UK passes bill that will eventually ban cigarette purchases

Hazel Cheeseman sounds like a name I would make up on the spot in a panic.

No, gosh. No one gets it. Nicotine is one of the most studied substances in the world. It is probably one of the best stimulants we have. Now, as a result, there a multitude of other ways to consume nicotine that do not involve inhaling tar and other substances inside a cigarette/from tobacco. They are an order of magnitude safer than a cigarette. Alcohol, on the other hand, has no alternative method of consumption that is safer. This act doesn’t ban whatever else like vapes or nicotine pouches (tobacco pouches are a different thing) specifically because of that. As a result: - Other nicotine based substances aren’t banned. Only cigarettes. - There won’t be as much of an incentive for a black market like prohibition in the US at all unless someone wants to consume nicotine via the most harmful method out of a selection. (Australia made Vaping prescription only, hence it didn’t work there). - Alcohol has no alternative methods of reproducing its effects. Once people understand that, maybe this comparison would stop happening. It has no basis in reality. This approach is unique. It's the first time a government has tried to ban the method (combustion) while leaving the molecule (nicotine) legal. Their logic is that if a 14yo never starts the smoking ritual, they won't miss it. They'll only ever know the cleaner nicotine versions. We genuinely don't know if this sort of “light” Prohibition works, it's never been tried on this scale. This is literal harm reduction in practice. If you promote the legalisation of drugs, this is quite literally what you want. Because (if it works) it proves what advocacy groups have been saying for years which is that legalisation allows safer alternatives to be created.

Yes but the cost to the UK of smoking far outweighs that £27.6 billion in lost economic productivity £1.82 billion to the NHS £13.9 billion in social care costs to local authorities £332 million in fire-related costs https://ash.org.uk/media-centre/news/press-releases/new-figures-show-cost-of-smoking-to-society-in-england-dwarfs-tobacco-tax-revenue

I think future conservative governments will poke holes in the ban… Almost certainly for cigars, possibly for pipe tobacco products. 

prohibition just doesnt work though. they will just smuggle them from France.

> Instead of banning the entire country from smoking and cigarettes overnight, it'll be phased out slowly. Exactly. And if you need proof, just look at how effective the marijuana ban has been. There's absolutely no one today who smokes illicit and unregulated weed on a daily basis recreationally because they simply can't find it for sale anywhere. This is the dawn of a new day!

Also because, as the UK tobacco market gets grayer, less shelf space will be allocated and fewer companies will brother importing them.

So people will just go around legal markets like they did here in Australia when the government tried to tax it out of existence. People will not stop liking nicotine in the future. Why can't people see this?

How are you supposed to push laws micro managing a population of individual choice if you have nothing to micromanage?

How about letting people live their lives? Maybe some of us enjoy tobacco like others enjoy wine

Listnook's response to this news is really eye opening and honestly depressing. Zero critical thinking, just the same old tired argument that a ban will create some black-market superpower. What kid, in 10-15 years time, is going to go to some dodgy dealer and buying f****** cigarettes of all things.

The only weird and unbelievable thing is how people who are ok with the concept of “You, as a future adult, will never be legally allowed to buy this product because of your birth date.” exist. What happened to “my body, my choice?”. It’s a huge breach of bodily autonomy, not to mention, it literally creates unequal adult rights by birth date. Two adults can be one day apart in age, but one is legally allowed to buy tobacco forever and the other is banned forever. That is a very awkward and nonsensical legal line. And I say this as someone who hates smoking and smokers. Jesus christ.

Yeah maybe there will be a band of folk of like 10 years where this is weird that their 50 year old mate can buy and the 49 year old can’t I suspect that peer pressure will get more folks to ~~quit~~ switch to vapes

It won't work.

you expect the average person to think further ahead as their next paycheck? Like if peope would be able to think long term the whole climate change debate wouldn't even exist.

We can see the point. There's another point. Black market availability will continue over that same 50 year time frame; it's not phasing out. In some countries, generations have experienced marijuana only as a black market product for more than 50 years at this point.

As a ex smoker I can verify nicotine is an extremely addictive substance for the slight buzz it gives smokers personally cannabis delivers a much more pleasant experience

The average person does (at least in the UK) but listnook's overly libertarian, pro-drug slant struggles with stuff like this. The policy has very positive polling even among adult and teen smokers. Most smokers wish they never started. I think the weed smokers are probably the ones most against this as even though it remains illegal but very prolific, it's seen as also a step against eventual legalisation. I think Listnook also happens to be one of the most pro weed communities and sees legalisation as an inevitable civil liberty.

Nice idea in principle, but it was going to create other problems… for a start was going to shift it from something the government earnt tax revenue on to something controlled by the gangs and criminal groups

And gave f****** tax breaks to Philip Morris. For shame.

There could also be an upper age limit for politicians because they are from a different time

No serious party wants people to do substances, but some look at the data and see that people still do substances even if it's illegal, but when it's illegal, it means 1. Stigma and harder for addicted people to get help and be honest 2. Unregulated market and products laced with unwanted substances 3. Sustains gigantic criminal organizations, where the money gets directed to stuff like more crime (instead of government regulated, where the money can go into things that benefit people) And then it hits you. Maybe substance abuse is not the root of the problem, but a symptom of deeper ones, and keeping substances illegal is an attempt at a temporary patch (which has never had any success and been incredibly expensive) for these underlying problems and trying to fight the problem at the symptoms is always going to make them reappear, like Hercules chopping off the head of the hydra over and over.

Please enlighten me if I'm wrong, but unlike cigerattes, drugs don't affect the people nearby when it's consumed. So from ethical POV, drugs are fine no?

It's already extremely expensive, a pack of 20 is around $26. For an 18 year old that's 2 hours of minimum wage work.  This ban only affects people born after 2008, so if you're 17 today you won't be able to buy cigarettes ever. Which is not old enough to buy them anyway.  Everybody who's 18 and can buy cigs today, will still be able to buy them their whole lives.  This is just to stop future children from smoking, in 80 years time the only people able to buy cigs will be 98 year olds.  It's a far better way of banning smoking than ban it for the whole country overnight. 

LOL, they tried that here in Australia. The illegal importers are winning, hands down.

Cigarette's have an inelastic demand curve so higher prices won't make meaningful change.

By this logic, nothing can be illegal

What profits? Kids are all about lip pillows these days. 

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Like when they outlawed murder and suddenly there was a boom in people hiring hitmen...

Should we make Heroine legal to reduce profits for organized crime?

Nonsense, they will turn to vapes Cigarettes can still be legally sold in the uk, they just need to get an older mate to buy them

Because kids are so adept at making contact in the black market.

Compulsory testing at your doctors office for nicotine. If they find some? Straight to jail.

Just purchase. Soon no one will be allowed to purchase cigarettes.

Seriously. I'm surprised at the backlash and lazy comparisons to alcohol. There's literally no positive value to cigarettes being easily available. Literally only a handful of people benefit from cigarettes and that's those who make money off them.

If alcohol was illegal, do you think there would be less underage drinking?

> Sad the internet is that indecent. ?

> What are they banning though? Purchasing tobacco? Smoking tobacco? Or nicotine itself? Purchasing

Do you think France will ban cigs in the future?

Honestly, it probably wouldn't even have been if they hadn't set it to 2008. The problem is that there are already a bunch of teenager who are addicted and will be smoking their entire lives. The fact that it was illegal didn't stop the kids who were doing it before, and now they'll just have to keep getting illegal cigs indefinitely

I mean if the number of cigarette smokers was decreased down to the number of weed smokers I’m sure they would still consider that a win.

Should we make Heroine legal to reduce profits for organized crime?

Did you tell all your friends to quit?

The famous land border the uk shares with nowhere (except NI)

> They can just go across the border to buy them if they want to. Will other countries ban cigarettes? Philip Morris has called for a phase-out or ban on traditional cigarettes to accelerate its transition to a "smoke-free future"

Prohibition doesn't work

So alcohol next?

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Should we make Heroine legal to reduce profits for organized crime?

How does this make black market sales legal?

Different government reversed it because they were against it. Nobody folded

Vapes aren’t banned. We aren’t following Australia. This is only tobacco products. Other nicotine products like vapes or pouches are still allowed.

Won't other countries ban cigarettes as well?