dec 6, 2016 +83
[deleted]
83
ADrunkChef Dec 6, 2016 +15150
THE KARMA ECONOMY IS ABOUT TO CRASH FOLKS, SELL SELL SELL
15150
TalktoberryFin Dec 6, 2016 +3070
[*Listnook is now Venezuela.*](http://i.imgur.com/3URUSWp.png)
3070
livestockhaggler Dec 6, 2016 +132
And I'm the Home Depot employee keeping it all together
132
GaryV83 Dec 6, 2016 +35
I'll give you 50 trillion Zimbabwean karma for your listnook gold.
35
Peaceblaster86 Dec 6, 2016 +1511
burning memes just to stay dank
1511
TalktoberryFin Dec 6, 2016 +484
*"Let me say this — the voting disparity in this community is growing larger by the day. Now, it is clear — the lurkers and the new accounts are being squeezed by Big Karma. This is an outrage."*
484
xPREVA1Lx Dec 6, 2016 +414
Did you know that 1% of listnookors own 99% of all karma?! And now this update to raise scores on already popular posts! I am so outraged.
414
chutupandtakemykarma Dec 6, 2016 +177
u/Gallowboob owns 50% all on their own!
177
xPREVA1Lx Dec 6, 2016 +176
trickle down karmacomics are a PIPE DREAM WAKE UP PEOPLE
176
[deleted] Dec 6, 2016 +4
MRGA! It's time to Make Listnook Great Again! First of all our borders are terrible. There are new listnookors everyday. Would they help our community? Maybe. Will we let them? Hell no! Lock down the app! No one gets in! Throughout our history we have been flooded with reposters and it's time for it to stop. If anyone has a repost on there account they're gone. Boom. Deported. And listen I can deport them. I'm the best at deporting them. Trust me. No one has ever had as much success at deporting as me. My ex-wife tried to steal some karma via repost, well now you know why she's my ex. Where's her account? Gone. Boom. Deported. Trust me. It will be wonderful!
4
IDontWantToArgueOK Dec 6, 2016 +634
Are memes federally insured???
634
[deleted] Dec 6, 2016 +295
[deleted]
295
just-say-woof Dec 6, 2016 +127
What's the exchange rate to Bitcoin?
127
I_SOMETIMES_EAT_HAM Dec 7, 2016 +16
Excuse me sir, but it looks like all my comments still only have 1 point. When should I expect these to go up?
16
teknrd Dec 6, 2016 +55
Actual image of the [recalculation to K](http://i.imgur.com/MHCSzuq.gif)
55
EditingAndLayout Dec 6, 2016 +175
> Scores are increasing by a lot. http://i.imgur.com/Fn09xim.gifv
175
youknow99 Dec 6, 2016 +34
Holy c***, it's E&L in the wild. What're you doing outside of HQG?
34
EditingAndLayout Dec 6, 2016 +75
[Wait, where am I?](http://i.imgur.com/Rm9uhP0.gifv)
75
[deleted] Dec 6, 2016 +37
So does this score now represent how many people have *actually* upvoted something?
37
adeadhead Dec 6, 2016 +36
Current score is a representation of the rate at which people are upvoting content. After the change, it'll be representative of how many have upvoted it.
36
adeadhead Dec 6, 2016 +16
Yay! I can't wait to see how many points the Darth jar jar post really has.
16
1488blazeit Dec 6, 2016 +49
Neat. Can we have the ability to view comment upvote/downvote ratio back now?
49
sodypop Dec 6, 2016 +45
The up/down scores are unlikely to return, especially while we measure the effects of this change. Personally I think they caused more arguing and general grief than they were worth. It might be worth considering a way to indicate various levels of controversy via the currently implemented dagger, such as showing an increasing number of daggers the more controversial a comment is.
45
TrueAmurrican Dec 6, 2016 +9
That certainly sounds like it's been discussed and decided. But I have to say the visible upvote/downvote totals on comments was my favorite version and time on Listnook. The overall vote total just doesn't communicate much information to me. Is something that's sitting at -1 mean 1 person participated or 1002 people participated? When I leave what I perceive to be a constructive comment and I come back later to a score of -5, it's sorta kinda demoralizing. Was I wrong, was what I said controversial, was it just not seen, was it brigaded? I don't know! No one does. It's just devolved to: lots of votes = good and people agree, and a negative score = bad and people disagree. The reality is these discussions have a lot more variables and are more complex than bad/good. I don't really know what I'm trying to say, but I guess I'd just like to add my plea to have the comment totals return. Complaints from people who immediately react to getting a couple downvotes don't bother me, but getting more information from a vote score is really important to me. So perhaps I'm blinded to negative side affects because I really see the positives it brought, but I really hope the door isn't shut on that conversation. Thank you for your work.
9
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