'She-Hulk' Was Apparently One of Marvel's Most Successful Shows

as a life long marvel fan and mcu enjoyer that is the show that killed it for me. I can tolerate a couple bad movies here and there but to screw up SI that poorly showed they have no clue what they're doing anymore. Haven't watched anything from marvel since.

The show was Secret Invasion

That show was a massive failure that all the revamping of MCU we saw like them deciding to fully canonise Netflix shows etc is the product of SI failing. Kang getting written out, Doom, the shows being written to stand on its own etc are outcomes of Secret Invasion failing hard and the months-long strike giving them opportunity to think it all through. Unfortunately Captain America movie was far into production that they couldn't do much

I remember watching the trailer for secret invasion thinking “oh my god this movie will be amazing” then when I saw it was a show I knew it was going to be garbage.

I would be shocked. I stopped after the second or beginning of the third episode. If its second its only because it had some hype because of the arc it was based off in the comics. It took a long slow burn story that finally pays off with big reveals with huge ramifications and turned it into an extremely weak spy thriller with no overbearing consequences. Can you imagine a Secret Invasion level of quality of a show coming out before End Game? They were really steering into an iceberg.

That would be amazing. I think She-Hulk had an advantage in that it was really accessible. It was a good show first and foremost, but also one that you could just jump in and watch, without knowing anything about the MCU. Even the Hulk crossover didn't really need any knowledge ahead of time. Secret Invasion felt very in-the-weeds of the MCU, with a lot you needed to know. Also, it just wasn't very good.

Would be mind blown. To this day it’s one of two MCU projects I haven’t finished.

they are billing every streaming service as a tech company. tech companies get investors super wet. they figure, throw a hundred quadrillion dollars at the company now, and five years from now, it will take over the world a la google and earn all that money back. this is the same reason they invested a downright idiotic amount of money into wework. it was a real estate company, but they called it a tech company and investors just went gaga.

It's to the point where the shows are just an ad for the next movie, so if they make a loss on the show they hope to make up for it with the movie.

Secret Invasion was like 50million an episode.

Surely they saved at least 35m of that 50m budget for those first two episodes of WandaVision which were deliberately effects-lite.

I mean, it can't be c**** to digitally replace/mocap your main character in most of her scenes. $25 million seems high, but all the Star Wars shows were movie-level budgets per episode, so who knows.

Everything Everywhere All At Once had a budget of 25m.

*Single female lawyer, fighting for her client.  Wearing s*** miniskirts and being self-reliant*

Yeah. That's my only complaint with the show: The legal content was really bad and underbaked. I think there's a ton of mileage in using the Perry Mason or Matlock formula, except it's defending super-villains and superpower-relsted crimes.

Yeah, I wanted it to be something more like Harvey Birdman, Attorney at Law.

I am an old school comic book nerd from the early 80s and realized from the first episode that She-Hulk was a test to see how far they could push the boundaries of the MCU. Could an Alley McBeal style legal sitcom survive in the MCU? If so, could a Night Nurse medical drama about medical personnel who treat superheroes work? Rosario Dawson would probably love for that to happen as her character was one of the best parts of the Daredevil-Luke Cage-Defenders shows. The Night Nurse (Rosario) was the glue that joined all of the shows together and I absolutely love the idea of a regular person going through loads of crazy situations just to help the heroes. She-Hulk was the experiment to see if Marvel could move beyond the typical superhero stories and fight fests that viewers normally expect. As a guy and old school nerd (AD&D 1st edition for ever!) I hope that Marvel will keep She-Hulk going and keep pushing the boundaries. God knows they seem to be running out of ideas and only committing to nostalgia bait at this point.

It also would have been cheaper that whatever they ended up doing.

If I had one critique of the series, it would be this. While I did like a fair chunk of the meta play, even the bigger drops at the end, I didn't like that when the show snapped back to "reality", everything was just magically resolved. I'd rather they either have presented an alternate version of the big climax, even if that version wasn't action packed. I'd compare it to the end of Blazing Saddles, which does a similar rug pull but somehow manages to make it work.

The whole meta element was handle very poorly. For most of the show, the meta moments were so rare that I always forgot about them, and it was jarring when she'd suddenly start talking to the camera again. Then it went 100% meta for the finale, so there was effectively no ending at all. I do think the finale was executed well, though. It's ironic that her fight with >!Marvel Studios security guards!< was the best action scene in the entire series.

I didn't really like how the show downplayed Hulks mentorship on how to manage anger for saying he doesn't know what its like being a women, i mean shes right and why she is angry is valid but preaching to the choir with hulk about reasons to be angry considering Bruce Banner had an abusive father who regularly beat him and his mother, was treated like a monster by everyone including other superheroes and was hunted down by the government like an animal for years when he literally did everything to make himself less dangerous to others.

Yeah. Thor Ragnarok was actually an adaptation of Planet Hulk.

Why were Wandavision and Agatha all the way loved then?

It absolutely got dragged because of dumb culture war shit. Half the criticism you'd see were referencing the throwaway twerk gag with Megan thee stallion

But Wandavision managed just fine though

I would argue that Agatha was an even more feminist show that heavily focused on queer relationships, and had a female main character, and yet it didn’t receive any of the criticism that she Hulk got

Idk, Jessica Jones was really liked even among those "drama addicted critics." I think its a very simplistic excuse to blame it all on misogyny or racism. I'm not saying it wasn't true for some people, but I personally thought She Hulk was really poorly written. It wasn't that bad, but it was definitely not good.

Wandavision exist you know.

Thats absolutely not true for me. I loved WandaVision, Captain Marvel, Ms Marvel, The Marvels....I have absolutely no problem loving women main characters. I even love the actress who plays SheHulk. But still i disliked the show. I didnt like its writing, I didnt find its breaking of the fourth wall that amazing, and the humour didnt hit with me at all. Also, Bruce Banner is originally shown to have a lot of difficulty controlling the madness within him. But she can immediately handle it because........she has experience getting cat called? Sorry, but i hated it....and it has nothing to do with sexism.

Why do we have to do this? I'm a woman and I HATED she hulk. It was a bad show and a waste of time. Not everyone is involved in the stupid low brain gender wars.

So, why is Jessica Jones very well received?

People didn’t hate Jessica Jones - I’m not doubting that it could play a part but throwing that out there

The classic “trash tier writing, mediocre acting, shitting in decades of lore, and making a show that belittles the main demographic that watches it because every man has to be a bumbling idiot” was really just “they didn’t like her because woman” even though people loved agents of shield with multiple female leads and also loved black widow. What a very well thought out argument you have.

I seriously doubt that's the reason... so many popular IPs have a woman as the main character... if it's well written and good it's loved, if not it's hated

I thought it fumbled its premise by mishandling the relationship between Jen and Bruce, by sidestepping any emotional weight or narrative consequence with how it presented the return of Abomination, and by directly breaking the fourth wall to say "this is a lawyer show" before being truly terrible at showing interesting or dramatic legal cases. I loved Tatiana Maslany's performance and would love to see her return in a starring or supporting role as Jennifer Walters in the future. I would absolutely agree with the clear fact that a massive amount of backlash against the show was sexist, but I don't think it's fair to suggest that that's the only problem the show had.

[removed]

I wanted to like it as I love Tatiana. I thought the first episode was decent, but it went further off the rails as the season went along. and I dunno why they turned Matt into a simp. In the end the humor was cringe and the drama was weak.

I didn’t enjoy it cuz there wasn’t any legal drama. I can’t really even remember any courtroom scenes tbh. I thought we were getting LA Law for the MCU. But that was my “criticism” that was just disguised as hate I guess? Anyways, have a good day!

All I remember is people making fun of she hulk twerking lol

I've been saying for a decade that the MCU for me is just like some good old fast food. I know I'll be getting something decent, it won't be some high end meal sure, but I can be confident it's gonna be good enough. And then from time to time you go to one at 3am half-drunk half-high and holy shit this one specific instance is the best goddamn culinary experience of your life. Secret Invasion was the one time that the food was cold and I got sick from it, but otherwise it's always been perfectly fine for me.

you get Agatha in there right this instance ok

Loved Agatha All Along, Witches Road has been stuck in my head for months.

I appreciate you.

> Secret Invasion at least had Fury and the Skrulls It's why I am more angered by Secret Invasion. That cast was stacked and that storyline was wasted on a miniseries that needed proper build up/ an actual movie and then represcussions. None of which happened or will happen. It was such a gigantic waste of everything.

Their actions should speak for themselves. If it was successful by a metric they cared about, there would be a season 2. 

Yeah how SheHulk can be more popular than those two shows is crazy talk. 

Most of the shows don’t have 2nd seasons

The only Marvel show that was greenlit for 2 seasons right off the get-go was Loki. Daredevil was supposed to be 1 season that got cut in half because they had to rewrite the whole show and Wonderman was intended to only be 1 season and only just got greenlit because of its success. She-Hulk did not get canceled.