I think the EU is in a tough spot right now
The US has gone crazy, Russia very vocally wants to invade Eastern Europe while the ME is in flames
Basically the only superpower currently not openly threatening Europe is China. Except China also kinda backs Moscow and wants to dominate others economically
Besides hurrying up with the whole "Become a federation" thing, Bruxelles really needs to work on its international alliances
508
Mikogaki4 days ago
+308
for me, EU should go option 3:
Stand on their own and become a super power
not easily but hey, 3rd player is needed (**NO, RUSSIA ISNT A SUPERPOWER. ITS DELUSIONAL REGIONAL POWER)**
308
Lowfi-Concert4 days ago
+95
They’d have to federalize to do that which isn’t happening
95
Old-Pudding69504 days ago
+65
I don’t think they’d have to federalize, they just need more vertical power on specific matters:
- preventing Veto right from being abused again
- further energy integration (which is clearly happening)
- further infrastructure (which is being built)
- further military integration (which is happening, see the recent Michelangelo’s dome from Italy, a EU multi-level defensive system; or Italy’s Leonardo collaborating with France’s Thales Alenia Space and Germany’s Rheinmetall, UK and Italy collaborating on GCAP to build 6th generation airplanes…)
- further military alliances (like a EU branch of NATO, or expanding the Nordic Defensive Alliance which already exists)
- further financial union (which is getting discussed right now, see the recent “*Savings & Investment Union*”)
.
They don’t need to federalize to do all that. Actually, I’d argue how the EU currently works it’s superior to traditional nation-statecraft in many ways
It’s a “pragmatic federalization” as Draghi said
65
Lowfi-Concert4 days ago
+23
For integrating the military and veto rights issues to be solved, greater federalization would be needed.
23
Old-Pudding69504 days ago
+12
If by “greater federalization” you mean “further military integration” yes, that’s tautological
If by “greater federalization” you mean everything else:
- The EU doesn’t have a single centralized government: Member states retain their own sovereignty, constitutions, citizenship and governments.
- The EU doesn’t have fiscal authority: Member states retain full control over taxation and spending
.
Both are core ideas of federalization, yet they’re not needed to accomplish any of the points of my previous reply
That’s why I said the EU doesn’t necessarily have to federalize, I think they’re paving their own unique way
12
Lowfi-Concert3 days ago
+1
Sure but good luck trying to implement those that way? What if a state refuses to put the required military budget into the joint military? What if one state vetos a military action? There has to be something that trumps that or it makes the whole thing ineffective.
1
Old-Pudding69503 days ago
+1
Very good questions, thanks for writing them. I’d say those are some possible solutions:
**Veto Workarounds:**
- Qualified majority voting instead of unanimity (Ursula Van Der Leyen brought up this point herself a few days ago regarding foreign politics)
- Coalitions of the Willings: Allow subgroups of states to act without all 27 (that’s the way NORDEFCO currently works, the same thing could be done for the Mediterranean, the Balkans, Eastern Europe, then integrate them with an overall structure)
- NATO-like system: mimic how article 5 works: because you don’t want to lose close allies, most countries spontaneously choose to intervene and collaborate. Trust is a valuable currency, even more than money
.
**Required military budget workarounds:**
- Incentives: The EU could tie access to certain funds (eg. EDF) or industrial contracts to participation in joint projects
- Flexiblity: allowing states to contribute capabilities (cyber tech, logistics…) instead of money, reducing resistances
- You don’t need common forced military budget, you need a structure/framework that makes National armies collaborate repeatedly and apply their existing shared European geopolitical view/interests/values. Once that is set, you can use National armies together
Admittedly, this may remain a weakness of such a system
.
**On the other hand, this system may prove superior in many ways:**
- Diversification: each national army has a different military doctrine/training structure/mentality: building deep cooperation without uniformity allows to pass down peak specializations (eg. Nordic countries are the world’s best in arctic operations, Greece/Spain in amphibious operations, France has good power projection/intelligence, East European on land, Germany in logistics, Italy in naval operations…). Traditional Uniformity may be killing those different mentalities reducing creative military approaches
- Optimization: similarly, this structure allows successful national policies to scale up and be adopted, it works as a creative forge for new military ideas
- Adaptability: A networked defense union can scale up or down as needed (eg. a crisis in the Sahel can be addressed by France, Italy, and Spain governments, which know the situation better, with others contributing niche capabilities. A single government with a top-down approach can’t do that as well)
- Resistance: Unlike a single army, a distributed system is harder to paralyze. If one country opts out, others can still operate
- Enlargement: it is easy to absorb other partners as they don’t have to concede National military sovereignty: the US cannot absorb Mexico into its defenses, the EU could easily absorb Ukraine
1
meechmeechmeecho4 days ago
+43
IMO, it’s impossible without some sort of power imbalance within Europe. If the US truly exited Europe, another European country would just fill the power vacuum.
The most likely candidate would be Germany. But would the rest of Europe be fine with Germany taking a central role? My prediction would be infighting, and eventually being at each other’s throats again.
For centuries, the greatest threat to Europe has been Europe. I don’t think enough has changed in the past century to fundamentally change that.
43
georgewesker974 days ago
+37
I would say that the most important factor in todays worlds is that both China and US are much more powerful than any single European country.
Unless they work together, they will be bullied and thrown around individually.
37
eutoputoegordo4 days ago
+20
The French, the English and the Germans would never allow each other assume a central role.
20
Front_River73144 days ago
+4
sure but the English are not really involved anymore because "Brexit means Brexit" and all that jazz.
4
Zubba7762 days ago
+1
If only they thought of that! Like it's easy to just "be" a super power.
No offense, but the EU isn't a superpower, it's a group of delusional regional powers in an economic union.
In order to become a super power the EU would need a unified foreign policy, and an EU army. There are very real economic, and political barriers that are fairly steep preventing the EU from becoming a unified strategic block not least of which is the unwillingness to spend more on defense, and for states to give up central authority to a governing body.
1
FantasticalRose4 days ago
+10
China is fueling Iran with more weapons. So that's going to go great.
10
closing-the-thread4 days ago
+64
>…_[China]_ kinda backs Moscow…
Kinda? Hahahaha
64
Sanguiniusius4 days ago
+48
They back them to a point but china has no interest in letting russia be anything more than a junior partner. Not good news for ukraine right now but worth remembering that china views russia as a convenience, not a friend.
48
theequallyunique4 days ago
+18
The Iran war shows how much Chinas cooperation is worth: not much when they can't profit. They don't help militarily, but are happy to buy c**** oil.
18
MercantileReptile4 days ago
+5
They're delivering weapons. Still for their own reasons, but "not helping militarily" is clearly incorrect.
5
theequallyunique4 days ago
+1
That rather underlines my point: they are profiting, but not actively helping. Maybe there's some information exchange so china's military learns something as well. But again, it's to their advantage, they aren't sending troops for protection or anything like that.
1
MexicanEssay4 days ago
Yes, kinda. They basically only back Russia over Ukraine/The EU because staying on friendly terms and forming connections and mutual understandings with the different powerful groups within Russia will eventually make it much easier to basically swallow up the country once it inevitably collapses.
0
flex6744 days ago
+5
China also backs forced labor, slavery, oh yeah, they want to invade Taiwan…
5
Midiamp4 days ago
+13
About China wanting to dominate economically is not political I assume, it's just well, basic economics, to profit more than the competition.
With that state of mind, the competition has to step up and provide comparable goods and services which in the end provides choice for the consumer.
13
Effective_Reach_92894 days ago
+36
Don't forget that China has threatened to nuke Japan. While it may not be threatening Europe, it's not a government to be trusted either. Also remember the Uighurs and Tibetans. [https://komonews.com/news/nation-world/in-propaganda-video-china-threatens-to-nuke-japan-after-japan-vows-to-defend-taiwan](https://komonews.com/news/nation-world/in-propaganda-video-china-threatens-to-nuke-japan-after-japan-vows-to-defend-taiwan)
36
ValuableUpset93484 days ago
+70
+ taiwan invasion +west phillipines sea bullying + nine dash/10dash lines which are updated each year showing more and more territory of other dozen countries as historically Chinese + government funded cyber ops targeting every company on earth stealing new tech + using a whole fishing armada as grey zone tactic to ruin countries shorelines all around world and act as hired militant for taiwan invasion + hong Kong brutality. Basically the list goes on and on.
China is a imperialistic state like Russia, it's just they are smarter then them and wait for perfect chance to strike.
70
Bulky_Reveal_19374 days ago
+11
+ the fact that no matter how many times people repeat rhetorics on Listnook, our actual leaders aren’t idiots.
Europe is very wary on Chinese trade policy and even Sanchez’ condition for better relations with China is the opening of their markets, which they largely keep closed for domestic production only while mass exporting/dumping into other economies to make domestic production redundant and make consumers overly reliant on China.
Europe hasn’t found the solution to this problem, but it has identified and certainly won’t encourage it. Despite all the talks here, the biggest threat to European sovereignty in practice is still China by a landslide, as your economic power directly decides your military power.
And on top of that, Spain is still pretty isolated in this stance. The EU is in far too deep with the US and there is no real want to break away from the US, despite what people say online. It would be compromising Europe as a superpower, with how reliant the two economies are with each other. Every trade agreement in the last 2 decades has been transatlantic, purposefully excluding China. And with the Ukraine war, even energy has fully become transatlantic, with US supplying 53% of Europe’s yearly total energy. Every government & NATO itself insist on good relations with US.
What we ARE seeing is Trump as a persona becoming so unpopular that even his “right wing allies” in Europe are breaking away from him (see Meloni in Italy or Afd or NVA in Belgium) in order to secure their own domestic popularity.
11
TessaFinks4 days ago
+9
Reminds me of India, one of Russia's closet allies which is an imperialist state bullying Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangaldesh and released a map claiming parts of those countries and Pakistan as part of greater India. Then of course you have India assassinating Canadians and trying to assassinate Americans. Don't forget India crushing dissent in Kashmir and how the US named India as the second biggest thief of IP. Of and of course the Indian government demanding US social media companies ban accounts criticizing India.
9
ricecanister4 days ago
+23
Someone posting a video online is very very different from “china has threatened to nuke Japan”
on the other hand, Japanese statements on China that started this tat, do come directly from the top. And China has a reason to be wary given past history
23
Varlin4 days ago
+6
EU's only real option is to make the sacrifices needed to strengthen up and become a superpower themselves but they don't really have the strength of will or freed up capital to commit to it. They will have to drastically cut their social programs to free up funds for military investment which would be political suicide for any of their politicians so they are in a hard catch 22 situation.
Right now they just are a sitting duck to be taken advantange of by the big 3 superpowers.
6
StockCasinoMember4 days ago
+36
If the EU goes all in on China, they deserve what they get.
36
Gloomy_Experience1124 days ago
+42
Like they went all in on murica and are getting what they getting. What's your point?
42
meechmeechmeecho4 days ago
+20
Nearly a century of relative peace and prosperity? Lmao, okay…
I guess they could go back to murdering each other every 25-50 years
20
VladimiroPudding4 days ago
+16
Well, for HALF a century of relative peace and prosperity, it was needed a Cold War and some people in Washington Very Concerned(TM) in preventing Communism to spread in Europe to pour money there.
Now that the Cold War is gone, it only needs a Orange Clown to try to invade Europe LMAO.
16
Gloomy_Experience1124 days ago
-9
Nearly a century relying on a country for peace and prosperity for one orange clown to wipe all that in a matter of years leaving allies vulnerable due to this reliance? Tells you how fragile this "century" old alliance is. All it takes is an orange clown to make america a circus again.
-9
TreatAffectionate4534 days ago
+6
If Xi dies and is replaced by a corrupt fool - which isn't unheard of in authoritarian states - the EU would be in a similar position with China as it is currently with the US. However, there wouldn't be an obvious time limit to the new Chinese leaders term.
It seems better for the EU to diversify its relationships vs hitching itself to another superpower.
6
Gloomy_Experience1124 days ago
-3
We all know china aint doing that. Learning from the one corrupt fool which isn't an IF. why are you talking IFs, were talking what is already happening. Not an IF. The circus is on full display.
-3
TreatAffectionate4534 days ago
+2
>We all know china aint doing that.
Before 2016, no one thought the US would elect Trump. Disregarding a bad scenario because you think it's unlikely to happen is just making the same mistake twice.
>Learning from a corrupt fool which isn't an IF. why are you talking IFs
Because we're discussing the future consequences of current day decisions. No one can predict the future with perfect accuracy so we have to think in terms of possible scenarios and contingencies rather than assuming a single course of events when weighing options.
>The circus is on full display
I'd refrain from ad hominem. It weakens your credibility unless you're preaching to an audience that's already on your side.
2
ASpellingAirror4 days ago
-1
So you are telling me you don’t know anything about Chinese history. When a good leader dies, their favorite thing to do is replace them with a corrupt government that results in the entire country fracturing into warring states.
-1
Gloomy_Experience1124 days ago
+3
I'm telling you I know what I can see NOW? What i can see is the circus in murica. What do you see looking at murica? A messiah blessing epstein?
3
IdeallyIdeally4 days ago
>When a good leader dies, their favorite thing to do is replace them with a corrupt government that results in the entire country fracturing into warring states.
That just tells me you know nothing about Chinese history lmao.
If we're talking about the CCP, most of their modern leaders have been relatively stable on after the other. The most disruptive was arguably Mao.
If we're talking ancient history, firstly succession was based on the line of succession so the odds of a corrupt Emperor were the same as a corrupt King in Europe. And a lot of the time's it wasn't through the actions of the Emperor but just natural disaster which the people interpretted as the Emperor losing favour with the Heavens and losing their divine mandate to rule. Neither of these factors are predictive of modern China.
0
Gloomy_Experience1124 days ago
+2
Explains why spains strengthened ties with china, since murica now has a king and more recently, a messiah.
2
StockCasinoMember4 days ago
-5
You mean the greatest quality of life in the history of the world?
Yes, dumbo is being a dipshit but give me a break.
The clear lesson is to be self sufficient and build up an alliance of middle countries to balance against USA, China, and Russia.
-5
jordan8534 days ago
+8
You can't be this naive.
To think that what's happening in the US is just a temporary hiccup and not a symptom of a larger disease seems so ignorant.
8
StockCasinoMember4 days ago
-4
Where did I say that?
My entire point was that EU under nato and USA hegemony has achieved the highest quality of life in human history under that.
And said that the EU should realize it is time to become self sufficient and build a coalition that can stand up to the USA, China, or Russia and doesn’t rely on any of them.
-4
blankarage4 days ago
greatest quality of life in the history of the world after subjecting other countries into generations of poverty?
0
StockCasinoMember4 days ago
If that is true, where and who that would apply, and the EU feels so bad about it, they can certainly feel free to send money.
0
Gloomy_Experience1124 days ago
+1
Yes the lesson is to not rely on ONE superpower but to become one yourself, ie the European union
1
shootinjack4 days ago
+3
They got the welfare states they wanted
3
InternationalHair7254 days ago
+3
Um a rational and strong partner?
3
StockCasinoMember4 days ago
+4
A partner that is enabling Russia, North Korea, and others.
A partner that also ignores international law when they disagree with the verdict.
And more.
Self sufficiency and a coalition to balance against China, USA, and Russia is the far smarter choice.
4
[deleted]4 days ago
-11
[deleted]
-11
Gengo07084 days ago
+4
USA is not an ally but neither is China. Who do you think they’ll choose if it came down to Russia or EU?
4
ricecanister4 days ago
-2
Who do you think China will choose? The EU is a much larger trading partner than Russia.
You’re not thinking about your own question.
-2
Gengo07084 days ago
+2
100% Russia. They view the Russian alliance as a matter of national security due to the large border and shared communist ideals.
2
StockCasinoMember4 days ago
+3
EU got the greatest quality of life in the history of earth.
The lesson here ultimately is to be more self sufficient.
To balance the middle countries against the USA, China, and Russia.
3
DaveVdE4 days ago
+3
China backs Russia if it’s in their best interest.
3
righteous_sword4 days ago
+1
China is breaking up the EU. It establishes ties with separate countries and shuns the EU representatives. Of course it's easier for them to deal and influence much smaller countries individually, like they do all over the world than a half-a-billion conglomerate.
When an individual country does something China doesn't like, China can limit its exports there. Sanchez is a moron when it comes to international politics, I don't know how he is internally.
1
Hendo524 days ago
+1
EU could gain strength by partnering with non European middle power democracies
1
shortyman9204 days ago
China isn’t openly threatening Europe because they want to own Europe
0
secret_squirrels_nut4 days ago
+1
EU and Canadas best bet would to be to funnel money into US politics and advertising and pray the US comes back to reality as a pro democracy pro western country. and Americans better pray that dems actually do something to reign in future the power of potential future trumps instead of doing nothing. China will absolutely f*** the EU. They play the long game very well.
1
reanima4 days ago
+1
Honestly all of these tariffs have amounted to a continuous monthly decline in the manufacturing sector. All those supposed manufacturing jobs arent coming. The entire american public has essentially paid for an extra tax on goods for absolutely nothing.
1
Uranophane4 days ago
-3
The only superpower is the United States.
-3
Alexexy4 days ago
-2
China enriching itself by participating in globalization and its economic domination.
Domination is what's happening in Iran and Ukraine, not when a country has the most intensive manufacturing network in the world by investing in itself.
-2
stdstaples4 days ago
+25
China has been planning around a more multipolar world order for years, both domestically and internationally.
You can debate the implications, but it’s hard to ignore that global power dynamics are shifting in a way that aligns with that outlook.
25
EdoOkati4 days ago
+60
Every country needs to look after their own interests instead of just blindly trusting A country imho, have relations with multiple countries.
60
Altruistic-Ad-4084 days ago
+27
Backing a country that is backing insecurity in Europe through Russia is not acting in its own interests. It is piggy backing on its alliances and not contributing.
But Spain is popular on Listnook for other stances, so anything it does gets praised.
27
TheBeninem4 days ago
+3
No the middle powers (e.g the EU, Canada, Australia, Japan, South Korea etc) need to work in unison if they are to stand up to the superpowers
3
Gengo07084 days ago
+142
Ask Ukrainians who are dying due to Chinese involvement in the war how they view China. This is just going to fracture EU even more.
142
Rubricity4 days ago
+93
They have complex view on China, because if you dig in data you will find out that China is still the undisputed top 1 trade partner of Ukraine.
Simple because EU cannot produce materials c**** enough so that Ukraine and Russia has to both source drone production from China, even if at this point the domestic drone production rate has scaled up. The key component like motors, remained deeply Chinese.
This is why Zelensky has avoided criticize China very harsh because despite clearly without China Russia cannot sustain this war, paradoxically Ukrainian also have to relied on China to sustain the war.
93
PumpProphet4 days ago
+26
Majority of the world plays this role. Most countries have no interest in western political wars. Just self-interest.
Even some EU members were still trading with Russia and buying their oil.
26
uswhole4 days ago
+4
iran iraq war moment...
4
Gengo07084 days ago
+1
Trade volume doesn’t matter when your countrymen, women, and children are dying. US has been China’s #1 trade partner for decades, no love lost between the 2 nations.
1
SpyFromMarsHXJD4 days ago
+22
What does Ukraine expect? China fucks up its entire energy supply by backing them?
22
DrunkensteinsMonster4 days ago
+2
They don’t *expect* that I’m sure but that doesn’t mean they’re going to be friendly with the state that’s funding invasion
2
SpyFromMarsHXJD4 days ago
+18
Then don’t buy drone parts from China then
18
AspectSpiritual91434 days ago
+3
Can start with stop buying parts from Chinese. Make them bankrupt.
3
rainbowyuc4 days ago
+5
Ukraine isn't part of the EU.
5
cultureicon4 days ago
+46
Its becoming clear how coddled Europe is. They have Ukraine fighting their war against Russia, and the mere thought of lifting a finger to protect a world order that Trump temporarily scrambled has them wanting to dissolve NATO and create a China/Iran/Russia world order. They can't even wait 7 months until Trump is a lame duck. Everything Biden and every other president has done for European security out the window. I was just talking to a guy from Finland on Listnook and he said "I look around and I don't see any war here". Yep because Ukraine is literally dying for you.
46
VirginiENT4204 days ago
-7
Trump is the one that wants to dissolve NATO not Europe
-7
BLACK_HALO_V104 days ago
+28
Trump doesn't want to dissolve NATO, he wants to pull from it. If the US pulling from NATO leads to it being dissolved because it can't stand on its own without being propped up by the US, then everything he complains about NATO is true. But Europe will continue to do nothing about it as usual until they're forced to.
28
Glugstar4 days ago
+1
The US has spent many decades making sure the European NATO members don't develop and buy weapons from their own markets, instead they had to buy from US suppliers. US was net profiting from this alliance on so many levels.
Another consideration is that just because NATO dies without US, doesn't mean the other members can't defend themselves using a differently structured, but similar alliance. And Europe is not doing nothing, they are literally creating these new alliances with similar members as we speak. Just because they are out of the media doesn't mean it isn't happening.
1
Acceptable_Noise6514 days ago
+2
Europe has only gotten its shit together because they have finally realized they have an existential threat at their door step. Trump wasn’t the first US president to chide EU countries to spend more on NATO, he’s only been the loudest.
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/natosource/obama-warns-nato-allies-to-share-defense-burden-we-can-t-do-it-alone/
2
cultureicon4 days ago
-3
Well he literally can't, Biden outlawed that and Congress won't do that. So other than that you have tarrifs that fell 90% on Americans and psycho tweets about Greenland. Any other major grievances to justify a China/Russia new world order?
-3
__Yakovlev__4 days ago
-9
>They can't even wait 7 months until Trump is a lame duck.
Typical American missing the point. It's not 7 more months and then everything can go back to normal. It's been going on for a decade already. And Europeans don't want an alliance where they rely on a partner that can completely change direction every 4 years.
Outside of Spain the EU seems to be focusing on themselves and their own rearmament. It's Spain that is sucking up to china and Iran, but then again they've always been a poor NATO and EU partner.
-9
cultureicon4 days ago
-1
NATO does almost nothing it's literally just a deterrent against Russia. Why would they care about politics in the US? It's illegal for the US to exit NATO. So long as the US is in it's 2x the deterrent to Russia. EU only caught up to total aide to Ukraine this year. So now that Europe has to pay it's not fun anymore? The answer is yes the EU citizens are pissed the US reduced payments for EU security.
-1
__Yakovlev__4 days ago
+4
It's absolutely amazing how much you're missing the point and intentionally misrepresenting what people are complaining about. Which in itself is a great example of why we're so done with the US.
And since you have trouble with reading. No, that does not mean sucking up to china (that's a spain thing) it means investing in European rearmament so become independent from the US. That's exactly what you wanted right? So why the f*** are you now complaining when that is happening?
Edit: lmao I looked up that claim about the Finnish guy you made earlier. You claimed that Finland was literally being invaded right now by Russia as a result of them joining NATO. To which his reply was "I don't see any war here". Nice job misrepresenting facts there kiddo. Enjoy your country testing itself apart, you miserable sack of shit, you are the perfect example of why we're choosing for our selves instead of relying on the US.
4
Fern-ando4 days ago
+10
Some of the parties in Sánchez government coalition have voted against condemning Russia in the European Parliament, tighten sanctions against Putin in Europe or granting Ukraine EU candidate status.
10
Electric4ce4 days ago
+2
Ask the Iranians how they are dying due to the Chinese
2
olafironfoot4 days ago
+2
China is selling mix used goods to both Ukraine and Russia. They don’t care who uses them. Wait till the robot wars go into full swing, the one who can buy most terminators win.
2
Lez0fire4 days ago
+3
Ask Ukranians who have been abandoned by the US since late 2024 and rely on european funding if they like the EU trying to survive and get away from the US? I think they do like it
3
komodo_lurker4 days ago
+1
To be fair, they are dying because of Russian aggression.
1
gayphilantropist4 days ago
+61
This isn't the dunk against the US you think it is. This fractures Europe more than it already is. Spain has been on an interesting kick lately with their lack of Ukraine support (don't show me the recent donation of Patriots, that's nothing) and not upholding their financing of Nato.
61
Lez0fire4 days ago
+33
Spain literally gave 1 billion euros to Ukraine like 3 weeks ago lol
33
gayphilantropist3 days ago
+1
The 1b consisted of the patriots in my comment. Their per capita 1.7-2.5 bn figure is incredibly low compared to other european nations. They pledged something like 0.1% of their GDP...
1
Rich-Employment78973 days ago
+1
Omg, so cool!
Its still pathetic lol
1
pleasereadthecomment4 days ago
-9
Place is currently being run by socialist lunatics (but they are popular because the pm is handsome and sticks the finger to Israel)
They are now in the process of creating difficult times. When said times come, they will wake up.
-9
Flametrox4 days ago
+6
I don’t have much knowledge on Spanish politics, but isn’t PSOE just a social democratic party despite it’s name?
6
Magnetronaap4 days ago
+4
Yes, the person you responded to is just spouting populist bullshit. Spain has a very regular government. Besides, even if they were socialist that wouldn't automatically mean they're lunatics.
4
Falitoty4 days ago
+1
No, they are lunatics because the goberment want to Stablish goberment agencies to deceid what is true and what isn't in Internet, and then force people to identify so they can pubish the people Who spread whathever the goberment deem to be misinformation.
1
gayphilantropist3 days ago
+1
As much as you get upvotes, socialism is going to be very popular when 25% of your young workforce chooses to stay unemployed and live with their parents.
1
Goosepond014 days ago
+27
Trying to buddy up with Russia didn't help, doing the same with the US has proven to be a disaster we are still trying to work through... so how about a 3rd authoritarian 'partner'
we need to be doing everything we can to keep authoritarians at arms length and instead to work with Europe and other democratic allies, yes we have a long way to go but the more time we spend going "we just don't have the manufacturing/resources/whatever" instead of trying to solve that issue the most time we spend giving money and influence to countries very much willing to stab us in the back the second it becomes beneficial for them
27
StockCasinoMember4 days ago
+42
The EU has achieved the greatest quality of life in human history under NATO and USA hegemony. That should not be so easily dismissed.
However, the lesson here should be that the middle countries should turn to each other(and self sufficiency) to balance against USA, Russia, and China.
42
MagoViejo4 days ago
+12
Like France , for example? Great pals, opening their networks for our trains , gas pipelines, bigger power grid integration with the rest of Europe...oh , wait. They don't.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a Federal Europe, reduced sovereign of the states , same rules in all the union. But if we are going to be bullied in the NATO by USA, stabbed in the back by France, get into troubles in the Gibraltar strait with UK... well , it pays to have some bussiness on the side.
12
Lez0fire4 days ago
+1
Exactly, we could bring gas to all Europe (gas we get from Argelia), but France doesnt let it go through its territory, it seems it'll have to go through Italy.
1
Ultra_Metal4 days ago
+33
Sanchez is a tankie b****** who should be removed from power.
33
rugby_hurries4 days ago
+12
First Germany, now Spain. It is starting to look like more EU countries are quietly deepening ties with China even though it doesn't align with United States interests.
12
PositiveUse4 days ago
+24
Germany has very very strong ties to china for at least two decades now.
24
DrawingDramatic16414 days ago
+4
all are trying indian way now
be friends with all but stand on their own
4
PositiveUse4 days ago
+24
Spain government is such a joke
24
NoFan78614 days ago
+6
If the Spanish government is a joke, the US government is a comedy club.
6
Kind_Silver_19214 days ago
+22
Spain is allying with China while they are helping murder Ukrainians.
22
Ok_Paramedic_92834 days ago
+2
It’s Europe who is killing the Ukraines by pushing them to fight a losing war. Ukraine is literally out of people (first young guys, then old guys, and now Ukraines abroad and probably women in the future ), and Europe is still sending them money and arms to keep the war alive.
Just surrender, give up Donbas, and admit it’s NATO expansion which was the root cause of the war.
Don’t be canon fodder for empire’s geopolitical game.
2
SpyFromMarsHXJD4 days ago
-13
So Ukraine lives are more valuable than Gaza kids
-13
PositiveUse4 days ago
+11
Spain is doing nothing for Gaza kids
11
Ok_Paramedic_92834 days ago
+2
Ukraine is supporting Israel in the meantime…
2
Lightrec4 days ago
+11
So Gaza kids are more important than Uyghur kids?
11
Ok_Paramedic_92834 days ago
Go educate yourself about how Uyghurs actually live in China. Don’t take your US/Israel propaganda as truth. The very same people who point finger at China are those who turn blind eye on Gaza.
0
GuaSukaStarfruit4 days ago
+6
Spain still has no backbones
6
oath2order4 days ago
+7
Spain has been one of the more vocal countries in Europe accusing Israel of committing genocide.
And now they're cozying up with China, who is actively committing genocide.
Curious.
7
CressCheap4 days ago
+10
Sanchez also cozies up with Erdogan which threatens Greece with military action every other day
10
TrygerWTF3 days ago
+1
Show any proof from the UN that China is doing that. Because the case of Israel is VERY clear, in China not so much.
1
teos614 days ago
+2
And that, my friends, is globalization
2
olafironfoot4 days ago
+1
That’s the reaction to “no more world police”.
1
Spain_iS_pain4 days ago
+2
This is the way. Good for Spain. Let USA sink in Iran and Germany sink in Russia. Those are not our wars or our interests.
2
zachxyz4 days ago
+2
You know what the Middle East needs? More meddling from outside countries. What could go wrong?
2
[deleted]4 days ago
+1
[deleted]
1
Upset-Somewhere30894 days ago
-4
From hating com*ies to giving them the world on a platter, I see so much winning.
-4
[deleted]4 days ago
+1
[deleted]
1
Upset-Somewhere30894 days ago
+1
They claim it is.
1
mbaucco4 days ago
+1
It's a crazy thought, but if all the "middle" economies would stand together, they could tell both the USA and China to go jump in a lake. Why does every country on this planet need a sugar daddy?
1
muttmunchies4 days ago
+1
Sigh
1
FelizIntrovertido4 days ago
+1
This is a wrong move as a valid response to an even more mistaken move from the US
1
ReallySubtle4 days ago
+1
I hate Sanchez so much
1
funderfulfellow4 days ago
-1
Spain is acting deeply suspicious.
-1
dxbhufflepuffle4 days ago
-5
This is really bad for Europe
-5
Nisiom4 days ago
-9
Definitely not ideal, but as things stand right now China is more reliable as a trading partner than the US, which has gone totally insane.
It's safer to deal witn a somewhat evil regime than with a complete madman.
-9
Khaganate234 days ago
-1
>somewhat evil regime
Are we being fr?
Bots need a better line.
-1
Nisiom4 days ago
+2
If you think I'm a bot, your senses are pretty off.
China, as fucked up as it might be, isn't threatening to invade a european territory every fortnight and isn't randomly imposing insane tariffs on trade via a social media rant.
Regardless of how far removed we are politically and ideologically from China, from a purely pragmatic trading perspective, they appear safer than the US, at least until that orange piece of shit is kicked out of the White House.
2
Superest224 days ago
-4
Hmmm. Not cool Spain.
All for you not backing the US and Israel and calling them out on the shit fight in the MER. But this ain’t it.
-4
Richardogod4 days ago
-50
Sanchez is now cooperating with china on developing military tech to send to Iran which is going to be killing brainless American troops.
Maybe trump should've watched his mouth when he threatened European sovereignty. Spain is not a mickey mouse.
-50
plsbeagoodneighbor4 days ago
+27
Spain is a beautiful country with incredible culture and people.
They are an absolute middling power with modest global relevance, and unfortunately yes they are a Mickey Mouse on the international stage.
141 Comments