Three so-called ISIS brides expected to be charged after arriving back in Australia from Syria. Two of the women will be charged with slavery offences.
You know you fucked up when they get out the 19th century laws...
797
PaulTroon26 days ago
+412
Got to be really bad that prison in Australia is a better life than in Syria with children.
There was an article a few years ago bout an American in the same situation and the only thing I remember was she was like 26 years old and already a widow twice over. There is justice in this world.
412
iondubh6 days ago
+269
Most of the time these women are stuck in displacement camps with shortages of food, shelter and medicine, as well as rampant spread of disease and gangs of ISIS loyalists that can be violent to women considering defecting. Prison in Australia is likely to be safer, more comfortable and better fed, and also ensures their children will be safe and that any family that still want to be in contact can visit them. I'm glad for the children's sake that this option is available to them.
269
Prestigious_Task71756 days ago
+219
> I'm glad for the children's sake that this option is available to them.
Eh.. don't have too much hopes up, the videos that came out of those camps already showed up the children had been totally brainwashed into the ISIS ideology since birth, it will be extremely difficult to get them out of that stuff.. if its even possible.
219
PM_ME_HOTDADS5 days ago
+15
lmao children can easily be deprogrammed, holy shit. you really think every kid that was ever a member of a cult should just be written off?
15
Electronic-Stick-1614 days ago
+8
You think the environment that produced their mothers are likely to fix them?
8
FuckboySeptimReborn4 days ago
+14
Australia recently had a case of ISIS kids luring & attempting to murder a gay teenager for their religion. We don’t need more of them.
14
Prestigious_Task71755 days ago
+5
Well, we will have to see, we know of many, many of the ISIS brides who in the end came back to their nations and didn't learn a thing, many still remaining with their views intact that they did "nothing wrong", and between those who said they had learned they lesson it would eventually come out in same that they were lying.
It's going to take a very high amount of resources and care to deprogram the children, far more than what the state can offer, this cases are far worse than those about regular personality cults, these children were indoctrinated since birth to not only obey, but also to kill.
5
PM_ME_HOTDADS5 days ago
+4
Children are probably the easiest minds to re-shape, if you reach them young enough and stay consistent with it.
Anybody *can* change. It's up to the state to actually provide those resources though. Which is probably expensive. So treating them like irredeemable monsters doesn't help, I think.
4
snailbot-jq4 days ago
+5
Exactly. If you give some 16 year old once-a-week lessons for a few months and then let them off, of course that wouldn’t work. If you do proper intensive behavioral support for say, a 6 year old, that would very much work.
In Singapore, radicalized teenagers enter a government-mandated live-in program that includes support by local religious community leaders. They need deprogramming yes, but it is even more effective with mentors and elders they can respect. This program can last a few years.
5
iondubh6 days ago
-32
They are children. However they have been radicalized, they deserve to be safe, warm, fed. If people can recover from cults and defectors can break from life-long political conditioning, then... 🤷♀️ Regardless of the beliefs promulgated around them in the early years of their lives, they deserve the chance to live better.
-32
Royal_Airport79405 days ago
+67
We appreciate your qualified insights.
I recommend safeguards and provisions.
67
trentgibbo5 days ago
-21
Can't beleive how many down votes you've gotten. That people think it's OK to punish children for their parent's decisions is heartbreaking.
-21
Just_trying_it_out5 days ago
+18
Probably because you and the comment you are responding to seem to be both misunderstanding someone saying the odds of them coming out of it aren’t great as just “punish the children for their parents decisions” lol
18
trentgibbo5 days ago
-6
I understood it. The implication of the statement is basically "why bother?"
-6
1manparty5 days ago
+8
So open your doors to them? Write a letter and offer them a place to stay. One of those kids was photographed holding a severed human head and smiling for his dad. All yours, bleeding heart.
8
iondubh5 days ago
-3
It's honestly amazing that you somehow view yourself as the victim of that image, rather than the child forced to hold a severed head. Victim complexes gotta complex, I guess.
-3
trentgibbo4 days ago
Yet again, you seem to think that a child had any say in this. By your logic, if I come over to your house, put a gun to your head and make you do bad things on camera, you would be the one punished.
0
UseBackground23705 days ago
+44
> ISIS loyalists that ~~can be~~ (are) violent to women ~~considering defecting.~~
FIFY
44
Extension-Toe-70276 days ago
-55
The next thing is going to be placing this kids in the school system. If there was ever a good reason to do home schooling this is it.
-55
Bon3rBitingBastard5 days ago
+6
They are how they are because of home schooling.
6
Extension-Toe-70275 days ago
+2
It's all fun and games until you start asking the locals with kids if they want the new arrivals in the same class room. One thing that I learned in German sublistnook is that parents that 10 years ago were 100% with Merkel, are now registering their kids as living with their grandparents, changing address, or going in to debt to afford private school.
2
MercantileReptile6 days ago
+169
> [...] the 53-year-old woman is expected to be charged overnight with four offences including crimes against humanity enslavement, crimes against humanity possess a slave, crimes against humanity use a slave, crimes against humanity engage in slave trade.
Four different charges is quite meaty for (in essence) a single offence, slavery. In this case though, good.
>“These offences **each** carry a maximum penalty of 25 years’ imprisonment,” [...]
Emphasis mine. Hopefully multiple charges stick, making sure at least the older one will never be free again. Would be rather fitting, given the specific crime.
Governments can't be too harsh when dealing with these people. So often certain line of argumentation try the old "they've been brainwasged by the culture, pressured by the husband" and similar excuses. Screw that. Slavers have no place in Society, end of story.
169
Serafita6 days ago
+53
I bet the sentences will all run concurrently (all at same time) rather than consecutively (one after the other)
53
Muted-Touch-56765 days ago
+12
Unfortunately, should be consecutively
12
Optimal_Juggernaut375 days ago
+26
> “These offences each carry a maximum penalty of 25 years’ imprisonment,”
What is their minimum penalty though? The Australian judicial system is a f****** joke when it comes to the old slap on the wrist
26
FuckboySeptimReborn4 days ago
+3
Unless you’re trying to uncover war crimes. Then it’s a closed trial & life imprisonment.
3
Optimal_Juggernaut374 days ago
+3
Who was that?
If you are referring to David McBride, he got sentenced to 5 years 8 months.
3
ZetaSagittariii6 days ago
-16
I agree entirely but I also want to include another category of people that are not worthy of existence
I withhold the right to determine this category at a future date
-16
thoughtforce5 days ago
+78
Groups of supporters came out to meet them at the airport. All those people should be detained and if they're immigrant deported. They don't deserve to live in a country like Australia.
78
VariolaMajor926 days ago
+120
Why are they back? Ship them back to Syria so they can live the life they chose
120
Prasiatko6 days ago
+97
Because Syria extradites criminals that come to their country from other countries
97
WarCash2756 days ago
+63
Because Syria never managed the IDP camps, the Kurds did. Now that Assad is out the Kurds can no longer afford to manage camp security. Either countries repatriate their citizens or there will be a transient and unmonitored population with ISIS ideology and freedom of movement
63
Maxy23885 days ago
+50
Because they are still Australian citizens and they never had Syrian citizenship so it would be illegal under international law for the government to strip them of their citizenship, deport them or block them from returning to Australia.
The best the government can do is not aid them in their efforts to return (which it’s doing), arrest and charge them the second they return to the country and then try and rehabilitate/reeducate their children out of any terrorist ideology.
50
Total_Rules5 days ago
+18
The UK did this to one of the ISIS brides. Stripped her of her citizenship and left her stateless in a Syrian refugee camp.
18
penguin_on_stilts5 days ago
+16
They're Australian citizens. They have a right to be here in Australia, period.
Hopefully they exercise that right in prison.
16
Pubs015 days ago
-2
huh. interesting that Australia doesnt strip citizenship for these women immediately.
-2
Runazeeri5 days ago
+23
I don’t think you can make someone stateless under international law. If they had a secondary citizenship they probably would strip Australia citizenship.
Googling it Aus has revoked almost 60 people citizenships but you have to be a dual national for it.
23
penguin_on_stilts5 days ago
+10
If they were naturalised and had another citizenship that's one thing, but that isn't the case here.
Even the extreme of complete treason like attempting a coup doesn't, and shouldn't, lose you your citizenship if you are a born citizen. Life in prison? Yes.
10
uf5izxZEIW5 days ago
+9
Because stripping citizenship off felons in a country founded by felons shipped off by Britain surely won't be ironic
9
ezagreb6 days ago
+211
Why let them back in the country? It’s hard to see how they’re going to contribute in any productive way
211
random201908266 days ago
+264
If they are Australian citizens, they have to be let back in. But they are accused criminals who will be arrested and tried for those crimes. If they are found guilty, they will be punished accordingly.
264
nevaraon6 days ago
+121
Criminals going to Australia, kinda back to basics huh?!
121
4us76 days ago
-58
The government can change laws to not determine them to be Australian citizens since they defected to a power hostile to Australia. Sure, that would make them stateless and be against established human rights convention but it isnt like Australia havent done that before with offshore processing of asylum seekers and so on.
-58
Wyrmnax6 days ago
+58
Terrible precedent.
Imagine you get someone power hungry in power. And he starts using it to strip citizenship of any detractor of his government, or people that are running against him.
No, removing citizenship of someone is a shitstorm waiting to happen.
58
FeuerroteZora5 days ago
+6
This happened to UK citizen Shamima Begum, there's a great BBC podcast on her story, basically she went to Syria to join/marry ISIS, and her British citizenship was revoked. Worth checking out if you're interested in these issues. (The last news on her, in 2024, was that she was still living in a Syrian camp.)
6
MulanMcNugget5 days ago
+6
She was a dual national no?
6
FeuerroteZora5 days ago
+5
That's one of the points of contention. The British govt argues that she has Bangladeshi citizenship, which is why they can revoke her citizenship without running afoul of international law. (It'd be illegal, under international law, if it made her stateless.)
But Bangladesh said that she did not have Bangladeshi citizenship at that time. Her parents emigrated from Bangladesh so it seems she would be *eligible* for citizenship there, but it wasn't automatically granted, she'd need to apply for it.
That was close enough for British courts, and her British citizenship has been revoked since 2019.
She's been living in a refugee camp since then so I doubt she's had a chance to apply for Bangladeshi citizenship - and since it's unlikely Bangladesh is gonna go out of their way to make that happen, and I don't see an easy way for her to get to a consulate, it seems like she's technically stateless, sort of, more or less.
She's also married to an IS fighter with a Dutch passport, so she's suggested she might apply for Dutch citizenship, but it's unclear if her marriage would be accepted by Dutch courts as she was underage at the time. I doubt it would be a smooth process either way.
5
random201908266 days ago
+41
That would be a very bad precedent to strip someone of citizenship. The slippery slope argument is that an authoritarian government can do it to anyone they don't like.
(Source: I was born in China, but wasn't born a Chinese citizen even though both my parents and my sister were Chinese. The reason was the one child policy. Do you not see the problem here?)
41
wtkillabz5 days ago
+3
So how did that work for you? Not trying to be rude just genuinely curious how you and your family navigated that?
3
random201908265 days ago
+4
They paid a fine and I became a citizen (was issued documents). Immigrated to Canada, became a Canadian citizen, technically lost Chinese citizenship, but kept the documents anyway.
4
D4ltaOne6 days ago
+8
Ya know, 5 years ago i wouldve dismissed this slippery slope argument as a non-issue. I was very wrong...
8
Young_Lochinvar5 days ago
+4
Because of quirks of the Australian Constitution, the Australian Government cannot easily create new processes for stripping citizenship.
4
Expert-Ad87845 days ago
+3
But Asylum seekers aren't Australian. These people are.
3
Historyandwow6 days ago
+93
Ultimately theyre our citizens and our responsibility. Also barring australian citizens from re entering the country sets a terrible precedent. This instance may feel clear cut but what if in future it isn’t, and Australia denied re entry for an ultimately innocent person based on vibes/public sentiment etc
93
JustHereForTheMemes6 days ago
+153
In Australia the government can't just ignore the law when it wants to do so.
153
ezagreb6 days ago
-28
Seems like a national security risk
-28
Zakath_6 days ago
+89
I believe Australia has signed the Declaration of Human Rights, and I think it's article 15 that guarantees everyone a right to a citizenship. You cannot revoke someone's last citizenship and make them stateless.
89
Young_Lochinvar6 days ago
+19
Not so fun-fact, the Declaration is not actually binding international law. It’s more of a list of aspirations.
The relevant international law in these matters is the *Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness*.
19
4us76 days ago
+4
Contravening the declaration is essentially irrelevant other than getting called out by UNHCR and so on. We contravened UNHCR on many occasions since national law trumps international signatories.
4
10001110101balls6 days ago
+25
Can Australia not handle hosting a couple of middle aged women who are Australian citizens in their prisons?
25
BestFriendWatermelon6 days ago
+12
Right??? Every time this debate comes up, the idea of a western country dealing with its own worst citizens rather than dumping the problem on another country is treated as total capitulation to handwringing lefties.
Let them back in the country, and then lock 'em up for a long long time.
12
Kdave216 days ago
+1
[ Removed by Listnook ]
1
Young_Lochinvar6 days ago
+2
The Australian Security Intelligence Organisation (ASIO) and the Australian Federal Police (AFP) - which are very roughly Australia’s CIA and FBI equivalents - have both said that the risk is manageable.
2
Anxious_Ad9366 days ago
+22
They're citizens and we can't legally stop citizens from returning, and it's illegal in Aus to render them stateless I think is the gist
22
firechaox6 days ago
+35
Because Australia raised these monsters, so it should be their responsibility to lock them up and not Syria’s?
35
RJWalker6 days ago
+10
Because Syria shouldn’t have to deal with this. They’re Australian citizens. It’s Australia’s responsibility, including any and all costs involved.
10
Poezenlover6 days ago
+29
Because Australia follows international law.
29
Independent_Row_2246 days ago
-31
There’s no such thing as international law. All a country has to do is withdraw from a declaration/treaty and that’s it. There’s no one to enforce anything.
-31
10001110101balls6 days ago
+21
Just because a policy is enforced by voluntary consensus (short of war or sanctions) doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Australia benefits from participating in a system of international law that serves their political interests, especially with how dependent their economy is on resource extraction and exports.
21
Ecstatic_Dirt8526 days ago
+19
There's no authoritative enforcement, but there's plenty of bilateral consequences that encourage following the international laws that are considered important
19
Independent_Row_2246 days ago
-16
That could be for smaller or medium sized countries. But any large country like the US or China can shrug it off with zero consequences, even countries like Japan or Brazil, especially for arguably vague human rights declarations.
-16
MexicanEssay6 days ago
+8
Definitely not **zero** consequences. There are watchdog organizations keeping an eye on how countries behave in this regard and rating them accordingly. Countries who could be potential partners and companies who may have invested in your country may instead avoid you if your rating isn't high enough. You can also scare away tourism.
8
Ecstatic_Dirt8526 days ago
+8
Leaving people stateless is not a vague human rights issue. It clashes with the absolute authority of nations. You open the gate for more sovereign citizen and similar stuff. No nation wants that and therefore can't allow the idea of statelessness to be even considered.
8
Poezenlover6 days ago
+7
Have you seen the diplomatic fallout the U.S. has with their "closest ally" E.U.?
7
Jerico_Hill5 days ago
+3
Because it's not Syria's or the Kurd's job to deal with these people. They were radicalised at home, their own countries are responsible for them.
3
Aksds6 days ago
+4
They are citizens, it would be worse if Australia refused its own citizens
4
PiggleWork6 days ago
-22
because diversity is our strength.
-22
COMMANDEREDH5 days ago
+3
Having actual terrorists as a part of our country doesn't make a stronger country. Diversity isn't always better.
3
JMMSpartan916 days ago
-11
I mean it is a prison colony, letting criminals in is kind of Australia's thing.
That time period is relevant to this conversation with which laws being used right? Lol
-11
BathFullOfDucks6 days ago
+36
Imagine going to fight in Syria and finding out *not* joining the Al Qaeda affiliated group turned out to be the choice that gets you in trouble...
36
Frasine6 days ago
+51
The Al Qaeda breakaway group, because Al Qaeda was deemed too moderate by ISIS themselves.
51
Bon3rBitingBastard5 days ago
+3
I beleive they are referring to the current Syrian head of state and the fact that his group were affiliated with AQ, while the non affiliated group (ISIS) is what ended up being the issue for these people and their clcurremt circumstances
3
Norzon242 days ago
+3
Imagine getting deported by former Al Qaeda for terrorism
3
amberlc0026 days ago
+33
What did they do to get the slavery charges?
33
Sunlit536 days ago
+153
A lot of non muslim women were kidnapped and enslaved as domestic labour and sex slaves. The official first wife of a militant had status over slaves n her household and could punish them or kill them at will. There have been several trials along these lines.
[https://globalnews.ca/news/4798651/isis-slave-death-germany/](https://globalnews.ca/news/4798651/isis-slave-death-germany/)
153
HistoryBuff6786 days ago
+83
Children were also enslaved. The podcast I am Not A Monster covers this.
Even though the 3 enslaved people (two young women and a little boy) all had good things to say about this ISIS wife, it did not matter. She participated in slavery and she got charged.
83
JuDracus5 days ago
+15
Also, to add to what Sunlit53 said, a few of said enslaved women as well as others from the enthnic groups that were enslaved like the Yazidis came to Australia as refugees.
15
Dixiehusker6 days ago
+29
Slavery
29
SnooOpinions87905 days ago
+11
Slavery. They did slavery. The most blatant obvious and nasty slavery of the modern world.
Also when it was clear they faced defeat there were attempts to systematically kill the slaves so there would not be surviving witnesses. Hence it's often hard to prosecute the crimes to normal Western standards of evidence
Look up the Yezidi who were the most prominent (but not sole) victims
11
Odlemart6 days ago
+29
Ah yes, the precursor to today's "trad wives".
29
Remote-Resolve97976 days ago
+13
Why even let them back in? What a waste
13
Aksds6 days ago
+52
These women are citizens of Australia, we have to let them in, but since they broke laws… jail
52
mikeesq226 days ago
+12
Not sure about Australian law, but can't they be stripped of citizenship as enemies of the state? I think leaving your country to join a terrioist group that hates any western society would qualify. Isn't there a British national that is in a similar position still stuck in Syria?
12
Prasiatko6 days ago
+38
That's only because the British claimed she was a Bangladeshi citizen amd thus there problem. You can't make someone stateless under international law to stop e.g. The UK putting all its thieves on a plane to Australia then stripping their citizenship once it landed to leave it as Australia's problem.
38
Xanderfanboi5 days ago
+14
Syria doesn’t want them, they are Australian and thus Australia has to deal with them.
14
Maxy23885 days ago
+9
You can’t strip someone of their last citizenship it’s a human rights violation, and since they can’t be stripped of Australian citizenship the government can’t prevent them from returning the only option is to arrest them when they arrive
9
Jerico_Hill5 days ago
+5
Why should these people be left for Syria to deal with? They were radicalised at home, their home country should deal with them.
5
Remote-Resolve97976 days ago
-19
Are they actual citizens or naturalized?
-19
Aksds6 days ago
+29
As far as I’m aware, born here in Australia, so “actual” citizens, naturalised citizens are still “actual” citizens
29
D4ltaOne6 days ago
+10
Kind of an on the moment-thought, i didnt think this through:
Isnt distinguishing between naturalised citizens and non-naturalised citizens a fascism thing? The only reason to distinguish that i kind think of right now is if someone wants to study and/or solve socio-economic problems
10
Eve_warlock6 days ago
+4
You are responding to someone who spelt the word naturalised with a "z"
4
Eve_warlock6 days ago
+4
Excuse me? What do you mean by this comment?
I'm pretty sure I've been Australian for a lot longer than you have been alive! I am naturalised! So f you for trying to distinguish between the two!
Edit: also naturalised is spelt without the "z" you bot mf
4
[deleted]6 days ago
-4
[removed]
-4
ButterflyDestiny6 days ago
+2
Englighten me someone: whats with the slavery charges?
2
Muzorra5 days ago
+46
Yazidis and other groups were captured and used as servants by IS 'citizens'. They were often mistreated and even killed. Some ex-brides have told stories that they got one whether they wanted one or not, that their husbands used them for sex against their will and they knew of other brides who fully endorsed the practice ruling over many slaves, trading them among the 'elite' etc.
46
JuDracus5 days ago
+14
Slaves not servants.
14
Muzorra5 days ago
+4
I assumed the slavery bit was implied.
4
danisindeedfat5 days ago
-7
I don’t know about this. The article is heavy on charges and light on details. Is this a more famous cause in Australia that I’m not aware of?
-7
ShadowPhynix5 days ago
+6
Given this only \*just\* happened, why would there be more than charges?
6
danisindeedfat5 days ago
-9
I gotchu, Muslims bad unless the us is bombing them lol
-9
Multimarkboy4 days ago
+2
brother you need to read up on isis brides and the fact that they have actual slaves that the 'wife' of the household 'rules' over.
2
prosecutor_mom4 days ago
+3
The article mentioned 32 year old, and, a ten year investigation. There were some internationally known instances of young women being manipulated into believing they'd be wanted and loved by isis fighters, 2000-2010'ish. There were updates on a few of them, for a bit, and if I recall correctly those that survived the first year desperately wanted to return home with child(ren). Can't tell if any of these adults or kids might be related to that?
3
Flaky_Bet_14324 days ago
-4
Wait, they basically sold themselves into a slavery and now they're getting punished for it after being free'd at least physically?
How does this work?
-4
zee-bra4 days ago
+9
They were not slaves. They are being punished because they supported a terrorist organisation, who had actual slaves, crimes against humanity etc. These women are not innocent
9
Nathan-Stubblefield5 days ago
-33
Please explain how being a bride made them enslavers.
-33
Duff5OOO5 days ago
+23
>Please explain how being a bride made them enslavers.
WTF?
It didn't.
Thats like getting a speeding fine and then asking why being married got you a speeding fine.
The slavery charge is unsurprisingly for having slaves.
23
ShadowPhynix5 days ago
+14
Being married made them a bride.
Owning slaves made them enslavers.
This isn’t complicated.
14
Nathan-Stubblefield5 days ago
-1
It is “complicated” when the article contained not one word about the enslavement other than that they were charged with it. Who, where, when.
119 Comments