ListNook

Takis12 6 days ago +794

It is a reasonable proposal, but.....I cannot help myself thinking there is a catch behind this announcement.

794

fretkat 6 days ago +350

The catch is that Turkey knows it wouldn't be included in a new NATO minus US, so they want to keep NATO alive and dodge the US.

350

reluctant_deity 6 days ago +504

Turkey is way too strategically important to not have them in NATO.

504

Vradlock 6 days ago +210

And has a huge active army at their disposal.

210

maverickhawk99 6 days ago +131

Second largest after the US (among NATO nations) I believe.

131

jakderrida 6 days ago +153

So few people understand this. It's not a club for developed westernized democracies. It's a defensive alliance. One in which Turkey happens to be more important than most any other member.

153

fretkat 6 days ago +11

Well, they are never mentioned in the Plan B from our politicians and in our media. The “new NATO” that is proposed is always Canada plus EU and Norway. So Turkey can also understand that they are not included in the talks behind closed doors. It doesn't mean that they are not strategically important. It could also mean that Turkey blocking the entry of Finland/Sweden a few years ago made them seem unreliable. We have seen with the US that we need full trust in all members. And with Finland/Sweden in the EU, they have a better position to bring that up. But this is just speculation, the only fact is that they are not mentioned in the NATO Plan Bs, so it's expected that Turkey wants to keep the current NATO minus US.

11

the_jokes_on_u 5 days ago +3

Not as much as you think. They’ve actively tried their hardest to not allow their land to be used as strategically as it can be. Outside of Incirlik, Turkey isn’t useful anymore. Besides they’re a thorn in the side of coalition and NATO forces in Iraq and Syria. Constantly attacking SDF bases, jamming US aircraft and denying usage of airspace/land. Oh and purchasing Russian equipment is just a massive security risk. Almost like they forgot why they joined NATO in the first place. Not to mention their beef with Greece. Also once again, the Kurds.

3

KoriJenkins 6 days ago +2

Turkey also routinely threatens Greece and currently occupies about half of an EU member state.

2

bbceronimo 6 days ago +20

No-one threatens Greece, everyday Turkish citizen does not even care or think about Greece. Greek politicians and media pumping the fear to gain internal political advantage. Greece is not even mentioned in the Turkish news, political statements or in the media coverage, once in every 6 months MAYBE. Even then people usually say “cute” and move onto the next channel. Enough with this propaganda, stop spreading false information.

20

puzzledpanther 6 days ago +48

fkn lol Your own president threatens Greece. Or do you already forget the "we'll come at night" comments Erdogan said? Or "this missile can hit Athens"? Always your excuse is "noone in Tutkey cares for Greece" yet you have a Casus Belli on them and all your political parties have very nationalist agendas. Your opposition even said that Erdogan was too soft on Greece.

48

fashraf 5 days ago +9

Just an outsider anecdote. I went on a trip to turkey and Greece. When I mentioned Greece while in Turkey, no one said anything out of the ordinary. When I mentioned turkey while in Greece, people would talk smack about turkey.

9

puzzledpanther 5 days ago +2

Maybe because Turkey occupied Greece for 400 years and still threatens it's sovereignity today?

2

bbceronimo 6 days ago -26

Not an Erdo supporter but can you share the link where he says “this missile can hit Athens” ? And this “We come at night” was for Syria, not for Greece lol. You guys are delusional. My guy, I’m in everyday life here, interacting with every level of socio-economic group of people within society. If I say no-one cares about Greece, trust me no-one cares about it lol.

-26

puzzledpanther 6 days ago +22

>Not an Erdo supporter Still a Turkish nationalist though right? >can you share the link where he says “this missile can hit Athens” ? https://www.politico.eu/article/erdogan-warns-greece-that-turkish-missiles-can-reach-athens%EF%BF%BC/ >And this “We come at night” was for Syria https://www.euractiv.com/short_news/erdogan-threatens-greek-islands-with-invasion-at-night/ >You guys are delusional. Sure thing buddy. >My guy, I’m in everyday life here, interacting with every level of socio-economic group of people within society. If I say no-one cares about Greece, trust me no-one cares about it lol. Sure thing. You just happen to constantly vote for people who threaten Greece as a hobby. Their rhetoric has an audience.

22

bbceronimo 6 days ago

No - I’m not a blind nationalist but just like every person who logically supports and likes his own country. Don’t you like your country ? Thanks for the links but first - It is in 2022, just before the 2023 elections. He always throws these kind of b.s like every other politician before the elections to get the support of nationalists but acts totally the opposite once he is elected. (Greece literally landed on the Turkish mainland with a zodiac boat chasing the immigrants and he literally didn’t say a single word lol.) I am not defending what he said in those speeches, he always says these “extreme” or out of blue stuff before the elections to gather maybe the 5% of idiotic nationalist votes at most. Even people here know it’s just for the votes. - I found the original video in Turkish, he does not say “these missle can reach Athens” out of blue. He says “Now once we started producing our own missiles, we see some panic in Greece as they are saying’ “oh no, their missile can reach Athens”. Of course it will have the capability to cover these distances” - For the “we come at night” thing , he says “we are ready to defend the status of the islands according to the international law. They should stay disarmed according to the agreements and if we see the opposite, we are ready to come at night” Don’t make me defend Erdo. If we start digging into what the Greek politicians say about Turkey, we will see many and MANY most extreme and absurd threats against Turkey in everyday Greek media. Greece is not the reason people vote for Erdo here. It has never been. It has deep internal Turkish political & historical reasons. Greece does not even carry any weight on people’s decision-making on who to vote for. I don’t remember the last time I talked to someone about Greece. Get off your high horse man.

0

puzzledpanther 6 days ago +2

>No - I’m not a blind nationalist I didn't say you were blind but your arguments are certainly nationalistic. >Thanks for the links but Is that it? You're going to give me bullshit excuses for how a PRESIDENT of a country talks about their neighbours? And then you'll tell me "lol we don't even think of you lol"? >Don’t make me defend Erdo. I'm not making you do anything. You are defending him on your own. >If we start digging into what the Greek politicians say about Turkey, we will see many and MANY most extreme and absurd threats against Turkey in everyday Greek media. Of course we have some idiot nationalist politicians... but please don't pretend it resembles the scale of how it is in Turkey. Also please show me a Greek prime minister saying things like Erdo says. Also which of the two countries has a Casus Belli? >Get off your high horse man. Why do you think I am on a high horse? Because I'm quoting what your President says? You are the one quoting "Greece does not even carry any weight on people’s decision-making on who to vote for"... as if you need to shit on your neighbour in order to make yourself feel prouder about your own country. Carbon print copy of a nationalist. >Greece does not even carry any weight on people’s decision-making on who to vote for. It absolutely plays a part on how some people vote. Turkey is a heavily nationalistic country. I never said you guys walk around thinking about Greece all the time so I'm not sure why you think you need to make the argument that you don't.

2

Durin_VI 6 days ago +15

You ignored the other part of the comment.

15

bbceronimo 6 days ago +46

The island was divided into two parts waaaay before (70s) Cyprus was accepted into EU. It’s not like Turkey woke up one day and decided to occupy an EU member. And the reason Turkey intervened in the 1970s is a long and detailed discussion. There was an ethnical cleansing of Turks on the island by EOKA. If you want to read more I’m leaving the article below. It’s just one of many like that. I’m liberal with a strong hate on the Erdo government but also fed-up and tired of all the b.s propaganda and the hypocrisy of EU towards Turkey. https://akel.org.cy/massacres-of-turkish-cypriots-committed-by-greek-cypriot-fascism/?lang=en

46

Mozan9 6 days ago +14

I mean there is nothing to comment there reunification plan by UN was agreed by Turkish cypriots but rejected by Greek cypriots: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annan\_Plan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annan_Plan) Also Cyprus is stable with no conflicts for years, no more ethnical cleansing and coups by far right groups.

14

threep03k64 5 days ago +3

> I mean there is nothing to comment there reunification plan by UN was agreed by Turkish cypriots but rejected by Greek cypriots The Annan Plan was rejected by Greek Cypriots for incredibly valid reasons, including that it would have effectively granted wholly disproportionate representation to Turkish Cypriots given the population levels, the financial burden of implementation primarily falling on Greek Cypriots (which would have included reimbursement for confiscation of their property following the invasion), the failure to deal with Turkish colonisation during occupation, and cementing Turkish influence over the country. Using the plan to suggest that Greek Cypriots are the barrier to reunification is about as useful as suggesting Ukraine is the barrier to peace with Russia for rejecting the US proposal which included ceding the Donbas. The Annan Plan is a fantastic example of the absolute uselessness of the UN at resolving these sort of issues.

3

Hyperpuma 5 days ago

What an absolute load of c***. The only reason Greek Cypriots refused the plan is because they thought they could get a better deal once they became a full EU member. The fact that EU accepted an apartheid Cyprus in its ranks is an abomination in itself, which is why the whole Cyprus problem is forever frozen. Turkey will never sit at the negotiation table again now that the table is stacked against it due to EU. EU should've waved the membership carrot in front of both Cyprus and Turkey and tie accession to reunification to ensure cooperation. Comparing the Cyprus reunification plan to the situation in Ukraine is absolutely delusional, considering that both sides negotiated for the Annan plan, and both sides agreed to put it to a referendum.

0

Able-Swing-6415 6 days ago +3

Yea we Need to stop the Russian Navy from exiting the black sea because Europe combined could never do that kinetically like the Ukrainians.. what f****** scenario are people painting in their head. If Ukraine can hold Russia at bay damn near indefinitely than the EU will be just fine without the most morally abhorrent NATO member states in their People literally just dropping "well they can close the black sea access" like there's this really ominous naval threat in that little pond. Beyond nukes Russia is no threat to the EU. China is busy with its backyard, so the only credible threat is the US which doesn't care about f****** black sea access. For a purely defensive war there really is no threat where access to the black sea is relevant at all.

3

WeddingPKM 6 days ago +7

Closing the Black Sea really only means anything to Russia. Everyone else with Black Sea ports have plenty of land connections available to trade goods, or is Turkey themselves. Even if Turkey switched sides and stayed giving a free ride to Russia, Ukraine has proved themselves more than capable of choking Black Sea exports. It’s not 1914 anymore, like you said the Black Sea just isn’t all that important.

7

Piggywonkle 6 days ago +2

It's important so long as Russia is important, but Russia has burned up a ton of standing on the world stage with little to show for it. The entire concept of European defense will have to be rewritten if Russia becomes irrelevant.

2

Able-Swing-6415 6 days ago +3

But how? How is it important? Their navy is garbage. They do have some strengths but even when the Soviet navy was never a particular threat. They just lost their only "aircraft carrier" by neglect.

3

Piggywonkle 5 days ago +2

Like I said, Russia has been rapidly moving towards irrelevance, but if they were hypothetically moving in the opposite direction, it'd be a huge help with military logistics, projecting force, deploying drones, and utilizing radar for air support, even with a relatively minimal navy. We've seen Ukraine accomplish quite a bit at sea with far less than even Russia has now.

2

monkeydrunker 5 days ago +1

I hate to be 'that guy' but actual military analysts don't sound quite as confident when talking about NATO minus the US's ability to stop Russia. Russia has surprising strengths, not the least being their ability to drag the fight into the gutter then beat you with experience.

1

Heronymous-Anonymous 5 days ago +2

It’s not important. There are so many choke points in the Mediterranean that Russia getting out of the Black Sea would really just trap them into running a series of Gauntlets between various straits that are dominated by NATO or NATO-friendly nations. So they get through the Bosporus? Now they have to navigate the Aegean, where Greek Anti ship missiles could be anywhere and there are no “safe” navigable areas. If they get through the Aegean, they have to then squeak past Italy and Malta, which can also cover the entirety of those straits with missiles and aircraft. Then they have to get through the Strait of Gibraltar, covered by Spanish and British missiles on one side and Moroccan weapons on the other. The Russian Navy would never be able to operate freely in the Mediterranean, it is far too well controlled by NATO.

2

Aggressive_Lie_4446 6 days ago +2

Not really. But it really depends. There are many hoping that in 2028, Erdogan and the AKP are gone for good

2

Haru1st 6 days ago +1

They are as strategically important as politically problematic.

1

Atlas85 5 days ago +1

You can say the same of the US. But its pointless to have countries in an alliance you can't trust and doesn't share neither values or objectives with. Turkey plays both sides whenever convenient.

1

ConcentrateDirect523 5 days ago +1

This user knows their jography

1

WeddingPKM 6 days ago +1

That was true during the Cold War due to the Soviet border. They are far less vital today as Russia quite honestly isn’t much of a threat, and they don’t control access to the Middle East as they did historically. It would make sense for a post NATO alliance to just be European nations.

1

Kenichi2233 5 days ago +1

Turkey has been a thorn in nato side for at least a decade

1

trojan_man16 6 days ago +1

For those that don’t know, Turkey controls the Bosporus strait. That controls access to the Black Sea, and more importantly keeps the Russian Navy bottled up in the Black Sea.

1

TheSleepyTruth 5 days ago +1

So is the US, which has more firepower than the rest of NATO combined. Trump has been an absolute menace for EU relations, and it is a good wake up call that the EU must have the capability to be somewhat self-sufficient without the US. But i would not make any brash decisions regarding the US in NATO until after Trump is out of office. There is a decent chance the next admin could be sane again and back to normal. Wait to see if this is an anomalie or a new status quo before making decisions that can threaten the future of the continent. Putin's biggest dream is seeing a military divorce between the US and Europe, thus i wouldnt be excited to give him that unless the US is truly proven to be a lost cause across multiple administrations and there is no other choice. I think current admin is unprecedented and clearly not the historical norm. We shouldnt make massive brash decisions that will carry on for generations based on short term fleeting personalities throwing a wrench in.

1

RexLatro 5 days ago +1

Even *if* the US "goes back to normal" after Trump, you realize the rest of the world will always be looking at American, wondering "Well yeah, but what about the *next* guy?" from here on out, right? Even with how influential the US is around the world, the actions of Trump and co. really have made multiple countries seriously consider "are any advantages we get from our previous relationship with the United States really worth all this if they do this again?" This is how badly the US has fucked up by electing Trump for a *second* term. I honestly don't think there's any going back to 'before' at this point, and I feel many people (especially Americans) don't fully realize this at this moment in time

1

Phr33k101 5 days ago +1

Trump does not exist in isolation though. Even if he does not succeed in leaving NATO during his term, he has done irreparable damage to the credibility of the US as an alliance partner. Even if he were to be followed by a "sane" successor, there would be no guarantee that in a few years we would not see a MAGA resurgence. Furthermore, the world has seen the US president threaten to annex Greenland - the territory of one of its NATO allies - and how did Congress and the American people respond? This is not a Trump issue. This is a failure at all levels of the American political apparatus. The alliance cannot be at the whim of American voters every four years, and it cannot exist if half of America's politicians are willing to sanewash its destruction for better chances of reelection. The assumption right now is, and should be, that America cannot be trusted - at least until they demonstrate through *multiple* consecutive administrations that they are willing to be a reliable partner once more

1

nvbtable 6 days ago +45

If NATO is serious about containing Russia they should definitely include the country with the largest military outside of US, and with control of access to the Black Sea.

45

sweetcinnamonpunch 6 days ago +51

No clue why you would think they wouldn't be included

51

OhWellImRightAgain 6 days ago +8

Because the "new NATO" is an EU army + Canada.

8

Quedreneese 6 days ago +39

Why would the NATO remove one of their most important members thats mostly cooperating?

39

OhWellImRightAgain 6 days ago -10

The EU is already talking about an EU army and it doesn't want unreliable partners. That's a lesson they learned the hard way with Donald Trump. Erdogan is even more unreliable - remember when Turkey blocked Finland's and Sweden's NATO bid just 3 years ago, because they're "PKK supporters" or something? Nobody wants that shit in their alliance. Remember when they threatened to close NATO bases in Turkey and countries actually removed personnel and weapons from there? Remember when they bought S-400? As for the politics of Turkey, Erdogan might be better than what's coming next. Turkey is a country stuck in the Ottoman period, thinks themselves as a superpower, threatens neighbors, imprisons politicians and journalists, it's an authoritarian regime which again, might be better than what's coming after Erdogan. That's not a reliable military partner. Not sure how you think Turkey is "mostly cooperating".

-10

Fenris_uy 6 days ago +7

Any defense of Europe needs control of the Bosphorus, so they aren't going to leave Turkey outside of it.

7

EndOfDecadence 6 days ago +8

>The EU is already talking about an EU army and it doesn't want unreliable partners. Nope, Sanchez said something about it, but this whole EU army is hugely unpopular in Europe. And more over, its absolutely not needed. We have the capabilities, there is a joint command when needed, without the need to make it an ''EU army''. The more likely scenario is that it will be a NATO minus the US. Turkey is still of enormous importance strategically speaking in containing Russia, and that would still be the goal of an EU led NATO. Classical example of rather having a Turkey pissing inwards then outwards. In this new EU constellation what is most important is that European leaders learn to speak the language of power again.

8

adrr 5 days ago

Because Israel is going to hit Turkey and NATO doesn’t want to get involved. Israel’s press is already calling Turkey the new Iran and it’s going to boil over with both countries in Syria.

0

Vierenzestigbit 6 days ago +31

Removing control of the bosporus from new_NATO would be idiotic

31

bbceronimo 6 days ago +1

I like how you put down “new_Nato”. Def. a computer science geek.

1

darknekolux 6 days ago +2

an old one, from the MS-DOS era.

2

MehmetPasha1453 6 days ago +13

only clueless idiots (like the "turkey out of naruto" crowd) would not include türkiye in a new security alliance

13

Darkone539 6 days ago +8

>The catch is that Turkey knows it wouldn't be included in a new NATO minus US, so they want to keep NATO alive and dodge the US. They absolutely would be.

8

Jim_Hawkins5057 6 days ago +7

Right, just the second largest nato army (by far) and an incredibly important strategic location. What were your arguments again?

7

Commercial_Train5694 5 days ago +1

That would just be strategic blunder in so many levels. Turkey has a very powerful army and geographically it might be the most important member. It controls Bosporus and is basically a bridge to Middle East.

1

AprilsMostAmazing 6 days ago -1

Who would kick out Turkey?

-1

Primary-Debate-549 6 days ago -20

So Turkey is giving signs that they want to conquer other countries again, and proposes the western world starts depending on Turkey for protection? I wonder what the motive here is ... ( In case anyone doesn't know: this here is the AKP's ideology ... [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Ottomanism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Ottomanism) )

-20

Sportfreunde 6 days ago +36

I think it's the other way around. They know Israel will come for them and the US is trying to destroy nato to allow that.

36

BekanntesteZiege 6 days ago +1

neo ottomanism is a catchy term for the end of Turkish isolation and nothing else. Ottomanism isn't a relevant movement within Turkey with only 3% support for the return of Ottomans per polls.

1

Fli_fo 6 days ago -32

One day Nato will be very sorry that they ever included Turkey.

-32

No_Conversation_9325 6 days ago +23

Turkey is a crucial NATO member, if only they dealt with their dictator!

23

troelsbjerre 6 days ago +8

... very much like some other NATO member I can think of.

8

No_Conversation_9325 6 days ago +7

Not nearly! Erdogan’s been in charge for decades and is just power hungry, Trump is like a demented Erdogan on speed.

7

EndOfDecadence 6 days ago +251

Actually quite funny that Trump has not been talking about Erdogan a single time with this whole NATO stuff. Goes to show how much he hates the EU.

251

yubnubster 6 days ago +126

He loves his fellow autocrats.

126

BasicMatter7339 6 days ago +42

"We've been friends for a long time, actually, even for four years when I was in exile – unfairly, as it turns out. Rigged election. This guy knows about rigged elections better than anyone" *points at erdogan*

42

yubnubster 6 days ago +6

He's got to get all his best (worst) ideas from somewhere!

6

phluidity 6 days ago +14

Slight nit, Trump doesn't love autocrats, Trump loves people who suck up to him and tell him he's amazing. It is just that autocrats are much more likely to do that since they don't need to listen to their populace and are also aware of how easily effective it is. Autocrats who stand up to him are still hated by Trump. See Maduro and Khomeini.

14

_jump_yossarian 6 days ago +5

He allowed Erdogan's goons to beat Turkish-Americans ... on US soil.

5

SunMachiavelliTzu 6 days ago +3

Erdogan is not white enough to be considered a friend by Trump and the MAGAts

3

RSquared 6 days ago +14

Nah, turkey has been cultivating ties with maga since that traitor Flynn got involved with their plan to kidnap a dissident cleric in Pennsylvania. Flynn got convicted of being an unregistered agent of a foreign power, then was pardoned and given a million dollars by Trump.

14

yubnubster 6 days ago +29

Never bothered him with wee Kimmy Jong Un.

29

grathontolarsdatarod 6 days ago +1

What are you taking about. He BECAME him.

1

Kondikteur 6 days ago +3

Cmon, he might be a dicator, but for all that I know, Kim Jong Un has not talke about wanting to f*** his daughter.

3

grathontolarsdatarod 6 days ago +1

Okay true. They don't seem to have that problem in north Korea.

1

yubnubster 6 days ago +1

Everyone needs inspiration in their lives.

1

Shintaro1989 6 days ago +2

There are rumors that Israel and Turkey will clash over Syrian territory and that Trump is willing to leave NATO so he can support Israel against Turkey. It sounds very made up but both sides recently really updated their rethoric.

2

loskiarman 6 days ago +12

Turkey is the only country that can realistically challenge Israel in the region when Israel oversteps like usual. Also Turkey is probably the only country that cares about those countries if not for religious/historical communion reasons because Turkey will be the first step when refugee waves start from region getting destabilized further. Israel realistically probably barely can hold air superiority against Turkey right now but Turkey is making leaps of advencements on that front and Israel can't wait 10 years and have only the nuclear threat as an option.

12

S3HN5UCHT 6 days ago +151

Trumps too manic to be a world leader. Dudes both f****** bonkers and stupid

151

OakLegs 6 days ago +58

Yea I mean that should've been obvious to anyone who's heard him talk since about 2003

58

Cagnazzo82 6 days ago +14

He is a diabolical individual who has nothing to lose since this is his last term. And so he is sabotaging the US's future to the maximum level.

14

PowerOfUnoriginality 6 days ago +56

The US threatened to invade their own allies. You don't just walk back like nothing happened after that

56

BingBing- 6 days ago +88

I don't believe i'm saying this, but Turkey is right. The guy is delulu.

88

hotinmyigloo 6 days ago -21

Turkey is the grown up in the room

-21

cytokine7 6 days ago +35

You can’t be serious.

35

footpole 6 days ago +6

Compared to the us? It definitely is. Which one is posting memes of themselves as Jesus again?

6

hotinmyigloo 6 days ago +6

Ooof thanks for the downvotes, folks haha. The Trump admin is a trainwreck and can't be trusted, sorry

6

jack5624 6 days ago -13

I’m starting to think Iran is also a grown up. Almost all countries are grown up’s compared to the US administration.

-13

Gollum_Quotes 6 days ago +20

You're joking? Iran massacred tens of thousands of their citizens for protesting. They still barbarically publicly execute people including children for showing dissent.

20

Samusen 6 days ago -5

Iran and the US are both just disgusting. They're probably 2 of the most evil countries in the past 2 decades. Iran has flooded weapons into the middle east and backed dictators. Like Assad whom has used chemical weapons on his own people. Turkey just wants to get rid of Israel and the Kurds they don't care about the US.

-5

jack5624 6 days ago +1

At least they act rationally to their aims and are predictable. You can be an adult and he a horrible person but that is better than being a horrible person and being unpredictable.

1

graviousishpsponge 6 days ago -6

Threatening to invade Israel is a grown up thing to do?

-6

loskiarman 6 days ago +8

Warning the country that is razing cities to the ground and killing children and health workers alike to stop isn't a grown up thing to do?

8

n00bi3pjs 6 days ago +9

Turkey isn't threatening to invade Israel. It is the other way round

9

Exciting-Ad-7083 6 days ago +41

Everyone should be resetting ties with America at this rate and working out ways to reduce their reliance on them.

41

SoulBonfire 6 days ago +20

America should be resetting ties with Trump.

20

Samusen 6 days ago +7

Kick him the f*** out

7

sleeplessinreno 5 days ago +3

Gonna probably have to bounce johnson first. That guy has single handily kept congress on shutdown regularly. That one is on Louisiana tbh.

3

MercantileReptile 5 days ago +2

Lousiana may be a red state, but Johnson could not keep his job without party support. As with everything else, the entire Republican party is at fault. Every single one.

2

BRUTAL_ANAL_SMASHING 5 days ago +2

Thankfully we set up that only two terms thingy.. And don’t come at we with any what ifs.. because I don’t care until what if becomes a thing, then it’s a problem.

2

SnooRegrets6428 6 days ago +8

Why bother? Give it 2.5 more years

8

DoctorLudnik_717 6 days ago +6

And then afterwards, wait 4 years to wipe away any potential progress?

6

katalysis 5 days ago +1

Are you suggesting that Trump will be president in 4 more years?

1

Commercial_Train5694 5 days ago +1

Figures like Stephen Miller & Hegseth already proof that MAGA ideology won't die with Trump

1

DoctorLudnik_717 5 days ago +1

I'm expecting his declining health to handle that before it gets to that point. But no, I'm suggesting that after we get a normal president again in 2.5 years, my idiot countrymen will elect another republican and wipe away any progress after said normal pres's 4 years are up, and then we're right back to where we started.

1

RoaringPity 6 days ago +1

That's what we did the first time

1

Foamrocket66 5 days ago +1

Because millions of Americans voted for this. There are deeper issues at play here than "just" Trump.

1

Fabricati_Diem_Pvn 6 days ago +29

It bears to remember that Turkey has the largest standing army in NATO after the US.

29

Thurak0 6 days ago +49

> NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte has said he understood ⁠Trump's frustrations with the alliance, but that the "large majority of European nations" had been helpful to Washington's war effort in Iran. God damn it. This is weak as f***. NATO nations are not participating, because this is an offensive war from Israel and the US and there is no obligation at all to help. That the UK is actually allowing tankers and bombers for "defensive missions" to operate is a huge gift for the US from them. When Turkey invaded Syria's north years ago they knew that that was *their* operation and not a NATO thing. But well... of course the current US government is too stupid.

49

Doughtnutz 6 days ago +12

But you cannot trust Trump or his administration so resetting ties means nothing. Now, if the Trump regime was gone and a decent administration was in place, then yes it would be good to reset ties with America, but not the Trump regime.

12

fiftyfivepercentoff 5 days ago +7

Release the Epstein files!

7

Brilliant_Version344 6 days ago +19

Turkyie is correct but the trump administration should also learn to respect allies, not insult them and consult with them aswell

19

GreatGojira 6 days ago +2

Trump insults his own allies. He's a wannabe dictator

2

nightninja13 6 days ago +1

While trump has power this won't happen.

1

JohnBPrettyGood 6 days ago +3

The letters need to be changed to NOTUS

3

jsnxander 6 days ago +3

The actual adherents to the alliance nations can certainly reduce the voice and influence of the US. They just need to do so without worsening their own economies and safety. I think that begins with a BUY-NATO defense spending policy across all nations that somehow favors actual European manufacturing.

3

nightninja13 6 days ago +2

This is where there is a large deficit from Europe and world expectations. NATO has consistently relied on US support militarily. NATO nations have allowed the usa too much authority over years of not fully owning up to their own role. This has changed somewhat over the last 10 years but it's still what leads to impotence in our relationship. It works well if there is a leader of the USA that is sane. We got trump. This means that the imbalance has hit some reality checks that hopefully improve NATO and the world but it's been a long time coming. Economically this is happening at a rediculously late hour. We are going to see some bumpy spots but hopefully the USA course corrects.

2

jsnxander 5 days ago +2

This.

2

Mba1956 6 days ago +6

Trump thought threatening to leave NATO would bring the member countries in line at the same time it was waging financial war on them. Instead it is a message of sorry to see you go, but please shut the door on your way out. NATO with a reliably ally in the US is obviously stronger, but NATO including the US as an unreliable partner is actually weaker than without it. Trump has proven previous skeptics right and now a post US NATO is being created. Time to get the gulf states involved, maybe add Australia and others and make it a global force.

6

Bluebaronbbb 6 days ago +3

Bankrupted America, crazy shhhs

3

[deleted] 6 days ago +2

[deleted]

2

sopheroo 6 days ago +2

I assure you JD Vance is not gonna make things better.

2

Reddvox 6 days ago +2

No matter the topic, but since yesterday, I read Turkey....I hope Hungary...

2

katalysis 5 days ago +2

I think the silver lining to come out of this potential divorce is that EU will finally be incentivized to contribute to their own collective defense at a minimally viable level. And Spain refusing to contribute equally will be felt as a problem.

2

phido3000 6 days ago +3

Everyone in NATO should try to build up as much independent military capability as possible. Even if the US changes its mind (which it won't, Trump is reflecting exactly what is going on in American minds on this issue - America has problems and NATO doesn't or can't help them so sit somewhere between apathy or dislike). Workout how NATO would function without US leadership or equipment. Which should have always have been baked into NATO. Eventually there will be a conflict between China and the US, and what is NATO's planning then? Ask for the American to divert resources to protect Europe? <24 months to work out the details. If China takes Taiwan, the US will be forced to pull all its resources out of Europe. If the US faces Civil collapse its forces would also be recalled, or ineffective. Heck even a really bad financial collapse could force the withdrawal and massive spending cuts.

3

Royal-Hunter3892 6 days ago +5

Forget about NATO resetting ties with Trump, the way things are going there is a high possibility Trump might pull out US from NATO . There are also theories that claim US can't do anything against Turkey as long as either of them are a NATO member .

5

TheProuDog 6 days ago +6

why would US do anything against Turkey

6

Nyx87 5 days ago +2

> there is a high possibility Trump might pull out US from NATO . Trump cannot unilaterally pull the US out of NATO. The [NDAA of fiscal year 2024](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Defense_Authorization_Act_for_Fiscal_Year_2024#NATO_withdrawal) prevents it without an act of 2/3s of the Senate or act of Congress.

2

veculus 6 days ago +4

Shouldn't it say "Trump should reset ties with NATO" either? What the f*** did the rest of NATO do while Trump actively alienized them? But yeah, sucker up to the pro russian buddy of pedos just so he can sell you fighter jets cheaper or whatever.

4

Minimum_Run_890 6 days ago +2

Türkiye is sounding like the adult in the room here.

2

Soft-Ingenuity2262 6 days ago +2

I say the US should reset presidency. But what the f*** do I know.

2

QuirkyWish3081 6 days ago +4

Nah f*** Trump.

4

maddog2271 6 days ago +2

I respect Turkey and all but the fact is that this isn’t their decision. The US has gone psychotic and there is no going back. Seriously listening to NATO members talk like this is like listening to a victim of spousal abuse excuse it by saying that they just need to remember not to set the abusive partner off and things will be ok. It’s not going to be ok. Those days are over.

2

Thin-Discipline1673 6 days ago +1

It takes two to tango.

1

Capital_Resident_872 6 days ago +1

I miss the times when we thought NATO was a one for all and all for one type situation. Now country A can actively make territorial threats against country B and country C will play apologist for country A. I shouldn't say country A. It doesn't need a variable. The only country allowed to do this while getting close to no reaction is the US.

1

upachimneydown 6 days ago +1

NATO should kick the US out.

1

Strangedreamest 6 days ago -2

Good, USA needs to be kicked out of NATO, they're way too deranged

-2

lookatmeman 6 days ago -5

NATO is done. At the very best the US will withdraw and go isolationist after this. They can do this because they are big enough and have everything they need. Europe not so much. Without global trade and the world before this we are in serious trouble. Russia has signalled in actions by committing to a war economy its intentions. Here in the UK we have our leaders clinging to international law while our navy has more admirals than ships. The days of international law and stability are over. Europe needs to get a grip or slip into irrelevance or maybe something much worse.

-5

nerdyPagaman 6 days ago +7

Russia is fucked. It can rebuild, but so can we. I think Europe realises it needs to rearm - and it will.

7

CGI_OCD 6 days ago +4

Fascinating how suddenly everybody on listnook is an expert in geopolitics....

4

DannyDOH 6 days ago +6

The US can’t defend itself without allies in modern warfare. Leaving NATO would be a death spiral for the US militarily and economically. The best thing Americans could hope for is that NATO allies don’t really take them seriously and basically continue with most functions of the alliance. But there’s no way Congress would ever pass this because even in there more than 2/3 of the members aren’t dumb enough to not realize the stakes.

6

upachimneydown 6 days ago +1

And the US is heavily reliant on other countries buying its arms and arms systems--take NATO away and you also take that away.

1

rapsoulish 6 days ago +2

Hey just think about it, US joining the BRICS and saying bye bye to Europe. Then we would be Fked. I don't like the power hungriness of the US, but I would rather them not cooperating with the other world powers to completely control the rest of the world.

2

Surfer_Rick 6 days ago -1

The worst person you know just made a great point

-1

Ultra_Metal 6 days ago -5

If anyone does not belong in NATO, it is Turkey, led by an Islamic fundamentalist dictator.

-5

PapayaMan4 6 days ago -4

Same with Turkey lol Erdogan is a terrorist

-4

McShoobydoobydoo 5 days ago

How about no?

0

jack5624 6 days ago -2

Honestly, I think the US should just be kicked out of NATO at this point. The US’s provocative actions increase the likelihood they will be targeted and thus article 5 will be triggered dragging the UK, Canada and Europe into a war provoked by the US.

-2

irondethimpreza 6 days ago +1

Let's be real, nobody is responding to a hypothetical article 5 invocation by the US at this point.

1

tokhar 6 days ago -7

Turkey.. .who has been holding NATO hostage for advantage, and has decidedly played well with Russia… Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

-7

Turkey says NATO should reset ties with Trump at next summit, prepare for future

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