ListNook

i_am_not_sam Nov 30, 2016 +6211

* Can any admin edit a comment/post? How would we know? * Has this ever happened before? * Are there any clear cut policies for what constitutes a ban-worthy offense for a sub-listnook? edit: (from me, not /u/spez. Really) I'm glad you saw it to apologize. I was in the "so f****** what"/"it was just a small edit" camp but I can see why some people would be so angry about it. It was poor judgement and you put yourself in a lose-lose situation. That said, most of us will still use the site as before because I honestly can't think of any other content aggregator like this one. I'm also glad you guys finally got around to implementing the sub-listnook blocking feature. I'd done that with RES a long time and I truly didn't understand why people were so bent out of shape over /r/the_donald. If the charges about "doxxing, harassment" etc. are true (and I can see it happening) then the questions to ask are * is the sub responsible for it? If yes, then what do listnook's policies say about this behavior? * if the sub isn't responsible then how are you * evaluating the truth in this accusation * taking action to protect listnook from other websites and social media * planning to prevent something like this (power user getting harassed to the point of doing something extremely silly/unprofessional) from every happening again?

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spez Nov 30, 2016 +6022

> Can any admin edit a comment/post? How would we know? No. Only engineers with access to production data, and that is being limited. > Has this ever happened before? In 2009 I replaced the word "fag" with "fog". Over the years I have fixed typos in titles when people ask since we don't allow title editing by default. This whole experience has been pretty painful. Even with the best of intentions, I (we) won't do this again. > Are there any clear cut policies for what constitutes a ban-worthy offense for a sub-listnook? The clear cut policies are in our [Content Policy](https://www.listnook.com/help/contentpolicy).

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Jaciola Nov 30, 2016 +5158

>Over the years I have fixed typos in titles when people ask since we don't allow title editing by default. Question for you. I understand the reason for not editing titles is to not have people create popular posts and then change the title to something inflammatory. However, why not allow a small 5 minute window to change the title? It shouldn't be long enough to blow up but may be long enough to help prevent a typo

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spez Nov 30, 2016 +12700

> However, why not allow a small 5 minute window to change the title? It shouldn't be long enough to blow up but may be long enough to help prevent a typo Totally reasonable.

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SupDos Nov 30, 2016 +3638

It's probably best being ~~2~~ 3 minutes, which is the same amount of time where you can edit a comment without it showing as edited But yeah, it's a good idea having a window for when you make some silly grammar mistakes in the title of your post, instead of having to edit your post comment saying "It was meant to say fog not fag!"

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raldi Nov 30, 2016 +1921

> It's probably best being 3 minutes, which is the same amount of time where you can edit a comment without it showing as edited FYI, I remember the day that happened. /u/ketralnis said, "I'm going to make it so you don't get a star for the first... I dunno, two minutes?" I said, "Sure. No wait, how about three?" He said, "Whatever, fine, just approve my checkin so I can get this done." In other words, current admins, feel free to change it; it didn't exactly come down the mountain on stone tablets.

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NapsandMikeNapoli Nov 30, 2016 +519

Its so fun seeing behind the Wizard's curtain, so to speak. Are there many other foundational Listnook characteristics(?) that were developed spur of the moment-ly like that one?

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raldi Dec 1, 2016 +858

I wouldn't call it foundational, since the site was already almost five years old, but one day I needed a tiny logo for a new feature I was writing. Back then, there was a volunteer friend-of-the-site who made a lot of listnook's graphics circa 2009-2011 (including most of the award icons), and she rushed this "[quick little icon](http://i.imgur.com/mqqNslR.png)" out for us. I loved the shape but the colors and antialiasing looked a little funny when I loaded it up in context on my test instance, so I spent a couple minutes in Gimp tweaking a few pixels and adding some blue, and yada yada yada, now Pinterest makes [these greeting cards](https://www.google.com/search?q=cakeday&safe=off&espv=2&biw=1266&bih=657&site=webhp&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjYsdXR19HQAhXqyVQKHbiSBUsQ_AUIBigB#safe=off&tbm=isch&q=listnook+cakeday&imgrc=cn-dlIw7zCOu8M%3A).

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glitchn Nov 30, 2016 +11

Probably most of listnook back in the day was developed that way. When a team is small like that, it's easy to be super productive when you don't have to over-design and document every feature being created.

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positive_electron42 Dec 1, 2016 +174

If only the world knew that this is actually how a lot of software decisions are made.

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corylulu Nov 30, 2016 +111

Yeah, but unlike comments, titles will only be editable within that window, so might wanna give a bit more wiggle room. Sometimes it can take a few minutes to realize a mistake or maybe something important changes on the article itself. I think a 5-15 minute window is reasonable. Either that, or make title edits require mod approval after the 3 minute mark, but can be done at any time. Would actually be super useful for mods that have to take down posts because the title needs to be changed based on new information in regards to "breaking" news.

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Sconely Nov 30, 2016 +578

That's really all people are clamoring for - 5 minutes would be great. Too much time means it can be abused, but no time at all means having to delete threads or endure typos needlessly. It's like when Gmail added the option to delay sending messages by 30 seconds, to give me time to catch my errors and fix them. Small change with a HUGE benefit.

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AustinYQM Nov 30, 2016 +120

shame aspiring public aloof toothbrush hard-to-find abundant puzzled reply future *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*

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Sconely Nov 30, 2016 +67

I would gladly donate if someone were to set something up to reward the people who came up with and implemented the warning for when you say the word attach but do not have an attachment. Unsung heroes of the modern era.

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issius Nov 30, 2016 +78

They are rewarded with salaries and jobs at Google. Probably pretty good salaries.

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[deleted] Nov 30, 2016 +23

[deleted]

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Cleyra Nov 30, 2016 +95

I moderate /r/MCServers which has very strict (yet neccesary) title formatting requirements with a lot of funky syntax stuff. My community often gets frustrated about having to repost several times for making small mistakes in their titles, so it'd be lovely if there was a way that they could make a quick edit as seen fit by our AutoModerator rules.

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[deleted] Nov 30, 2016 +429

It could cause problems with sublistnooks that require certain information in titles. One of my sublistnooks requires tags like [PICTURE] and has automoderator check for one. If you do let people change titles, please let moderators disable the feature on their sublistnooks. E: Okay, okay. I get it: set up automod to recheck.

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cwg930 Nov 30, 2016 +62

What if automod just waits until the grace period is over before checking? Then users that make a mistake and fix it can add any missing tags or whatever. It would probably even be possible for automod to add 2 checks, one at post creation that pm's the user about an incorrect title so they can fix it, and a second after the grace period to confirm the title has been fixed or delete if not.

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[deleted] Nov 30, 2016 +57

Subs like that would be great for title editing. You wouldn't have to delete and resubmit your post if you forgot to read the labyrinth of formatting guidelines

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pinkbutterfly1 Nov 30, 2016 +87

No. Have automoderator recheck after edits, exactly the same as it does already for posts.

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meshugga Nov 30, 2016 +197

...oooor you just amend the bot with the functionality to re-check on update ;)

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[deleted] Nov 30, 2016 +100

Automod already has the ability to check a post/comment if it's been edited.

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white_eye Nov 30, 2016 +87

It could be better if OP could suggest a title change and a mod has to approve it, so that way sublistnooks' with content rules in posts will be safe, but only OP can decide to change the post.

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[deleted] Nov 30, 2016 +1618

[deleted]

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[deleted] Nov 30, 2016 +483

As an engineer the only thing I disliked about the whole incident was the lack of audit ability and notification. Notifying the user than their comment was edited is one way to go; this is essentially the same as deleting someone's comment. If a comment is modified, there should be some audit log that is accessible to other engineers in the company and create an automated notification to someone. If other admins had come in and said "Yeah I got notified that /u/spez edited a comment and almost fell out of my chair laughing" I would have been very happy. I totally see why you did what you did. I've started used the Apple news c*** on my phone for real news for crying out loud. Let's make Listnook Great Again!

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wang_li Nov 30, 2016 +19

> If other admins had come in and said "Yeah I got notified that /u/spez edited a comment and almost fell out of my chair laughing" I would have been very happy. It's more than an audit trail. You can't have trust and have people changing the content of other people's comments. There is reputation (not karma, but literally people recognizing others' usernames) and if some ops level listnook staff started changing their comments you could cause a fair amount of problems for a person. E.g. Violentacrez could reasonably claim not to be the perpetrator of his bullshit.

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[deleted] Nov 30, 2016 +9

I agree. Ideally you just don't want anything to be editable by a second person. But in case someone does circumvent the system, I expect a website this large to have audit trails and clear protocols for creating visibility so it is very difficult to accomplish this without multiple people on board. It is actually not scary to me that /u/spez did this but rather than pretty much anyone could do it without anyone noticing.

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semteXKG Nov 30, 2016 +74

At the end of the day someone has the root password and that someone can edit the database. even if you build in audit functions (on whatever level) i can disable auditing. i'm f****** root. the only thing you would notice would be the lack of an audit log. building systems with no one in absolute power is hard...

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azthal Nov 30, 2016 +22

It is possible though. There are several logging solutions on the market that does just this. Sure, you can always disable logging, but then there's a log of you disabling logging. The logs themselves can not be deleted, beyond corrupting the whole log database or physically destroying the evidence, which in itself obviously is a preeeetty big clue that someone fiddled with something. It's far from an impossible challenge. Just cost some money. It's not even that much money for an Enterprise to be completely honest, but I also haven't got a clue how much of a profit Listnook makes. Pocket change for one company is unreachable for others.

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Georgy_K_Zhukov Nov 30, 2016 +882

> The clear cut policies are in our Content Policy. That isn't actually an answer. A fellow moderator recently recieved literally dozens of private messages recently which can be summed up as a violent dismemberment and cannibalism fantasy. He dutifully reported it to the Admins to be told that it hadn't crossed the line. Please, can you tell me where the line is? Because that seems pretty f****** clear cut, yet apparently it isn't.

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voice-of-hermes Nov 30, 2016 +25

Agreed. I mean, here are some that aren't even in IM; they are public: [The rogues gallery: Lesser known liberals](https://np.listnook.com/r/leftwithsharpedge/comments/4sn56f/the_rogues_gallery_lesser_known_liberals/) - in which several users of another sub (/r/anarchism) were pinged and intimidated. Several moderators participated in that thread, including their current (and also then) top moderator nowaydaddioh. I know that thread was reported several times to the admins, with no result whatsoever. If *that* isn't a clear example of *"Threatens, harasses, or bullies*" and even *"Encourages or incites violence"*.... Any insights as to why such abusive moderators and subs are allowed to continue functioning, /u/spez?

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CisWhiteMealWorm Nov 30, 2016 +290

I agree with this, as well. It seems like the rules aren't being enforced in fair or equal manners. I reported to the mods *and* admins of a comment that was blatantly advocating for political violence, and I don't mean, "We need to start a revolution! Be active!" I mean an actual threat that encouraged the death of someone. I waited a week or two, checked again, and the comment was still there. Haven't checked lately so maybe it just took them a few weeks to do something about it. Edit: Oh, great. [Edit 2: was being down-voted, I forgot that Listnook was the place of tolerant and loving folk who condemn violence.] Edit 3: Oh and want to know a joke? /r/politics actually banned me for a week because my username was "hate speech." That's seriously the only reason, and I politely asked the mods about it and got muted.

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illradhab Nov 30, 2016 +37

Was that the comment regarding a Canadian politician? Because I've seen a comment like that before, not taken down. Ugh.

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CisWhiteMealWorm Nov 30, 2016 +92

No, it was of a U.S. politician. To be fair, I've lost the comment and can't check whether or not it's still there. But I waited a bit over a week after reporting to both the community's mods and the admins, still was up. I said f*** it and reported it to the FBI anyways. Most likely nothing would come of it, but they take those threats *very* seriously. Figured that if Listnook didn't want to remove it, that's on them. Editing for those who can't understand, here's my comment in response to the people saying, "LOLOLOLOL THE FBI WILL JUST LAUGH AT IT": >Threatening a presidential candidate is a [federal crime] (http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/41/879) and I can guarantee you that they [the FBI] will at least look into it. Never said whoever made those threats is going to be arrested after a phone-tap and SWAT raid. >https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/news/stories/2009/june/tips_062609

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SilentJode Nov 30, 2016 +53

While that definitely calls for bans against the users PMing him, it doesn't necessarily mean that the sublistnook they claim to represent should also be banned. I think the general rule should be this: sublistnooks should only be banned when they are used to coordinate harassment with the consent (silent or otherwise) of the mods. I'm not well informed enough to say whether or not r/The_Donald meets this description, but in general we shouldn't ban subs just because a lot of bad apples frequent them.

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Georgy_K_Zhukov Nov 30, 2016 +76

Yes. I'm speaking about the lack of clarity on the Content Policy broadly, not just its application to sublistnooks specifically. While the initial question pertained to the banning of sublistnooks, he answered by referencing the Listnook Content Policy, which applies to both sublistnooks and users. Given the lack of clarity on how and when the Content Policy is applied, I find describing it as "Clear Cut" to be a total non-answer to the question.

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[deleted] Nov 30, 2016 +102

It appears the content policy is a guideline rather than a set of fixed rules the admins have. I'd appreciate any clarification stating otherwise.

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RMcD94 Nov 30, 2016 +188

It seems like you basically ignore the upvote rule. So many posts say "upvote this" or "get this to the top". Yet asking for votes is clearly against this rule but if I even use listnook's shitty search look how many posts there are There's also basic begging like "if this gets 40 upvotes I will shoot the President" and stuff like that

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noodhoog Nov 30, 2016 +110

Yeah, I don't understand this line that the_donald "doesn't really break the rules" From the [Reddiquette](https://www.listnook.com/wiki/reddiquette) page, which lists site-wide rules for Listnook >[DO NOT] Hint at asking for votes. ("Show me some love!", "Is this front page worthy?", "Vote This Up to Spread the Word!", "If this makes the front page, I'll adopt this stray cat and name it listnook", "If this reaches 500 points, I'll get a tattoo of the Listnook alien!", "Upvote if you do this!", "Why isn't this getting more attention?", etc.) The_Donald is FULL of posts with titles like "To the frontpage!", "Upvote to /r/all!", "Make this #1 on Google Image Search!", and "Wouldn't it be a shame if this hit the front page!" posts. I'm not even going to bother linking specific examples, just go look at the sub. There's usually half a dozen of them on the front page at any given time. So, here we have numerous examples of one of Listnook's most basic policies being violated, and... absolutely nothing happens as a result. Why have rules if they're not enforced? EDIT: Getting lots of complaints that I linked to the Reddiquette page which, while it lists guidelines for using the site, does not technically list rules. Rules would be in the content policy, which is [here](https://www.listnook.com/help/contentpolicy/), and has the following to say about asking for votes: >Prohibited behavior: Asking for votes or engaging in vote manipulation So, asking for votes is both against the rules AND the spirit of the site.

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[deleted] Nov 30, 2016 +458

> In 2009 I replaced the word "fag" with "fog". How deep does the rabbit hole go???????

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BrockThrowaway Nov 30, 2016 +137

Well, I once ran a script that turns every word of "fag" into "fog" and every instance of "fog" into the lyrics for "Never Gonna Give You Up" and every instance of "give you up" or "let you down" into the extended director's edition of Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice, and every instance of groaning in real life because of a dumb plot point into the entire discography of Leonard Cohen and every time Leonard Cohen sings about love, peace, or beauty into the worst episode of Lost, "Stranger in a Strange Land", and every mention of Jack's tattoos into the second-worst episode of Lost, "Expose", and every scene of Rodrigo Santoro as Paulo into a random scene of Rodrigo Santoro as Hector from "Westworld", and every scene he shares with Ed Harris into the entire series of "Seinfeld" and every scene where Kramer swings the door open into Michael Richards' "Racist Laugh Factory Incident." Basically, all instances of homophobia are turned into racism, and it ends up running for about 128 years.

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Super_Zac Nov 30, 2016 +77

* "A" is replaced with "O" to make it "fog". * There are 13 letters between A and O in our Latin alphabet. * 13 is considered an unlucky number. * A horseshoe is the opposite and is considered "lucky". * The Horseshoe Theory suggests that the far left and far right actually are closer than those more moderate on the political spectrum. * /r/The_Donald and /r/SandersForPresident are both opposite political views. * /r/SandersForPresident has 19 characters. /r/The_Donald has 10 characters. * In 1910, William Taft was our president. Taft was born in Ohio. * Ohio borders on Indiana, where Mike Pence is the Governor. * Pence is the plural form of penny, a word primarily used in Britain. * Australia was originally colonized by the British. * "Australia" is an anagram for "Ultra Asia". * There are currently 48 countries in Asia. * 48 divided by 3, the number of letters in "fog", equals 16. * The square root of 16 is 4. * There are 4 letters in the word "Half", and I have no life. * Half-Life 3 confirmed.

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[deleted] Nov 30, 2016 +72

Follow up: does the change to stickies only impact /r/The_Donald, its affiliate subs (and they have many) or all sublistnooks altogether?

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[deleted] Nov 30, 2016 +2222

Imma take this opportunity to ask you something /u/spez i'd really like a way for me to find new sublistnooks on my frontpage without having to find a popular post or comment on /r/all or having to dig for it. Especially the smaller, niche communities. Have you ever though of adding a recommended sublistnooks tab somewhere? There definitely isn't one on the mobile app and I dont think there is one on the website. EDIT: Some people are mentioning www.listnook.com/explore . If only I had known about this sooner (but to be honest doesn't really "satisfy" my concern, as nice as it is). I already found a (hopefully) [interesting community](https://www.listnook.com/r/ModeratelyConfused/) EDIT 2: 6.5 years later, f*** you spez, you lying piece of shit. You and listnook should be ashamed of yourselves. RIP Apollo.

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78952497829864 Nov 30, 2016 +995

Hi spez, Related to the editing incident and trust, in [this article in New York Magazine](http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2015/10/listnook-founder-steve-huffman.html), it says: > After leaving, Huffman found that he had a hard time letting go. He still had administrative access to the site and continued tinkering with its code. Once that access was cut off, he found a back door for another six months before finally being locked out. Am I correct that this means you could still do things like edit users' posts, view their private data (including private messages and sublistnooks), shadowban users, etc. for a long period of time **while not even working at listnook any more?** If that is true, it's extremely alarming and raises a lot of questions, including: * Why did you need administrative access after quitting? * What supervision was there of a non-employee with admin access? * Have there been other non-employees with admin access? Are there any right now? * How was it acceptable (or even legal) to use "a back door" to take back privileged access that the company clearly didn't want you to have?

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spez Nov 30, 2016 +1680

> Why did you need administrative access after quitting? When I left, Listnook was six people, and I had the majority of the engineering knowledge, so I continued to help out even after I left. > What supervision was there of a non-employee with admin access? There were six of us, and we were all close friends. My actions were limited to quick fixes here and there. > Have there been other non-employees with admin access? Are there any right now? No, that was disabled long ago. A few notable ex-employees have distinguish mode in recognition of their contributions to Listnook. > How was it acceptable (or even legal) to use "a back door" to take back privileged access that the company clearly didn't want you to have? That's just bad reporting. Someone made a patch to remove my access. I made a patch to add it back. Nothing was done in secret. This was back in 2010. My access was removed sometime in 2010 when Listnook and I had fully separated.

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Drunken_Economist Nov 30, 2016 +1500

>A few notable ex-employees have distinguish mode in recognition of their contributions to Listnook To expand a bit on this, this means they can make their username appear redish and have a cool little `[Δ]` icon next to it on posts and comments, if they want (kinda like this comment has). That's all "distinguish mode" means.

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Deimorz Nov 30, 2016 +2352

I guess this is a pretty good time to test this out. (This comment has one of the special ex-employee distinguishes on it, it may not show up in some mobile apps)

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Vetinarius Nov 30, 2016 +311

I'm a rather new mod over at /r/Games , when i joined i was told some stories about you, especially how you gave the world automod on your third day, thus enabling mods to have enough free time to eat and drink and thereby lowering the mortality of being a mod by 10%. After some indoctrination from the older mods i am now fairly certain you are the second coming and this special distinguish mode strengthens my believe. Don't wield this power too lightly [insert spiderman quote here]. I will now light the twelve candles in my shrine dedicated to you. (If i had that mode i'd use it all the time and then tell people that i'm sent by the blood gods or smth like that)

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mahalik_07 Nov 30, 2016 +39

[well that's neat.](http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/015/044/b5f.jpg)

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d4rch0n Nov 30, 2016 +23

>Why did you need administrative access after quitting? Lots of companies don't have great procedures for terminated/quitting employees. They continue as normal, and don't even think to restrict previous access they had. They might not even know they had access to the DB at some point. Could be they forgot to kill his VPN access or access to a server. Could be some global read/write user for the database. Lots of businesses give root to all employees that need any sort of access to a server. Wouldn't be surprised if it's just negligence in this case. Controlling access is difficult, requires a lot of work, and a lot of maintenance to ensure the right people have the right access all the time. It's easy to mess this up because it's not a problem until someone abuses it, and it's hard to detect that.

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farkinga Nov 30, 2016 +17

I've never created a backdoor into any system I architected. However, as the architect, there's nobody more qualified to compromise the system than the person who designed it. I can't fully imagine a system that I could build that I could not subsequently break into. Anyway, listnook has become **super serious** and it wasn't always that way. In a spirit of hacking and pranking (which can be practiced in a socially responsible manner - or not), I can easily see this happening without malice.

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reseph Nov 30, 2016 +5987

>PS: As a bonus, I have enabled filtering for r/all for all users. You can modify the filters by visiting r/all on the desktop web (I’m old, sorry), but it will affect all platforms, including our native apps on iOS and Android. Is this going to last forever? plz spez

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Cycloneblaze Nov 30, 2016 +12653

> You can filter r/all now. Thank god. Best thing to come out of this.

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spez Nov 30, 2016 +4471

Yeah, sorry. I started working on back when we made the algo changes to r/all months ago, but I hit some spaghetti in the code and stopped. Last week I had the right combination of incentive and free time to get it done.

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Troll_berry_pie Nov 30, 2016 +5483

Could you please edit the algorithm? Nothing about the Brazil plane crash showed up on my front page until like 10 hours after it happened. It's really annoying when I discover something first from Facebook rather than Listnook. The site's been like that for months now.

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pavlpants Nov 30, 2016 +208

That's cause both /r/news and /r/worldnews have degenerated so much in the last few years (95% of the comments there is just bickering), that there aren't actually any good prominent default listnooks for news.

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kaptainkeel Nov 30, 2016 +345

And before anyone suggests /r/uncensorednews, that place has turned into the spawn of the donald. One of the top upvoted posts the other day was nothing more than an inflammatory blogspam, and the top comment in that post was a picture memeing about liberals. It's no longer good news.

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Speessman Nov 30, 2016 +275

Turned into? That place was formed by literal neo-nazis (Self-proclaimed ones, not just people I'm throwing that word at) from the start. To this day you can go through the mods post histories and find everything from the (((echos))) that we all know and love, to calling people kikes. It was always like that. All that is happened is they have further filtered out the people who were not aware of what kind of cesspit it was right when it was formed.

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taulover Nov 30, 2016 +34

Yeah, I noped out of that sublistnook once those details became clear. /r/neutralnews opened soon thereafter, and that's now my go-to news sublistnook.

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commander_cranberry Nov 30, 2016 +24

The mods on pretty much all of the default subs pick and choose which topics they will allow (not in accordance with their own rules) which has killed off the motivation of a lot of the knights of new. Few knights of new (the people who go into new and push up new content) makes listnook really stale. People think this has all been due to algorithm changes but it's more likely it's due to this user behavior change. It's been going on for at least a few years now. There's lots of evidence of this and listnook admins haven't addressed it.

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[deleted] Nov 30, 2016 +976

[deleted]

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tabarra Nov 30, 2016 +52

I spent the last few days on listnook /r/all, literally scrolling until page 30 and then going back. Yet, somehow I manage to only see a few big posts after 8~12h.

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tabarra Nov 30, 2016 +995

Give some love to Listnook's GitHub page. There are people trying to help you guys, but looks like you are not even reviewing issues or pull requests.

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mindbleach Nov 30, 2016 +284

Oh my god, /r/All is usable again. Any chance of hiding the list? It's a constant reminder of what people are trying to ignore. (And if I copied my old RES list, it'd be taller than the page content.) As with the filter itself, clunky solutions soon beat elegant solutions later.

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bored2death97 Nov 30, 2016 +154

I really wish this would have been implemented prior to the election, though RES filled the void for many, it would have been helpful for those who did not use it. Better late than never though.

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xpopy Nov 30, 2016 +47

The r/all filter is really nice, however I'd really like it if you could toggle the filter, so that if you'd for some reason want to watch the filtered posts, you can just toggle all filters off instead

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cauthon Nov 30, 2016 +103

Will you be able to report statistics on which sublistnooks are the most filtered?

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[deleted] Nov 30, 2016 +86

Yea...I wonder what sub most people on /r/all are happy they can filter out now

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Data_Stream Nov 30, 2016 +5

This is great news, it makes Listnook usable again for a lot of people who just have a hard time even looking at the toxicity from that community. I think it's actually good for places like that to exist, and in the past I've even criticized Listnook for being "too sanitized" in recent years, as it used to be a lot more controversial. Part of the draw to Listnook is that you might see something offensive, something weird or vulgar, and radical ideas from questionable sources. This needs to be a place where, if you're looking for it, you can find just about anything (so long as it's legal for them to host) . But looking at that vulgarity on the front page every single day is just emotionally draining sometimes, makes a person decide to stay away from Listnook entirely. What is it they say about the abyss staring back into you? Well recently I've felt that way, wade through the cesspool enough and you'll still smell bad even after a good shower.

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theydeletedme Nov 30, 2016 +49

Now I won't feel obligated to mention RES or Listnook is Fun whenever someone complains about /r/all.

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panthera_tigress Nov 30, 2016 +1101

So do you still have the ability to ninja edit anyone's post, or is that not a thing listnook admins can do anymore? Because I think that should be a thing that listnook admins literally cannot do. Edit: by this I mean that admins/engineers/whatever shouldn't be able to edit without it being marked, not that they shouldn't be able to edit at all. I understand that it's not possible for the latter to happen.

1101

Meepster23 Nov 30, 2016 +119

They own the damn database. They will always be able to edit posts if they really want to. This is literally a thing you cannot prevent. **Edit:** since OP updated the question a little, here's a more full response Part of the problem here I think is a misunderstanding of what "untraceable" actually means. What spez did wasn't "untraceable" in the sense that there was no way to tell in the DB that it happened. It was only unknown to the end user because he didn't update the comment record to include the edited flag. A forensic investigation could easily show that spez edited in (or at least *someone*) a record in the DB as opposed to the end user. Now, to extend that ability to all site users is the impossible part. What is displayed to the end user is always under the control of Listnook. They choose what to show you and what not to. They could release their logs, but in reality, they could be altered because they aren't about to just turn over a copy of their db and backups. If all you want is the ability to tell if an admin edited a comment for like, say, a police investigation. That already exists and could be easily turned on (audit logging is an out of the box feature of most databases) to a greater extent if it isn't already. If you want to display to the user with 100% certainty that the admins have not updated a comment in the database, then you are shit out of luck. Scraping the site externally and cataloging comments could give you an idea, but it doesn't **prove** who modified a comment, just that a comment got modified and didn't get the edit flag set for whatever reason.

119

qgustavor Nov 30, 2016 +11

Unless people start PGP signing every single listnook comment. ^^^signature ^^^`A4AA3A5BDBD40EA549CABAF9FBC07D6A97016CB3` [^^^public ^^^key](https://keybase.io/qgustavor) ^^^- ^^^signed ^^^using ^^^gnupg

11

spez Nov 30, 2016 +2008

admins (employees) can't do this in general. It's because I had access to everything as an engineer, which we are limiting going forward.

2008

[deleted] Nov 30, 2016 +2751

Alternatively: can you make a sublistnook where every user can edit every other user's post? Then we can all powertrip. ^(/u/powerlanguage pls)

2751

powerlanguage Nov 30, 2016 +441

April Fools' Day 2010 did something like this (t'was before my time). Users thought they were given the power to ban each other and edit titles: [/r/listnook.com/comments/bkzcp/i_just_banned_karmanaut_test_test123_can_i_really/](https://www.listnook.com/r/listnook.com/comments/bkzcp/i_just_banned_karmanaut_test_test123_can_i_really/)

441

del_rio Nov 30, 2016 +106

/r/circlejerk once made everyone who replied to a certain thread a moderator. There was a lot of quality powertripping (and shitposting in modmail) until the admins put a stop to it a few hours later. EDIT: I can't find the thread, but I think it happened like 4-5 years ago.

106

hugemuffin Nov 30, 2016 +44

I mod a sublistnook and we came up against a moderator limit recently, I wonder if they instituted those except for certain non-exempt subs after that.

44

bse50 Nov 30, 2016 +158

You should also insert a mandatory timestamp and "signature" for each and every edit of a user's post. Both by the user itself and the engineers. Legally speaking an asterisk is worth nothing, that timestamp could spare you a lot of legal trouble down the road given how listnook posts have already been produced as proof in a court of law.

158

IDidntChooseUsername Nov 30, 2016 +16

The problem is that the database is beyond Listnook itself. The database contains, among other things, comment texts and last edited timestamps. Whatever the database contains is the truth as far as Listnook sees it, so if an engineer edits the database to just change the text of a comment without changing anything else such as the "last edited" time, then for all intents and purposes, that comment never changed. It always contained that text. We have secretaries in courtrooms so that we can verify everything that has been said in the room without ambiguity, right? If two people disagree on what has been said at some point, the secretary can tell everyone what was really said, and that's the end of that, because the secretary knows the truth about exactly what has been said in that room. But what if the secretary is evil, and wrote down something different from what happened? His/her job is to objectively record the proceeding, which means that person has total control over what has been said in the past. You just have to trust that the secretary isn't evil. And it's the same with Listnook (and literally any website that exists). You just have to trust that they are not evil, because when the website says that this comment has never been edited, that means the comment has never been edited *as far as the Listnook server software knows*. An engineer with database access can still edit the text in the database and the Listnook server software would have no idea that ever happened, because *whatever the database contains is the truth*. You can't do anything other than trust that the secretary is not evil, and this applies to all websites in existence.

16

Exaskryz Nov 30, 2016 +15

>Legally speaking an asterisk is worth nothing, that timestamp could spare you a lot of legal trouble down the road given how listnook posts have already been produced as proof in a court of law. Wait, why do you say an asterisk is worth nothing, but then say timestamps are good? Did you know if you hover over the "x minutes/hours ago" or "x minutes ago* (last edited y minutes ago)" bit, you can get an exact timestamp? (Though listnook seems to auto-update the time of the original post to your current computer time, such that when I started this comment your comment was 11 minutes old, but it is now 13 minutes old as of posting; they don't seem to do that for the edited time.) Spezedit: I should add in that maybe either or both of these are RES features.

15

BroodlordBBQ Nov 30, 2016 +66

dude, "engineer" means the person has complete access to the database, and there's no way to avoid having at least 1 person like that. If you have complete access to the database, you can do EVERYTHING. No limits. No "mandatory signature" or whatever is possible in that case.

66

mostnormal Nov 30, 2016 +12

I don't think they should be admissible in court any more. If nothing else, this has proved that peoples' comments can be edited without their knowledge or consent. And with no evidence that it was ever even changed. The implications of it are pretty broad.

12

[deleted] Nov 30, 2016 +21

One could make that argument for all social media really. There's no way to prove the database wasn't tampered with.

21

[deleted] Nov 30, 2016 +381

No matter what the reasons were, nor what the consequences may turn out to be, I feel compelled to thank you from the bottom of my heart for that glorious bounty of popcorn. As someone who was alone and bored that day, it made Listnook more captivating than usual and provided endless hours of entertainment.

381

AlwaysBananas Nov 30, 2016 +18

As a user, I was on the side that treated it like a Big Deal(TM) - I just hated the idea of giving T_D more fuel for their collective persecution complex. Now that we can filter all, I don't give a c***. As a subscriber and lover of /r/SublistnookDrama I drank about a gallon of water an hour eating all that salty, salty popcorn.

18

316nuts Nov 30, 2016 +5220

ya big dummy didn't no one tell you to not feed the trolls

5220

spez Nov 30, 2016 +3418

I know, I know. It's been my motto for over a decade. I honestly thought they might see some humor in it, we could find some common ground through trollery, and maybe take some of the vitriol out of our relationship.

3418

somethingoddgoingon Nov 30, 2016 +1341

In the spirit of being politically correct, your apology is welcome. But I don't think it was necessary at all. Jeez these guys are just trying to manipulate everyone on this site and expand their power by bitching and moaning. I mean seriously, in what community is it a good idea to insult the admins? And then when you f*** with them a little, they start crying and demanding this and that, its ridiculous that you have to give in to that. Anyone knows not to f*** with the person working his ass off to host the community and if they dont like you messing with them, they can piss off. Every single one of those guys crying about you doing something against f*** spez comments would be good riddance anyway. All we need is your word that you wont mess with people and comments who arent begging for it, and in 10 years of listnook going perfectly fine, im pretty sure we can count on that. edit: thanks for the gold! and great to see so many feel similarly, hope that goes a long way to making you feel better about this whole situation spez. Thanks for making and maintaining this otherwise awesome platform.

1341

loginlogan Dec 1, 2016 +154

It was more than insults. Insulting someone is calling them stupid or fat. They were making vile, unfounded accusations on someone without any proof. Calling someone a pedophile or rapist extends far beyond an insult. I really don't blame /u/spez for his actions. I know they want to try and heal, or at least stabilize things on listnook but the_donald has gone too far. I would love to see them banned completely. There's plenty of okay people on that sub, and most trump supporters are not out right racists, but that sub seems to be a breeding ground for hate.

154

Packers_Equal_Life Dec 1, 2016 +48

>Jeez these guys are just trying to manipulate everyone on this site and expand their power by bitching and moaning its an everyone against us kind of mentality. my buddy has it too and he voted trump, its extremely frustrating to deal with because hes my best friend but anytime politics comes up i swear he just flips a switch and becomes a T_D sentient being. whatever happened to civility?

48

N8CCRG Nov 30, 2016 +5273

If there's one thing we've all learned from a certain portion of the listnook community, it's that they 100% can't ~~dish out what they deal~~ take what they dish out. They rail on safe spaces and yet have one of the most heavily policed safe spaces in the entire site.

5273

Swineflew1 Nov 30, 2016 +1701

This is exactly how I see it, they have no problem abusing listnook and flooding it with hate and abuse, but as soon as someone of authority messes with them (clearly in a joking manner) it's "FIRE HIM, UNACCEPTABLE, ABUSE" blah blah blah. Edit: So far I'm at 100% accuracy at guessing if someone replying is a T_D poster before checking. You guys have hung out in the echo chamber for too long, you all start to sound alike.

1701

majorgeneralporter Nov 30, 2016 +768

The sublistnook culture promotes the greatest concentration of crybullies I've ever seen, listnook or otherwise - and I've seen some damn toxic communities.

768

SetYourGoals Nov 30, 2016 +595

They should just delete it, seriously. I know they'll move to a new sub, but it really did work to mitigate /r/fatpeoplehate, etc. It's not "censorship." It's a private company. They can do what they want. the_donald is the equivalent of someone walking into a public place of business and screaming about their political or religious views. Regardless of if you agree with them, you have to kick them out for disturbing everyone else. To me, listnook is essentially [the security guard in this post from /r/videos yesterday.](https://www.listnook.com/r/videos/comments/5flajl/this_security_guard_deserves_a_medal/) You don't get to come in here and do this, no matter what your beliefs are.

595

[deleted] Nov 30, 2016 +151

[deleted]

151

Paddy_Tanninger Nov 30, 2016 +60

What discussion, they ban discussion outright. If anything, what spez should have done is unban everyone from T_D, and if they ban people frivolously they become invisible to /r/all. Listnook is a website designed to share and discuss trending media and personal posts. Keyword: DISCUSS. If a sublistnook is going to fly in the face of that entire aspect of the website, that's fine, but turn it into a private forum that no one has to see. I bet you /r/SRS wouldn't give a shit if their sublistnook was invisible to /r/all, hell I don't even think I've seen a post of theirs on the front page in my life.

60

Mister_Bloodvessel Dec 1, 2016 +31

>If anything, what spez should have done is unban everyone from T_D Oh god. You're a some sort of troll savant. That would wreak havoc. To make it even more interesting, remove the ability for *anyone* to be banned from the sub. It'd just slowly dissolve into a cesspool of memes with no direction, in effect literally becoming r/circlejerk.

31

majorgeneralporter Nov 30, 2016 +90

Exactly. As a liberal, there *should* be a Trump sub, echo chambers are never good, but T_D is waaaaay far gone. If this pattern continues them they deserve to be deported if they won't follow our laws. Good, law abiding Trump subs can and should stay.

90

Conman93 Nov 30, 2016 +46

Not to mention their threads have almost zero discussion going on in them. It is absolutely dominated by bold text catchphrases and shit posting. Sometimes I see an article on r/all from them and I think "Oh I wonder what their take on this is, and why they believe x or y," but no, it's just a bunch of people yelling hashtags and memes.

46

majorgeneralporter Nov 30, 2016 +17

Exactly, I like being able to see what those with different views than me think, but the problem is that that sub isn't *about* thinking or discussing, yet acts like they're God's gift to listnook.

17

[deleted] Nov 30, 2016 +27

Doesn't help that they weed out anyone who isn't a loud trump supporter like they are. I got banned for asking about the wall and having a bit of skepticism.

27

[deleted] Nov 30, 2016 +89

They hurt people, make them feel unsafe, unaccepted. Want to eliminate their human rights. They make me want to quit talking to people. (and of course they'll dismiss these arguments with some "not all of us" or "stop being so offended cuck" bullshit) Then when anyone tells them to tone down the abuse, they scream about their freedoms. EDIT: The nazis are here.

89

[deleted] Dec 1, 2016 +38

Rule number 6 is literally "No Dissenters/SJWs, this is a pro-Trump sublistnook". Such pathetic bullshit. I decided not to comment there (pointing out this hypocrisy on a post equating the Listnook admins with Nazis) because of fear of being vote-brigaded.

38

LeftZer0 Dec 1, 2016 +15

Check /r/The_Donald and you'll see, on the first page [When you tear out a man's tongue, you haven't proved him a liar. You've only told the world you fear what he might say.](https://www.listnook.com/r/The_Donald/comments/5fsgz9/when_you_tear_out_a_mans_tongue_you_havent_proved/) These people are so far up their own (and each other) asses that they can't see the irony. EDIT: [THE IRONY IS LOST ON THEM](https://imgur.com/a/Q4skE)

15

[deleted] Nov 30, 2016 +577

The memewar with Sweden revealed that. For a bunch of guys who were super snti-PC they sure couldn't handle a 9/11 joke

577

TheDeadManWalks Nov 30, 2016 +406

Ah, remember when their top mod removed the No Racism rule during all that? Good times...

406

-Mantis Nov 30, 2016 +155

Who was top mod at the time? The rejected white nationalist? The European mod?

155

TheDeadManWalks Nov 30, 2016 +144

I can't remember which one, they go through like three a month. Definitely wasn't the racist Dane. Might have been CisWhiteMaelstrom, the last great hope of the white race.

144

TheDrunkenHetzer Nov 30, 2016 +143

Don't forget that they removed their no racism policy over the børkening.

143

[deleted] Nov 30, 2016 +88

Like a woman removing a tiny see-through dress. Holy shit this is a sub for racists? https://media.giphy.com/media/PFwKHjOcIoVUc/giphy.gif

88

[deleted] Nov 30, 2016 +86

[deleted]

86

Zagorath Nov 30, 2016 +61

> they … can't dish out what they deal But these are the same things. Do you mean "they can't take what they dish out"?

61

waltonics Nov 30, 2016 +1026

It was clearly a joke and it was hilarious. The trollers got trolled and reacted like the self entitled bullies with no grip on reality that they are. Thank you for getting the filter done. I only hope it's not too late. TD consists almost entirely of attention seeking children, they have nothing of value or intelligence to discuss amongst themselves and only derive pleasure from taunting others. I doubt they are going to take this well.

1026

crazedhatter Nov 30, 2016 +505

At the risk of starting a flame war, the President-Elect himself has shown an inability to take what he dishes, I think it is a bit charitable of you to think his followers would.

505

Banana_Salsa Nov 30, 2016 +468

The Donald see humor? F*** you could've squeezed blood from a stone compared to them finding that humorous. That said, f*** r/the_donald and I'm glad I can filter them out and the rest of listnook can too.

468

316nuts Nov 30, 2016 +424

<3 it's okay, i don't think most of the users on this site actually give a shit. it's just pent up outrage about everything else and you happened to get in the way life goes on

424

philphan25 Nov 30, 2016 +318

> I honestly thought they might see some humor in it /r/misjudgedbyamile

318

[deleted] Nov 30, 2016 +3247

/u/spez, most users possessing even a modicum of common sense forgive you for snapping and deciding to troll the trolls. You're only human and listnook's mantra has always been "remember the human". We're sorry the admins, yourself included, had a miserable thanksgiving. I have a follow up question: does this new sticky-post behavior only impact /r/The_Donald or its affiliate subs as well?

3247

spez Nov 30, 2016 +2522

Right now, just them. In the past, when a community was deliberately wasting our time, we would look for general solutions that wouldn't single out a specific community. Unfortunately, that usually causes civilian casualties (e.g. when we removed all stickies from r/all and broke sports communities). Going forward, we'll just take away their toys specifically and move on.

2522

Relevant-Magic-Card Nov 30, 2016 +1807

I support this move. I am Canadian and I witnessed the rise and fall of a very motivated, very active sublistnook in /r/sanderforpresident , and that sub never came close to how toxic and disruptive to my listnook experience /r/The_Donald was. 4chan bigots have no place on listnook, all they want to do is provoke negative reactions from people. EDIT: Grammarz EDIT 2: My citizenship probably has nothing to do with this specific situation, but a lot of people that used listnook outside of the US felt alienated the last few months, myself included. Final Edit: What people are failing to realize in this thread is that the influence a listnook user has over the experience of the website is not limited to what you are able to get to /r/all. This discussion is much bigger than just posts on /r/all.

1807

LondonCallingYou Nov 30, 2016 +501

Lol they're brigading your comment and downvoting the shit out of you for telling the truth. /r/sandersforpresident never had anywhere near the amount of bigotry, insult, and general douchery that /r/the_donald has, that's an objective truth. SAD!

501

CodenameMolotov Nov 30, 2016 +1076

I feel like all of listnook was playing a waiting game for Trump to lose the election so that that sublistnook could run out of steam and degrade into conspiracy theories but after all that waiting it turns out that we're truly fucked and have to wait 4 more years for it to die naturally.

1076

Because_Bot_Fed Nov 30, 2016 +644

I 100% support what you did. The #1 rule of the internet IMO is don't dish what you can't take. If you fall apart when someone else trolls, well, don't be a troll. The trolls got trolled and they're butthurt about it. Wahh wahhhhh. Zero tears shed. Every user on TD could leave listnook and nothing of value would be lost. I know you guys try to be all neutral and stuff, but at a certain point it's *your* f****** sandbox and **your** f****** rules. No one with even an ounce of common sense would go anywhere else on the internet and spew hate at the highest level admins and expect zero reprisal. People for some reason think that just because they've made themselves a little home on listnook they're immune to repercussions to their actions? And frankly what you did was harmless. The whole "losing trust" and "worrying about the far reaching implications" is just hyperbole to play up the victim/martyr complex that sub as a whole has. It's totally disingenuous to the extreme. If you really had it out for them you could easily crack down on them and ban them/their sub from listnook the same way other subs have been banned from listnook, instead you made some harmless edits to a few posts just to yank their chain, and they predictably went berserk and acted like the whole universe is out to get them. What do trolls love? Harassing other people, bothering other people, getting a negative reaction out of other people. Who/what is/was getting the biggest negative reactions out of people? Trump, and this election. Trump and that sub are just a galvanizing banner under which trolls and edgelords gather who either just want to troll, or just want to see the world on fire just to see what'll happen. I would bet quite a bit that the vast majority of TD posters and Trump supporters overall don't truly like or support him but just want to watch the world burn down when he's in office. They have the general disposition and self-restraint of a child left alone in a room with gasoline and matches. And they take pride and glee in the fact that it's not just them that will get burnt when they do something stupid. We're all going to suffer for this for the next 4 years, And we have a bunch of trolls who didn't outgrow their teen angst to thank for it. Unlike when you guys banned FPH and there were lots of people from outside the sub who questioned the decision and didn't approve of that move, I don't really think anyone from outside TD gives a flying f*** if you outright ban them all and their shitty sub. Edit: TD shills go away, I'm not gonna spend all day replying to you. Edit2: Much love to all the TD shills filling my inbox with salty tears. <3

644

Hard_boiled_Badger Nov 30, 2016 +83

Stickied threads should not be on /all from any sub. By their nature they are community specific and do not pertain to any user outside that community therefore should not be voted on by anyone not on that sub.

83

[deleted] Nov 30, 2016 +1090

[deleted]

1090

spez Nov 30, 2016 +1154

I used emacs for about 15 years before switching to 2 years ago. I still use vim. No good reason why. I love them both.

1154

Werner__Herzog Nov 30, 2016 +2229

> More than anything, I want emacs users to heal, and I want vim users to heal, and although many of you have asked us to burn emacs users with fire, it is with this spirit of healing that I have resisted doing so. \- u/spez

2229

PMME-YOUR-TITS-GIRL Nov 30, 2016 +71

someone needs to ask the real werner herzog where he stands on the emacs vs. vim issue

71

Werner__Herzog Nov 30, 2016 +137

I don't know what these things you are talking about are, but the name "emacs" reminds me of the time I was trying to ice fish. I failed miserably, not only did I not catch any fish, but the ice broke (it made a sound similar to that word) and I fell in. And while I felt the cold, dark embrace of the lake, I pondered about how cold and dark and the universe is. The universe is indifferent. It wouldn't have cared if I stopped existing in that moment.

137

brokenAmmonite Nov 30, 2016 +17

The answer comes in the form of a 3-hour-long documentary consisting mostly of long still shots of programmers staring at their keyboards

17

PM_ME_OLD_PM2_5_DATA Nov 30, 2016 +177

This is actually the most interesting thing I've seen on listnook today. Most people that I know a) stick with the first text editor they learned, and b) have strong feelings about why their choice is the best. Never known somebody who switched and was okay with both.

177

Kazu_the_Kazoo Nov 30, 2016 +35

You know, I use Sublime. And when people tell me I would save time in the long run by switching to vim or emacs, I tell them that actually I wouldn't because all the time I would then have to spend trying to convert people to emacs or vim would be time I currently spend, you know, coding. In Sublime. Come at me you savages.

35

PM_ME_OLD_PM2_5_DATA Nov 30, 2016 +13

Haha, I've actually heard a lot of good things about sublime. I just stick to vim because I've found myself on old university systems without anything else available and I like to be prepared to get by in that situation.

13

smile_e_face Nov 30, 2016 +9

Switched from Emacs to vim a while back after using Emacs for years. I still prefer Emacs for as an editor, Org mode, etc, but vim is just so much easier to use on mobile, over a slow network, or on really underpowered hardware. As I'm doing a lot of all of that these days, it just makes more sense for me. If I could get Emacs to lose a little weight, I'd happily switch back.

9

RolandWind Nov 30, 2016 +41

On the flipside, I've been using vim for 15 years, mostly because I can't figure out how to exit.

41

CaptInsane Nov 30, 2016 +4006

How do you feel about [ArsTechnica's David Kravets](http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/11/listnook-chief-admits-to-editing-comments-that-were-critical-of-him/) comparing you to Ellen Pao, and that despite all the hate she got she didn't stoop this low? > Even Ellen Pao, the former Listnook CEO, didn't change comments despite a barrage of insults levied at her last year as the site began cleaning up its community.

4006

enginears Nov 30, 2016 +9752

Yeah I've been a daily user of Listnook for 4+ years now and I truly don't care. I like Listnook. You can do whatever you want and I wont stop coming here. So just saying. You probably dont hear this side too often.

9752

penultimate_supper Nov 30, 2016 +428

Yeah, this is me. I don't think listnook has a particular responsibility to be a bastion of free speech. I think it says something about the character of people like /u/spez who run listnook that they want it to be one, but I don't require that in a service I use that I have no stake in. As long as the government doesn't start censoring listnook I feel that my freespeech rights are intact, and as long as listnook still provides a service I enjoy, I'll keep coming.

428

makemeking706 Nov 30, 2016 +318

Never underestimate the power of addiction...or a lack of good alternatives. 8+ years checking in.

318

uncleyachty Nov 30, 2016 +148

dude you had everything at your disposal making a username on listnook 8 years ago and you went with that ugly thing. no offense... but come on dude

148

[deleted] Nov 30, 2016 +1572

[deleted]

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Last_Jedi Nov 30, 2016 +263

> Why not all sublistnooks? If this behaviour is toxic why not block it completely? Other subs could exploit it. Realistically there is no other sub that is consistently stickying posts to get users to vote them to /r/all. /r/the_donald is the only sub using it in a toxic manner, which they have done every day for *months* now, so now, to quote /u/yishan: > We tried to let you govern yourselves and you failed, so now The Man is going to set some Rules. Admittedly, I can't say I'm terribly upset.

263

holyteach Nov 30, 2016 +104

> if we do not see the situation improve, we will continue to take privileges from communities whose users continually cross the line I think he's saying that other subs will face that as well if they exploit it.

104

jaspersnutts Nov 30, 2016 +1074

As a subscriber to r/the_donald I would love it if you did work to reprimand the people spreading the message of hate, racism, bigotry, homophobia, etc.. The actions of the few should not generalize all of us. The vast majority of us welcome anyone no matter what race, gender, religion you belong to. We didn't want to make america great again for half the country. We want to make it great for everyone. Edit: Thank you kind stranger for the gold! MAGA!

1074

shadowrun456 Nov 30, 2016 +48

Here is my experience on /r/the_donald: I visited the /r/the_donald sub (for the first time ever) and noticed a thread which claimed that some politician (Podesta? I don't remember the exact name, because it was the first time I have ever heard it; I am not from the US) related to Hillary Clinton was guilty of child abuse. The OP in the thread listed several links of supposed evidence, and also wrote that "these are not mere allegations". After reading through all the information in OP's listed links, I didn't find a single sentence about child abuse. I then asked the OP if he can show me exactly where and in which links the proofs are. He replied that there are no proofs and edited his thread, which was already (one of) the most upvoted threads in /r/the_donald at that time. I then asked OP if he sees no problem with blatantly lying like that, claiming that "these are not mere allegations" and that the links prove that child abuse happened, and then simply removing the bit about child abuse when asked to show where the alleged non-alleged proofs are, but keeping the rest of the post about how "depraved" Podesta is. He then replied that by "child abuse" he meant that he considers any child being within 50 meter radius of Podesta as child abuse. I tried to reply to that comment, and got the message that I am banned from posting on /r/the_donald. My comments got deleted too. In my opinion, such behavior is not only disgustingly immoral, but also illegal in most jurisdictions (libel laws, etc). This is worse than hate, racism, bigotry, homophobia, etc. And it was the moderators of /r/the_donald who were not only allowing, but actively supporting such behavior. Why can I not generalize a sub by the actions of its moderators?

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A_Bottle_Of_Charades Nov 30, 2016 +132

Oh come on, /r/the_donald doesn't welcome anyone, they ban everyone and anyone who says anything bad about Trump. They shitpost screenshots of people disagreeing with Trump with a hundred+ comments saying "LIBTARD CUCK DEPORT IMMEDIATELY! F****** CUCK!" they shitpost screenshoted quotes of liberal politicians and celebrities, not to discuss the issues in the screenshot, but to berate, insult, and laugh at that person. It's disgusting. I don't subscribe to that sub, becuse it is hands down the most toxic and least welcoming sub on listnook. one time i was stoned, saw an article on all about Trump, didn't agree with the headline, so went into the thread to argue. Becuse that's what I thought listnook comments were about, open discussion of issues. Not on /r/the_donald though. I was called a cuck, libtard, fag, told to kill myself, and eventually banned permanently, all within 30 minutes of my initial posit. Edit: here's my conversation with the totally open, welcoming, and freedom loving moderators of r/T_D. Yes! They want to make America great for everyone!! http://imgur.com/a/domMW

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[deleted] Nov 30, 2016 +29

> The vast majority of us welcome anyone no matter what race, gender, religion you belong to. Maybe the majority, but the *vast* majority? I've seen so many upvoted comments in the_donald saying things like "**DEBORT KEBAB**" and shit like that, absolutely generalizing all muslims. And don't forget that one post about denouncing actual racists from your sub. That had quite a few *highly upvoted* comments defending white nationalism and racial segregation.

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mrtomjones Nov 30, 2016 +25

This is a load of shit. Every single time i see a post that is hateful on politics it's a Donald poster. Every single f****** Donald post is full of people being horrible and saying terrible shit. Yelling that word they learned in the last year cuck. Calling people every form of sexist out racist insult. Or simply posting things that are blatantly false. The entire sub is a cesspool. If you wish to be respected and have a mature sub dedicated to the immature candidate then you are going to need to start a new sub because that user base is toxic as shit. It's sad to know so many people are like that

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[deleted] Nov 30, 2016 +18

Its a revolting echo chamber where most of the posts seem snide and directed ta "cucks" and how salty people are. Its the alt right version of srs and i despise both. You cant blame me for generalizing as you cant see anyone having a reasonable disagreement when trump is dear leader. The posts I was unfortunate enough to run into were usually devoid of nuance and seemingly intentionally ignorant For example wanting a recount due to exit poll anomalies and multiple mistakes favoring trump is entirely different from taking the stance before the election itself that it was rigged and it would be fraudulent. Trump himself said he would challenge the results if given reason to do so. You'd think people would acknowledge that this is *exactly* what trump would have done. Hell I'd have hoped that Trump would have said I don't blame them Instead he had to prove what type of man we all know he is.

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westpenguin Nov 30, 2016 +59

> I would love it if you did work to reprimand the people spreading the message of hate, racism, bigotry, homophobia, etc.. That's the job of your moderators. You need to report everything you see in /r/the_donald related to hate, racism, bigotry, homophobia and follow-up with the moderators.

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Gordondel Nov 30, 2016 +34

I created a thread on the_donald, asking **nicely** what the views of Trump supporters were about climate change and why it didn't seem to worry anybody that he doesn't believe in it. I got banned instantly for "trolling" and when I messaged the moderators they muted me. Maybe start by not having the most toxic part of your community run it.

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[deleted] Nov 30, 2016 +32

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spez Nov 30, 2016 +1641

I agree entirely with this sentiment. This message needs to come from your moderators. If it does, the community has a chance. If it does not, r/the_donald is trending in the wrong direction.

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bigidiotdummy Nov 30, 2016 +2035

I'm curious what else that sub could possibly do to "trend in the wrong direction". They have openly gamed your site to the point you are editing code and removing features to stop them and openly broken your rules against brigading and harassment to the point they, and only they, are not allowed to link to anywhere else on listnook. Other sublistnooks have been banned or quarantined for less; why the special treatment?

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reachouttouchFate Dec 1, 2016 +103

The sub has also done what I've never seen before, which is welcome the destruction of r/all when they subverted code or procedure and had the first *several* pages of r/all flooded with its topics last week. How is that not an attack on the forum itself? Secondly, the sublistnook operates under the guise of following basic rules regarding safety, avoiding threats, etc, of fellow listnookors but it's okay to create topics and replies rallying for the death (and I remember a noose picture circling) of a former First Lady? Society would not have allowed this for Laura Bush, Barbara Bush, or any other former First Lady if she were alive today but it's okay when it's Hillary, not only a former First Lady but the most experienced female politician this country has ever had? What if she had been become the President-Elect? Does the forum at large grasp how much r/t_d would've put listnook at risk by essentially harboring seditious ralliers and trolls who call upon the death of the nation's highest official? I did the survey a few weeks back and commented the leniency r/t_d has had surpasses ones like when r/fatpeoplehate had been around. While I have not been registered a year, never have I seen the level of maliciousness I've seen through them. It has helped to deceive *countless* numbers of impressionable people and incite hatred where it had not existed on such a level before. What is put up here, there or not, gets picked up by google's search engines (even down to such as "upvote enough so [x] false picture is synonymous with ____) and, at times, media outlets. The 300K+ there has helped manipulate the way the country reads things online to the point it has helped put 300M+ in the hands of people with almost no integrity or accountability. The "wrong direction" has already begun and I don't mean politically. I mean it's become a radical element which feels itself superior to the system which allows it to operate and superior to the rules of decency and respect which is expected to exist without threat and without the good will harboring of statements which would easily attract police investigation in the real world. Replace the bombastic, threatening statements on HRC or Huma or anyone easily targeted with the name of someone at work or in one's own community. It would bring in calls to authorities but there it has long been repeatedly tolerated. Even though it is online, simply because it is online does not mean it should be as close to carte blanche as the bounds can be pushed. They are direct threats, far crossing the line of broad statements which had other subs shut down. I am glad the admins of Listnook are taking a step regarding this and it should not hesitate one bit to take further in protection of all of Listnook from facing legal or federal criminal probes down the line.

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m00nh34d Nov 30, 2016 +268

The admins are scared. If I had a sub with links to various other forums and channels where we discussed, openly, ways to brigade and game the system, my sub would (rightly) be banned. They can't do that to T_D because it would just cause far too much drama and damage, having 300k users going on a rage across the site. I'm not sure what can be done here, it seems like they've left it too long. Maybe they could introduce stronger rules to address some specific loopholes they're taking advantage of, but even then, they would still need to take some action, and any action would result in user revolt.

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Wildbow Nov 30, 2016 +101

I imagine there's more to it - Listnook is pushing in a direction where they're a site that people go for news, media, discourse, and so on. Look at what happened this past election with how virtually every media outlet was deemed to be left-leaning or right-leaning, if not outright hard-left or hard-right. For or against. It's the most effective way to attack a given outlet or site. If Listnook acted against The_Donald, especially prior to the election happening, then it would get branded a left-leaning site. And bias or perceived bias, particularly in cases where people can point the finger at a specific action (as with the event in Spez's OP), hurts listnook as a whole. Look at spez's recentish AMA and how he dodged the questions about his personal stance and feeling. At how he talked about how /r/Politics accused him of being pro-Donald and how /r/the_Donald accused him of being pro-Hillary. Short of people not asking the question in the first place, that's a space Listnook most likely wants to occupy. Users can disagree with that, but what users want of listnook and what the listnook board of directors wants of listnook may diverge on some fronts. Listnook wants to become an *institution*, something big enough that it can't be killed. We want a good user experience. And allowing The_Donald to continue to exist, toxic as it may be, is a requirement for the institution, lest the institution suffer, at a cost of the user experience. Yes, there's the problem that the trolls would no longer keep mostly to their individual corner and would rampage for a while (a la FPH) but there's a political side to it too, imo.

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ihahp Nov 30, 2016 +141

They totally can ban t_d. They just can't do it out of the blue. it requires a systematic set of specific warnings (with citations) to the mods, and directly to the subscribers (if t_d mods aren't passing it along) over a course of a few months. FPH and a ton of others knew the axe was coming becuase that's how the admins did it before.

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[deleted] Nov 30, 2016 +98

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[deleted] Nov 30, 2016 +190

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A_Bottle_Of_Charades Nov 30, 2016 +640

Hey spez, I dont think the moderators over there have any interesting in doing anything like that. I was banned within a few minutes of my post for disagreeing with trump, then I was called a fag twice for asking why I was banned. That sub is pure toxic, it needs to go. http://imgur.com/a/domMW

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[deleted] Nov 30, 2016 +35

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[deleted] Nov 30, 2016 +476

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[deleted] Nov 30, 2016 +573

1. Oops. 2. OOOOOPS. 3. Way to be the bigger person and come clean. We love you and we love Listnook. <3

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PitchforkAssistant Nov 30, 2016 +896

If anyone here wants to copy their RES filters over to the listnook filtering thing, here's an easy way to do it: 1. [Open the RES filteListnook settings on /r/all](https://www.listnook.com/r/all/#res:settings/filteListnook). 2. Press F12 and open the console tab. 3. Copy/paste this into the box at the bottom of the console and press enter: ```$(".filtered-details input.sr-name").val($("#optionContainer-filteListnook-sublistnooks #tbody_sublistnooks input").map(function(){return $(this).val();}).get().join(" ")).submit();``` You're done, it copied your RES filters over into listnook's add filters box and added them. ^(EDIT: Added direct link to filteListnook settings, fixed formatting and hopefully made the instructions a bit clearer) EDIT 2: If you are using regex in your sublistnook filters or you have more than 100 filters, this might work: $(".filtered-details input.sr-name").val($("#optionContainer-filteListnook-sublistnooks #tbody_sublistnooks input").map(function(index) { if (!$(this).val().includes("/") && index < 100) { return $(this).val(); } }).get().join(" ")).submit(); It won't try to add more than 100 (listnook's filter cap) and should ignore any filter containing regex.

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nosecohn Nov 30, 2016 +304

Thank you for this. May I suggest you bring on an [ombudsman?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ombudsman) Large organizations that count on the public trust have long considered an ombudsman to be a good approach to enforcing transparency and balance. Listnook has become an international news and opinion platform used by a wide range of people, so it seems like a good time to consider bringing on this kind of oversight. The mod team of /r/NeutralPolitics (shameless plug) frequently has to deal with situations where a disagreement between users with diametrically opposed views goes off the rails and crosses the line from a political discussion to a personal argument. We're intimately familiar with the need to include a variety of views in decision-making, to state our policies openly, and provide transparency in the way we implement them. But doing so requires being dedicated to those principles first and foremost, and for an organization with the size and dynamism of listnook, the best way to do that would be with an independent oversight person or team. I hope you'll consider it. Cheers and thank you again.

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Aroelen Nov 30, 2016 +832

>PS: As a bonus, I have enabled filtering for r/all for all users. You can modify the filters by visiting r/all on the desktop web (I’m old, sorry), but it will affect all platforms, including our native apps on iOS and Android. I think this should be **much** more noticeable, to be honest. I'm surprised it doesn't have its own post, that's one of the basic RES features people have asked for since forever to be on the site.

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ColinOnReddit Nov 30, 2016 +108

I do 99% of my Listnooking on baconreader. I've had this function since I started. I haven't seen Bernie Sanders, trump, shit Listnook says, or any sports team pop up in a long time.

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omgitsfletch Dec 1, 2016 +76

I don't find it unreasonable that a large majority of Listnookors don't want to see T_D on the front page, or at least not with the staggering frequency that it occurs with right now. And at least not when their own sublistnook rules go against the entire spirit of Listnook as a whole. You aren't supposed to downvote someone just because you disagree with them, but disagree in their sub, and not only are you mass downvoted, you are BANNED, permanently. When people collectively decide they don't want to see posts on the main page from a community that doesn't allow dissenting opinions, that doesn't make the tards in T_D victims, it makes them assholes; mad that nobody wants to encourage their childish behavior any longer. We need a site wide Listnook rule, ASAP. From the following: 1. A community that is private, whether so strict in the fact they literally only allow members they approve (like some subs already) or whether more loosely in the fact that they only allow a single type of opinion, under threat of ban (as /r/the_donald operates currently). 2. A community, that based on the number of subscribers it has, the amount of activity, and the sheer number of upvotes as compared to downvotes on a post, has a tendency to reach the "megaphone" of the frontpage & /r/all frequently. PICK ONE. Nobody is saying you can't have your private community, cordoned off from the masses. But what we (at least I, and I'm sure quite a lot of other Listnookors) are saying is if you want said private community, you don't get to blast your posts and opinions to the front page all the time. It needs to be severely curtailed at a minimum, if not completely eliminated. If you want to have the global reach of the front page, you adopt the policy of fostering differing opinions. If you want to be an echo chamber, your echo chamber doesn't get a megaphone to blast everyone else.

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splattypus Nov 30, 2016 +512

If it makes you feel any better, I never had much trust in Listnook. Listnook is an aggregator of content and communities at best, generic social media in application, and host to some awful people and substance at worst. It was stupid and naive to think that you owed anyone unmitigated free speech or a platform for any ideas at any point on the spectrum. Listnook is a private company with many interests or obligations, entirely entitled to act towards its users as it sees fit and necessary. I think it was *dumb* of you to do what you did, but I also think it was hilarious and in all likelihood would have behaved the same way given the same tools and opportunity. The difference is you get paid a lot of money to *not* do that, and I don't. But ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯ I definitely appreciate a hardline stance against disruptive users and communities. I've advocated it for a while. Now obviously you can't cave to every instance of social pressure, or nothing stops people from organizing a bullying campaign to push out contradictory opinions or viewpoints, but when you have hard evidence of communities* or users being disrupting the functionality of the site (not just hearsay or rumors), you're entirely entitled to act as you see fit. If we, as the consumer and user don't appreciate it, we can deal with it or take a hike. It would suck, but you can't please all the people all the time. I appreciate the ability for us to filter subs* from all (been doing it with one extension or another for a while), as well as for subs to opt out of /r/all. I would even support the ability for admins to revoke a subs status to appear on /r/all based on behavior (or content, in extenuating circumstances) further than is apparent now. Anyways, cheers /u/spez and admin team.

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crappycap Nov 30, 2016 +32

Good sentiment/attitude, agreed completely. I knew from reading right away that you're an old user that has been around and a quick check confirmed that. Not trying to bag on the younger/newer users, but **sometimes people take listnook too gdamn seriously**. While its a massive site with real influences - there's a real echo chamber at select communities and people too easily react disproportionately. (Take r/The_Donald and r/politics as an example). It's not that the United States Presidential election have no real consequences, but whenever you read into a selective community - it can seem like the world is freaking ending. * President Bush gets re-elected. The select communities scream in agony. * President Obama gets re-elected. The select communities scream in disbelief. * President-elect Trump gets elected. The world is ending, apparently. But no. At the end of the day the real world awaits. I still have to freaking take my daughter to school. My Steam backlog is still as long as ever. Those of us in the Western world and in the middle+ class are extremely fortunate. If you have time to shitpost on listnook, there's a good chance your life isn't so bad after all.

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seanlax5 Nov 30, 2016 +15

>Not trying to bag on the younger/newer users, but **sometimes people take listnook too gdamn seriously** Somewhat newer user here. I learned this immediately after joining three years ago and largely ignore and lol at people taking it way too seriously. Not giving a shit about karma helps too.

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ItsBOOM Nov 30, 2016 +175

>It was not meant to circumvent organic voting, which r/the_donald does to slingshot posts into /r/all Is this really how so many posts got to the top of /r/all? It seems crazy because now that they have no stickies there is nothing in the first 2 pages from the_donald, even though the posts there have so many points. Was something else put in place to stop them from reaching /r/all as much?

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Retanaru Nov 30, 2016 +42

It is just that they had stickied every single popular post in the sub before so they all got removed. Gotta give it like 14 hours before their new posts can get past the slow algorithm.

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WDoE Dec 1, 2016 +25

Now they are stickying directions to get to posts they want on top of /r/all. They sticky it on the sub and in the comment section of every post. All the while they still delete any post and ban users who disagree in the slightest. Biggest circle-jerk safe space in the history of the internet. Oh well. They'll move on to another audience once they realize they have been ignored off the stage.

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Jess_than_three Nov 30, 2016 +36

Hi /u/spez, Moving into the future, what criteria will be used to determine whether a sublistnook is toxic enough to be quarantined or banned? What level of evidence will be expected from users making such a case? Leaving aside "troublesome users", what kind of consequences can be expected for sublistnooks whose users are demonstrably engaged in botting in order to hit the top of /r/all? At the very least, might it be reasonable to manually exclude submissions from such communities from feeds like /r/all? Finally, on an unrelated note... At one time, a policy was introduced which stated that no sexualized photos of people would be allowed on listnook without subjects' consent. On paper, this sounded like a great way to get rid of the remaining "creepshots" sublistnooks, as well as who knows how much revenge p***, etc. (Which is a good thing, right? Surely it's non-controversial that nobody should have their their n*** photos shared online to an audience of millions of strangers - and potentially *non*-strangers: friends, family members, coworkers, classmates, hiring managers...? - without their consent and typically without even their *knowledge*.) But in practice the site remains a venue for any amount of that stuff, including things where the lack of consent is pretty obvious (as well as at least a few still present "creepshots"-style sublistnooks). It ultimately ended up, given that it was announced in the wake of /r/creepshots being shut down, appearing to be nothing more than a shield for the admins to hide behind any time a woman found out that she was both unlucky enough to have her photos spread around and lucky enough to A) find out at all and B) be enough of a celebrity to put pressure on the website. Is there any plan to actually enforce this policy in a meaningful way, or does it just exist to protect those who can afford expensive attorneys? Thanks!

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drschlock Nov 30, 2016 +24

Implementing the filter for /r/all is a reasonable solution. If moderators want to ban anyone who dissents with their community, fine. As a user, I should have the same ability to ban your posts from my view. If I'm not allowed to post my opinion on your community, then don't force me to see yours on /r/all. Of course the downside is the further creation of echo-chambers and disconnected communities. Sometimes two-way or zero-way roads are better than one-way roads.

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tuptain Nov 30, 2016 +176

I think The Donald would be a fine sublistnook if dissent was allowed. The thing about Listnook is that the title is almost always bullshit and you go to the comments to figure out why. That isn't possible in The Donald sub, you either join the circlejerk or you're removed. Other subs have their biases too and you'll be downvoted but strict banning for disagreement doesn't happen anywhere else on Listnook afaik, definitely not a sub that is as frequently front paged as The Donald. If you want to fix the issue, start off by removing their ability to ban anyone and everyone so actual discussions can take place. EDIT: Honestly this shouldn't be just focused on The Donald, I think Listnook should rethink allowing mods to ban people from their subs at all. There will still need to be a ban function in place but it should probably be at the admin level, not the mod level.

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yentity Nov 30, 2016 +363

While I would really appreciate the ability to filter out /r/The_Donald out, It also enables users to further extend their echo chambers. This is part of the reason we are seeing such divisiveness on the web and I have a feeling that this tool will be used to filter out everything people don't agree with even if it is based on truth. **EDIT:** Another cool feature about listnook has been the top comments always provide context to / debunk misleading posts. If there was a way to filter this out easily, there is a potential for further explosion of uncontested misleading and false claims.

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[deleted] Nov 30, 2016 +124

I agree, but /r/t_d isn't a forum for discussion, it's a circlejerk of name-calling and shitposts that I am just so damn tired of seeing everyday. I'd rather see /r/politics become more bipartisan so good discussion could happen there.

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tastyratz Nov 30, 2016 +266

Honestly, I am going to say that my basic interpretation if your post is "sorry, not sorry" or "sorry I got caught". I heard the news as news and on /r/sysadmin talking about executive access but didn't see what was done. I don't know if they deserved it, I've never really read /r/the_donald or seen it in my daily experience until now, and I don't know much about what it's about. I moderate on some small forums (MUCH smaller than this) and have for years. Editing troll comments and trying to out troll the trolls in their own posts for a site with the stature of Listnook? You're blaming a sublistnook for your behavior with the equivalent of "but they started it". I'm glad to see steps taken to prevent this in the future but Listnook needs to remember to walk the line between community standards and speech censorship, especially when shaped around political agenda. Seeing this influence from ANY side at the management level is not a good thing for the core user base. For that, you should be GENUINELY sorry... not just for the fallout.

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Indenturedsavant Nov 30, 2016 +241

It's interesting to see the difference in the dialogue here vs that in /r/the_donald where they are ban happy against dissenters. Anyways, /u/spez is anything being done to combat the vote manipulation occurring in /r/the_donald such as the scripts [see here](https://i.imgur.com/Gd0XhcE.png) [and here](https://i.imgur.com/IoWKFyD.png) And using css to remove the downvote button. I have no doubt that they think they are victims and that this justifies their actions but how does this not go against the site rules? Also /r/the_donald is the most visible offenders here but this is likely happening to a lesser extent with other subs as well. Thanks for the apology but I agree that it is fun to troll the trollers especially in a case like this where they can't handle what they try to dish out. Hopefully one day they will see the irony in their completes about overreacting SJWs and safe spaces.

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philipwhiuk Nov 30, 2016 +80

> And using css to remove the downvote button. I have no doubt that they think they are victims and that this justifies their actions but how does this not go against the site rules? Lots of sublistnooks do this.

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[deleted] Nov 30, 2016 +49

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jexio Nov 30, 2016 +191

Can you keep track of how many people filter subs? I would love to see the amount of people filtering subs out of r/all

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[deleted] Dec 1, 2016 +8

Fairly new to listnook....But if people feel harassed or antagonized why don't they just report/block/ignore/literally just stop reading stuff they find offensive? People are equally as toxic as they are cry babies. I have full faith in the listnook report and blocking system that I know if there is an issue I can handle it on my end and move on with my life. If you dont like the way a community behaves dont sub to it. I dont like r/the_donald so my adult response would be just plain not going to that sub and or ignoring things coming from it. Its literally that easy and listnook makes it that easy. Maybe there is much more to it than that but y'all certainly didnt ruin my Thanksgiving and I will continue to use listnook daily. Thanks Listnook!

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blindcolumn Nov 30, 2016 +158

Is there any way to temporarily disable filters, other than logging out or opening a private window? Sometimes I like to see what /r/all looks like without my filters in place. Edit: I figured out a hacky way to do it. Just go to /r/all-null.

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IPostStupidThings Nov 30, 2016 +29

you can also use that trick to manually filter sublistnooks e.g. * /r/all-announcements filters out announcements * /r/all-announcements-funny filters out announcements and funny * /r/all-announcements-funny-pics filters out announcements, funny, and pics * etc it just works because there's nothing on /r/null

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hos_gotta_eat_too Dec 1, 2016 +21

u/spez I sent a message before discovering this announcement, and wanted to share here. I have seen the desire to be done with toxic subs as well as toxic people..and i agree. On r/MakingAMurderer we were given a new mod in May who singlehandedly destroyed a subscription of 65,000 users. We branched off to r/TickTockManitowoc and have thrived and if you look at our numbers of growth over the summer, you will see we have developed into a positive sub of 7,559 subscribers with a number spike everytime something new happens with the still active case. The moderator brought in by r/MakingAMurderer was u/NotANestleShill who today I learned was permanently suspended from Listnook due to doxxing mods apparently. This gives me reason to believe he was doxxing the mod of r/MakingAMurderer as he seemed afraid to remove him in private messages I got from him previously. This sub owner is owner of 126 subs, and barely if ever checks on r/MakingAMurderer and it is my request as owner of 1 actual sublistnook, r/TickTockManitowoc ...a community of happy subscribers, and non-toxic environment that u/addbracket have this sub removed from him, and am given ownership. As there are two sides of the case, a "guilty" and "innocent" side relating to the content, I want those on the guilty side who see this to know..r/MakingAMurderer if given to me would be open to all with an even mixture of our mods as well as yours to prevent toxic behaviour and allow it to grow again. The wish to remove addbracket/NANS is one supported in the past by the makers of the documentary, Steven Avery's family and his attorney according to information I had received about their prevous contact to Listnook. I hope this can happen and we can show not everyone wants to be on Listnook for hateful or toxic reasons. Thank you for your time.

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[deleted] Nov 30, 2016 +219

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[deleted] Nov 30, 2016 +131

What about subs like SRS and SRD? Haven't we seen enough brigading and harassment coming out of these subs? The Donald is a cess pit but it generally seems to keep itself to itself. What about mods from extreme leftist troll subs taking over subs and destroying them? You can't argue you're taking a hands-off approach to subs, as described in the content policy, and then apply differing standards between subs. How are subs like /r/news allowed to remain as default subs when they're repeatedly caught showing political bias through censoring news that goes against their narrative? The Orlando shooting is the biggest example, where the only f****** front page hints at this developing story came from posts on other subs, such as /r/The_Donald. Ironically, had you taken these steps earlier to prevent such posts appearing in /r/all, it would have taken even longer to know what was happening out there. Posts in /r/news were deleted from people offering advice to people in the area - including suggestions on donating blood. That incident alone went one for days, and should have resulted in /r/news either losing it's default status or having the entire mod team removed. What about subs that use bots to ban people for posting in politically incorrect subs - even if they've never even visited the sub from which they are being banned? I'm banned from a whole bunch of subs I've never visited, such as /r/naturalhair and /r/offmychest. I have two accounts, mostly because I forgot my password on my other device. If I should inadvertently post in one of those subs from an alt, then I'm in breach of the content policy, as this would evading a ban. If you want Listnook to heal then be consistent in the application of Listnook rules and moderation. By all means turn this site in to cat pictures and dank memes - just set the same standards of behaviour for all political persuasions. Listnook has a long way to go in "healing". Nothing you've said here suggests sincerity.

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Random3222 Nov 30, 2016 +27

> While many users across the site found what I did funny, or appreciated that I was standing up to the bullies (I received plenty of support from users of r/the_donald), many others did not. Was this sentence really necessary? It attempts to trivialize what happened. I'm no fan of T_D, or Trump in general. I can sympathize with why you did it, but to try to validate it is pretty ridiculous. >I understand what I did has greater implications than my relationship with one community, and it is fair to raise the question of whether this erodes trust in Listnook. I hope our transparency around this event is an indication that we take matters of trust seriously. There has been so many accusations of admin vote manipulation, and other conspiracy theories around listnook for years. I had always taken them to be stupid conspiracy theories. I saw a thread about this incident before you responded, and just figured it was another garbage post. This one turned out to be true. Even if none of the other admin theories are true, it lends credibility to every future conspiracy theory on this site. This didn't just erode trust, it destroyed it. Once it's been shown you are willing to edit comments without a trace, why should we believe you aren't editing anything else. Editing post scores, deleting posts for advertisers, etc... >Listnook has always been a place where those voices can be heard. >Posts stickied on r/the_donald will no longer appear in r/all. As much as I hate seeing them, I think this is a huge mistake. Listnook isn't a place where voices can be heard if you start to implement rules specifically directed at a sublistnook. Even if this was the plan before all this, it is a horrible time to implement it. Is there any reason to think that once you start implementing sub specific rules, you will stop at T_D? What about doing the same for advertisers? You cannot claim to be a place where voices are heard, and a place a free speech (though listnook has certainly distanced itself from that comment) while silencing voices. I don't really care about T_D being silenced, but what happens when you decide to implement rules against something I do care about? Am I supposed to trust you on this now? >More than anything, I want Listnook to heal, and I want our country to heal And the way to heal both listnook and our country is through trust. I don't believe nearly half of the country is racist, sexist, xenophobic ect... What I do believe is that people in general are stubborn. America no longer trusts its media, nor its government, and when they hear those people who they no longer trust continually saying Donald Trump can't win, you can't vote for him, etc... their stubbornness kicks in. Its part ignorance, part stupidity, and a whole lot of 'f*** you, you can't tell me what to do.' This is why so many trump supporters can't tell you his policies, why they act surprised when he denies climate change, etc... Many supporters just know that the people they don't like, didnt want him to win. The whole enemy of my enemy thing, and look where it got us. This will probably get buried or downvoted, and I feel a bit nauseous from defending T_D, but the whole non-apology apology thing was pretty shitty. Listnook was built on trust. Trust that the algorithm was fair and the site wasn't being manipulated to spew advertising. Trust that the votes were real and not from bots or admin fuckery. Trust that what was said, was said by a real person, and that the words attached to the username were accurate. For me, that trust is completely gone.

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atrich Dec 1, 2016 +6

I'm getting here late, but maybe someone will see this anyhow. There were a lot of legitimate concerns people raised about the ability of site owners to edit comment content, especially when postings can be cited as evidence, quoted as the person, there are such things as verified celebrity accounts, etc. It's actually a lot of power for anyone, from /u/spez on down to database engineers, to have. Have you considered any form of cryptographically verifiable posts, such that edits made by people other than the user - even those with total control over the database - would be obviously forged? Some combination of hashing and public/private key cryptography? (I'm no security expert, I just know there are cryptographic schemes that can be used to verify the integrity and provenance of messages.)

6

[deleted] Nov 30, 2016 +71

Hey spez, instead of going after a sub because you disagree with its politics or it hurts your feewings, why dont you actually go after these active pedophile subs on listnook? Its quite hippocritical of you to attack us and let these subs even exist. r/pedoworld - "Watching Pedos R*** The Young" r/antipedophilebigotry/ - "A sublistnook made to denounce and expose anti-pedophiles bigots, who stigmatize and discriminate people based on their sexual orientation. If you are a young or teen pedophile and/or suffer from depression because of your orientation it would be a good advise to be very cautious about what entering here because you will read extremely disgusting and harmful things." r/hebephilia/ - "A sub-listnook about matters concerning hebephilia. Studies, stories, experiences, and unlike /r/jailbait, NO LEWD PICS." r/upvotedbecausepedo/ - "Because you know why you're here...Pedo Parardise" r/pedo101/ - "As long as it doesn't break listnook's content policy, you can discuss it here." r/pedochat/ - "A place for pedos and friends of pedos: Welcome to a place for the discussion of pedophilia." r/jailbaiter/ - "Pedo or not? Dear listnook:" r/cutenotpedo/ - "CUTE NOT PEDO" r/pedos/ - "Life isn't easy for us, we need support!" r/ephebophiles/ - "You know what it means! a sublistnook for ... ahem ... ephebophiles" r/webbies - "Jailbait + all webbies you can find" r/newbait/ = "Jailbait - New and improved!" r/jailbaitchronicles/ - "Tell your Jailbait tales here... Keep it real!!!" r/Jailbaitt - "a subtle attempt at restoring r/jailbait". r/tallJailbate - "A sublistnook to admire those jailbate that are over-developed and too-tall-for-there-age." r/jailbabe/ - "The /r/jailbait backup... or replacement ;-;" r/jailbait_/ -"jailbait pics & vids" r/LesbianJailbait - "Post your best lesbian jailbait pics!" r/jail_bait - "in defiance of listnook censorship, it's back! absolutely NO n*** pictures, requesting n*** pictures, offering n*** pictures, or anything else illegal." r/jailbait3/ - "Jailbait reborn, you know what to do!" r/WeirdDutchPedos/ - "." r/jailbaitStories - "This is the place to post and share your own jailbait stories. Tries stories and fantasy stories are welcomed." r/MaleBait/ - "No members of GOP or Catholic church allowed." r/Taboo_WEBCAM/ - "S*** and Naked Young Teens! Only sorted JailBait videos!" r/jailbaitmysterybox - "Pictures of jailbait of varied living status. Alive, dead, almost dead, just born, it's all fine, just don't give it away in the title of your link. That ruins the fun!" r/picsofinjuredjailbait - "This sublistnook is for Injured Jailbait enthusiasts. As a nice tie between deadjailbait and regular jailbait, we are obviously against full on nudity unless the subject is 18 or older. Pics of injured jailbait do not always have to be graphic either, they can be as little as a sprained ankle to as much as a bone sticking out of someones knee, please respect our members however and use the (G) tag for any possible gore that might be in your pictures." r/jailbait2 - "jb" r/malesjailbait - "Male Jailbait" r/ActualJailbait - "Actual Jailbait" r/tribesjailbait - "Jailbait: Tribes Edition" r/jailba1t - "JailBait" r/anorexicjailbait - "Anorexic Jailbait" r/nextjailbait - "The next JailBait". r/NotJB - "This sublistnook is kind of like /r/jailbait." r/definitelynotjailbait - "not jailbait. nope... nothing to see here." r/SelfPicJailbait - "Jailbaits taking pics of themselves. Post pics of jailbaits taking pictures of themselves" **Archived links (proof of Listnook hosting):** "Pedo" sublistnook search page 1 of 2: http://archive.is/ZqMEY "Pedo" sublistnook search page 2 of 2: http://archive.is/yr4az "Pedophile" sublistnook search page: http://archive.is/32DzJ "hebephilia" sublistnook search page: http://archive.is/npZUV "jailbait" sublistnook search page 1 of 5: http://archive.is/m7gQz "jailbait" sublistnook search page 2 of 5: http://archive.is/9oqqP "jailbait" sublistnook search page 3 of 5: http://archive.is/mW1zQ "jailbait" sublistnook search page 4 of 5: http://archive.is/yRvzs "jailbait" sublistnook search page 5 of 5: http://archive.is/wMbx4

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DanishDragon Dec 1, 2016 +11

Eh, might as well clarify on my case of /r/Torpedo - I was part of the esports organisation [Torpedo Gaming](https://torpedo.gg/), and asked if I could take over the sublistnook, seeing as it only had one post - never got around to getting it started on the side of esports before our division under Torpedo disbanded. Thanks for reminding me to leave the moderator team though /u/tickettoride98 who tagged me in a comment. Also requested if the head moderator could leave, so I could proper take over the sublistnook, but no response on that part. I have no relation to the others, and the only action I ever got to see on the sublistnook was one creepy modmail about Tor which made me realise what people also thought it could mean. Can't speak on behalf of the others linked to that sublistnook. I'm just on listnook for music and games. TL;DR - I got no clue of the original intentions with the sub, I joined to rebrand it for 'Torpedo Gaming'

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y-c-c Dec 1, 2016 +21

I'm sorry but this strikes me as a remorseful non-apology, that only got posted because the act was caught. I think there's a real issue here where the *CEO* of a company feels that it's within his right to violate an inherent trust in the content, and go in and secretly edit users' posts. I hate trolls and hate speech. The clear established way is to ban individual posts, sublistnooks, and users. As a reader and submitter, it's perfectly clear to everyone what has happened, and it sends a signal that hate speech is not tolerated. I definitely do not expect to read a post that has been secretly modified by Listnook for whatever purpose. This doesn't just apply to Listnook. I don't expect to go to Facebook and see my friend's post secretly edited, or go to Instagram to see some staff Photoshopping pictures they don't like on behalf of the user, or go to Gmail and see Larry Page changing my emails because I'm personally attacking him. Obviously, you have the technical ability to change posts. These are stored in a database somewhere and not exactly hard to modify. The problem is whether you *should*. Instead of saying "We will never do this again, and will have clear policies of post moderation", you shifted the discussion towards how to moderate r/all and r/the_donald. Honestly those are fine, but *not the point of this discussion* and is being used as a way to pivot the discussion away from the actual problem.

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TIFU by editing some comments and creating an unnecessary controversy.

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