Spain calls for an EU army

Call it a defence force to start with might help set its direction

It only can made step by step. First a EU-NATO. To get an overall command structure that can operate for all EU armies. Simultaneously more standardization and integration between the member states as we have in NATO level . Then a combined procurement system that countries can join but don't have to. So France still can push it's own industry. But all willing nations can easily use its structures to do it together. A fixed percentage minimum of GDP that members have to spend for defence An overarching strategy and ability plan. To get the needed abilities together that it can work independently from the U.S. and even independently from singe members, so no vetos of single members will be possible by not adding these crucial ability to a mission. Then later on you maybe can add a real EU force. That is directly under EU command, financed either by a EU budged or by member states that decide to reduce their own armies budged and instead put the money to the EU forces. But only additionally to the national armies. Member states then can decide to reduce or even discharge their own armies in favour of financing the EU armiy. That process then can be inslcentiviced by for example saying that every % of GDP you ad to the EU army reduces your requirement to spend on a national army by 1.5%. It will probably never lead to the EU having one army like the U.S has. That's even impossible, as long as single members states still have terititory that is not EU territory, so they have military interests that are outside of an EU Interrest. But it maybe also doesn't need to ever get like this. Maybe it's even a good thing cause it will also add some safety net. So yeah step by step is what needs to be done. It just needs to have a plan and be started

Besides, an EU army without a federal centralized political power would be useless for the same reasons

And that's before you even approach the various warfare doctrines of each nation! Which would only complicate things MORE

this issue is on all subjects, just like germany tried to force other eu members to go green by buying solar and wind energy infrastructure which is mainly made in germany; instead of adopting nuclear power

That’s the problem with the EU as a whole, not just an EU army.

It's not so much about how Army looks like. Your Army is extension of your foreign policy. So, much bigger problem is how would we use that army. There are countries who want to use that army in colonization of Africa and there are countries who want it to be used to defend against Russian aggression. That has to be decided before we start with EU army.

Same argument works against the EU and we made it work

Spainish government is empty retoric. The actual issue (for them, for us citizens it would be good) would be that an European Army would spend and build to protect european borders, not buy votes in Spain. And since Spain is nowhere at risk of foreign invasion, all personal and bases would be placed in Germany (for being in the center and easy to move everywhere) and Poland/Romania (because they are menaced). Fleet wise, it's equally probable that most fleet will be placed in Italy/Greece and again germany/Norway. For citizens it means to spend less/better. For governments it means less freebies to distribute to their constituents. Spanish government is not made of statists. Not more than the other governments. This is boutade. If the topic was truly in the european agenda they would oppose it.

Use the best rated equipment, but the countries that manufacture them in Europe should sell them at a d*******, more jobs. Other nations should provide materials and receive the equipment in return etc etc countries that produce large amounts of equipment don’t need to contribute as much funding etc, there will be ways to do it. Everyone just needs to sit down and have a proper talk about how it would work

I think it would imply a central command and each country would contribute with certain assets, a lot like how NATO works.

We already have the same sort of issue in all military agreements. NATO and AUKUS etc. these disagreements can and have been delt with.

Going to shock you but a lot of planes are shared between powers, either with modifications or older generations.

If theres the formation of an EU Army it would likely be in responce to replacing NATO if the US remains unreliable or the Orange Chud pulls a fast one. If its purely designed as a European Defence Force primarily for defending the continent and keeping whats left of Vatnik Russia in check as well as act as act as an emergency force for diasters and other emergencies it would likely get much more buy in as well.

Perun on YouTube made an entirely EU equipped army for April fools. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BFoJGHZEqAk&pp=ygUYcGVydW4gZXUgYXJteSBlcXVpcG1lbnQg0gcJCQMLAYcqIYzv

You set up a Defence organisation like NATO.... Each nation of European and CANZUK agree on 4% GDP on maintaining their own Military capabilities. They are then divided into preset Army groups based on each nations strengths an and weaknesses/geography. Global command would comprise of One General from the Army, Navy, Airforce and Cyber headed by each nations foreign secretary for each remote Security Meeting. Each nation has 1 veto a year to avoid misuse and major decisions are voted on in a Vatican style lockdown. Army groups handle their designated responsibilities autonomously but with constant comunications with EUROCANZUK command. Add a military parts and tech trade agreement between members, monitored and supported via a dedicated scientific board of defence.

I still fail to see how having multiple suppliers that are bound by compatibility agreements competing against each other. Competition breeds innovation and efficiency.

Even before you get to paying for it, they all need to agree on a common set of defence priorities and strategy. Every single time someone proposes an EU army, they go on and on and on about the (obvious) benefits, but completely ignore the challenges and trade-offs that actually prevent it from happening. Every single proposal for a joint EU army boils down to 'The \[proposing nation\]'s existing armed forces, but bigger, and paid for by everyone else'. To a fault they are all completely fantastical and unserious. France, italy, Germany, and Spain don't want an EU army; they want a French, Italian, German, or Spanish army subsidised by the rest of the bloc

France is only agreeing to it if they’re leading.

"France is calling it for the decades" and yet france is the only one that refused it when the vote happened. (Italy didn't refuse they were still in the parliament phase but considering the prime minister at the time was the one that asked for the vote on an European army it was clear that Italy would have passed it once it got through parliament, remember that the grandfather of the EU was an Italian minister at the time and was the right hand of the prime minister. it is the person that made EU and created the whole idea of it, although he wanted it to be more federal). I hate every time people say "France is asking for it for decades" , I guess fact checking things is too much for french propagandists.

France hasn't. They want a more European defence (in the sense of "European-organised"). I doubt the average French politician is ready for the kind of drastic change a "true" European army would bring, assuming it was given the political framework to be effective. Such a thing would require such a transfer of power from member-states to the Union that the National Assembly would reject it.

No 💶️ sorry amigo, do you accept payment in 🍅️s?

the amount that an EU country spends on defence is inversely proportional to its distance from Russia.

The 5% norm isn’t even 5% on military hardware It’s 3.5% on military modernization and 1.5% on infrastructure resilience. The complaints about The Hague Summit declaration are completely uninformed

Just a way to again get bailed out by the others. Spain has a huge financial deficit, bad economy, and a government that leaches.

Lol I was thinking the exact same. Top Grifter going to keep on grifting!

Spain position was against spending a fixed amount of gdp. They proposed Instead, a set of capabilities should be available, no matter the money spent to attain them. Of course, is you are the one selling weapons you want everyone just spend money For example, united states spend more than any country in health, but their indicators are amongst the worst in the industrialized world. The same could apply for military. Why set the target in money if some countries are able to be more efficient in the spends?

we pay 2.5% like almost all other countries currently

Isn't Spain also buying Russian gas to fund the Russian invasion of Europe?

Quick reminder that \*no one\* has paid the 5% yet. Only Poland has come somewhat close.

TO WAR!!!!!

I'd assume it's Spain's discontent with NATO (and Trump) that leads them to make such a statement about an EU Army in the first place, but I agree entirely. They've historically been behind, and that's not a good look for further military structuring.

My assumption would be that every country *would* still have their own armies. Each country would just allocate a certain amount of their forces & munitions to an EU Defense Force. Maybe each one sends a delegate / commander to represent their interests & they create a process to make decisions all together. As an American, I think that they should. The rhetoric coming from our current president & 1/3rd of our country is pretty scary…I think Europe should prepare themselves for the worst case scenarios as it doesn’t look like US right-wing is planning on ceding power anytime soon. All that being said, I’m personally ready to make changes in my country when the time arises. However that looks, I will participate…whether it’s “democracy”, or taking matters into our (the people) hands. ^i ^prefer ^the ^latter…

Once it's fully implemented it should be a lot cheaper than all the current parallel structures. Just the implementation is gonna be very expensive for a while.

Of course that’s what they want

I'm sure there are ways to ensure that all EU members budget for it accordingly if there's a regional framework in place, at least we know it's not working now.. would be good to start discussions about it and how to implement it

Turkey isn't in the EU.

what does Turkey and China has to do with an european army?

Would be nice if it came from any other country than the one that doesn’t want to contribute to NATO.

been waiting for fortress europe

Who do you see leading it in 10 years? Weidel?

In theory, the treaty somewhat exists already. "The EU's mutual defence clause is Article 42(7) of the Treaty on European Union (TEU). It states that if an EU member state is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, other member states have an obligation to provide aid and assistance by all the means in their power." The problem is the bureaucracy, it would kill military response time. An EU army would be equally bureaurcraratic mess, meaning it won't work. Best bet is to have EU joint command structure that has supreme power during time of war, so it can have direct control over individual member states mlilitaries while in a conflict. Basically, a command and control that has all the top brass of respective members with EU council on top giving orders to certain EU qualified units, until mobilization kicks in anyway. Once this is taken as a foundation, the rest can be expanded in time to full fledged integration over time,but the keystone is overcoming prejudice that exist within the EU, such as west europeans thinking they are "better" than east europeans, lack of understanding how foreign equipment works in different militaries, as an example, use all you have and slowly have a standard, replacing old equipment instead of just demanding X country to buy all X equipment because they are "not interoperable" or whatever lobbying you can think of.

They are already paying for the Russian military via oil imports.

At the top of my head: * It could make the EU less reliant on the US (a big thing in a world where the US is swinging wildly between splendid isolationism or belligerence). * It could make weapons procurement more cost effective if we bought all our material as one buyer instead of 23ish different nations.