ListNook

FaustTriumphant 2 days ago +833

This is surprising, because South Korea has a progressive government right now which has historically been more accommodating towards North Korea (and more willing to downplay the nuclear threat) for the sake of peace-making with NK. (SK's progressive former presidents Kim Dae Jung and Roh Moo Hyun actually accused the US of fabricating NK's nukes in order to sell a war in the early 2000s. When NK themselves admitted they had nukes, those former presidents scaled back their accusations to state that the US was just "overreacting.") The fact that SK's progressive Unification Ministry (which is tasked with outreach and "peace-making" with NK) is raising the alarms about a North Korean nuclear site shows that SK's progressives are starting to move closer to the center and are becoming less tolerant/accommodating towards threats from NK. And the fact that the US PUNISHED SK by restricting intelligence after (despite historically wanting SK's progressives to "get real"/"get tough" with NK for decades) suggests that the current US administration (we all know who I'm talking about) might want to start sending "beautiful love letters" again and pursue a unilateral peace agreement with NK; one that undercuts SK (which the current administration perceives as a "defense burden" and "trade competitor" than an actual ally).

833

greatthebob38 2 days ago +323

I have a contractor friend that should still be working in SK right now. The US has been scaling down equipment shipments to SK for a while now, even before Iran war. He's pretty much been telling his SK counterparts to be less reliant on the US. This process has only accelerated because of the Iran war. You can understand why SK is now shifting to more vigilant and hawkish on NK because they might not have the US to fully support them and also why SK has been rapidly expanding their military equipment industry. They're pretty much being forced to be self-subsistent.

323

Black_Moons 2 days ago +79

The less international money that goes to US military industrial complex the better.

79

Codex_Dev 2 days ago -83

If countries are too weak to defend themselves, then they should be paying bigger and stronger countries for their protection, OR be willing to invest money into their own self-defense industry. The problem with the latter is that it's prohibitively expensive and poisonous to your civilian economy. So a lot of countries forgo it and reinvest that money into their civilian sector.

-83

Black_Moons 2 days ago +40

Sure but clearly putting all your eggs into one pedobasket leaves you vulnerable if that country goes off the deep end and decides to be the world's next antagonist. Also as we've seen spending all that R&D on $100,000,000 aircraft that you can only afford a few dozen of is pretty dumb when they are going to spend >50% of their time sitting on a runway being targets for the 1000x $10,000 drones that another country bought instead. Even if you got the best anti-drone stuff ever, your not gonna stop 1000 drones all launched at once with 1 target. 99.9%+ intercept rates are just unachievable especially when you only have a few seconds to hit 1000 targets. And even if you could stop them all, they would just target any unprotected infrastructure instead. Can't cover the entire country in 99.9%+ intercept rate anti-drone hardware.

40

Metallgesellschaft 2 days ago +20

So, having all those military installations abroad only helps those countries where they located!? Having the ability to fly sorties from Britain or Spain only benefits those countries? The ability to fly seriously wounded servicemen to Germany only benefits Germany and the Germans? 🤡

20

Codex_Dev 2 days ago -15

You may have missed the memo, but several countries recently denied the US access to those military installations. Also, America has to pay large chunks of $$$ as rent, which is a waste of money. It's like a homeless beggar crying that you have stopped giving free bread and how beneficial it is...

-15

Lazy_Advertising7921 2 days ago +53

If SK can be less reliant on the US for military equipment, is this not a good thing?

53

greatthebob38 2 days ago +130

If it's a slow transition, as was originally planned, then it's fine. It gives time for equipment procurement and planning. But what Trump admin is doing is not. US shifted their air radars and AA defenses from SK to Middle East during the initial Iran conflict. Now, they are blocking shared intelligence with SK. So SK is being left blind and vulnerable with no immediate replacement, same like Afghanistan.

130

fruitybix 2 days ago +54

Adding to this - my limited understanding is that the US defense industry profits from SKs reliance on US technology. I dont know enough about korea, but in other parts of the world home grown solutions like AA defenses have been discouraged in the past, forcing a reliance on purchased US equipment and related support contracts. The global push for countries to source their own military equipment hurts the US arms suppliers in the long term.

54

amazinghadenMM 2 days ago +8

Ever since the Nixon Doctrine and the establishment of the ADD (Agency for Defense Development), the ROK has been building a self-reliant domestic defense industry. While a lot of these domestically produced weapons are often made in collaboration with US firms (K1 [88 tank], KF21, etc) or reverse/side engineered (K1/K2, NHK-1) it ultimately is quite homegrown and self reliant today. There isn’t a lot of equipment outside of certain armaments (notably the AIM 9 and 120) that the ROK sources from the US. I don’t believe the US defense industry profits that significantly from the ROK, and sometimes viewed as competitors in global export. I believe the AA defense referred to might be THAAD, as its deployment had been a hot topic for the last decade just for it to be partially removed recently, which doesn’t help the growing feeling and sentiment that the US is not a reliable ally.

8

Extra-Amoeba-677 1 day ago +1

It's 100% this. There's companies and contracts that are living off of the omg north korea going to go hit south korea any moment now. It's not that north korea is not crazy. It's that they have an entire business model that has convinced south korea that they need the U.S. to keep north korea at bay. The whole situation of U.S. presence wasn't supposed to be permanent but when you've got military contractors who have made it their living off of it, it becomes something else and it's not f****** pretty. It's profiteering at this point. The faucet is starting to turn off.

1

fruitybix 1 day ago +1

Yeah making changes to reduce corporations reliance on public money (especially predatory defense spending) is probably good. Doing it the way its being done now is like moving a line of parked cars with a snow plow without warning. With the added seasoning of north korea being a threat to regional stability and china sabre rattling over taiwan. Commerce thrives in a stable and predictable market. Jobs for regular people rely on that stability. Sudden chaos only benefits the wealthy with liquid assets and inside knowledge.

1

Imbendo 2 days ago +16

South Korea has one of the most advanced military industries in the world. They produce an incredible amount of equipment for both domestic use and export. Some tech they do rely on the US for but main thing they rely on the us for is simply their presence on the peninsula.

16

manytakes 2 days ago +34

It's not a good thing for the dollar and our quality of life though.

34

pfisch 2 days ago +5

It is setting the stage for ww3. The more countries having their own big armies makes it more and more likely we will get pulled into a war that will blow up like in ww1. Also when countries spend a bunch on armies they inevitably end up using them to push nearby neighbors around, making a spark that will cause ww3 more likely.

5

JaVelin-X- 2 days ago

it's being designed so eventually they will have to stand alone against NK China and Russia

0

PerilousFun 2 days ago +2

It's pushing SK and Japan towards closer cooperation despite ongoing historical misgivings, particularly about Japanese denial of war crimes.

2

RadTechMaster 1 day ago +1

This is happening to every US ally country to some degree.

1

5GCovidInjection 2 days ago -17

You sure you should be talking about this? This sounds very classified

-17

greatthebob38 2 days ago +14

It's no longer a secret because people already posted pictures on listnook around South Korean bases of the US packing up equipment right around the time Iran war started. There's a bunch of articles from last month talking about US pulling equipment from SK already.

14

Vova_Poutine 2 days ago +51

I think the reason for the restriction is that they revealed classified information, rather than the fact that they are becoming more concerned abut NK's nuclear activity. The concern is probably welcomed by the US, but publicly revealing military intelligence without authorization is never a good idea. The US probably doesnt weant NK to be aware of just how much the US knows about their weapons programs.

51

antantantant80 2 days ago +2

Rules for SK don't appear to apply to either the orange one or kegsbreath. What bullshit.

2

Vova_Poutine 2 days ago +5

The US president and secretary of defence get to classify and declassify intelligence gathered by US assets, so that's their prerogative, whatever or I might think of them.

5

barrybull2024 2 days ago +2

The defence budget in SK was higher during presidency of the last progressive president then the last conservative president. The progress camp in SK, interestingly, is quite nationalistic and push more homegrown military development.

2

tythompson 2 days ago +5

xenophobic fan fiction. Reason is right under the headline. Any country would want to keep that secret.

5

N33DL 2 days ago +6

Well that's good news if the 'progressives' are becoming less accomodating to N. Korea. Still a collosal mistake to even mention a non-disclosed site. That simply tells the enemy what you know without any collateral benefit. What a national embarassment for that party, as well as Korea's unwillingness to secure their own oil through an Iranian blockade.

6

FaustTriumphant 2 days ago +16

"Well that's good news if the 'progressives' are becoming less accomodating to N. Korea. Still a collosal mistake to even mention a non-disclosed site. That simply tells the enemy what you know without any collateral benefit." Is it always a "colossal mistake" though? Yes it could inform them that they're being watched, but I can see scenarios where sudden disclosure of _'Hey! You're being watched!'_ can startle/rattle an enemy, deter them from making a dangerous next move, and force them to shift course/strategy at great cost to their own time and resources (even if it informs them of your capacity to spy on them in the short term). "What a national embarassment for that party, as well as Korea's unwillingness to secure their own oil through an Iranian blockade." SK has historically had very friendly relations with Iran, even under conservative and staunchly "Pro-US" leadership; Park Geun Hye (SK's "far-right Iron Lady") went to Iran in a hijab in the 2010s, convinced them they were above Iran's beef with the US, and then convinced the US that SK was/should be exempt from any beef/sanctions between the US and Iran after. The South Korean economy is suffering right now because of the Iran War, but so are most countries' right now. Is SK particularly WORSE OFF right now in comparison with the rest of the world?

16

N33DL 2 days ago +4

If that is the case, does N. Korea need to be rattled by the minister at this time? What was gained? Was there some tactical advantage we don't know about? Or are you trying to imagine a situation where this was not a mistake and hoping that's the case?

4

Abunda_88 2 days ago +3

That is up to the South Korean officials to explain since they leaked the information. I gave you facts; not my opinion. North Korea officially designated South Korea as a “number one hostile country” in 2024, and that the two countries would never be unified. Kim Jong Un said that North Korea would destroy South Korea with nukes if they were ever attacked by South Korea. North Korea is part of CRINK, so it is aligned with China, Russia, and Iran. Hurting one hurts them all. Cuba and Venezuela were helping CRINK and preventing US military presence from being established in the Caribbean (eg. needed upgrades to Guantanamo previously blocked by Cuban officials). Them out of the picture reduces intelligence to CRINK and reduces economic and geopolitical influence from CRINK. Iran and North Korea are the weakest links in CRINK. It would make sense that North Korea would be the next target to further dismantle the geopolitical influence of CRINK and stop the threat of nuclear annihilation on South Korea which does not have nuclear weapons. South Korea not having nuclear weapons is a huge military advantage to North Korea. North Korea is also supplying a large amount of supplies to Russia for their invasion of Ukraine.

3

N33DL 2 days ago +2

"Is it always a "colossal mistake" though? Yes it could inform them that they're being watched, but I can see scenarios where sudden disclosure of *'Hey! You're being watched!'* can startle/rattle an enemy, deter them from making a dangerous next move, and force them to shift course/strategy at great cost to their own time and resources (even if it informs them of your capacity to spy on them in the short term)." That is an opinion, not a fact. Though I agree with your other opinions.

2

Abunda_88 1 day ago +1

I didn’t say that; you replied to the wrong person. That being said, it would have been okay if South Korea was the one to provide the satellite intelligence, however, it was the USA that did it. South Korea let the whole world know how specific the satellite intelligence was that the USA has on its enemies and is being shared with South Korea. They essentially forced their number one ally to show their hand to all of their ally’s enemies. South Korea relies on the USA’s partnership to defend itself, and they would likely be forced to build nukes without the USA’s protection.

1

Abunda_88 2 days ago -1

That was before CRINK. Western powers are scrambling to stop China’s invasion of Taiwan in the next two years to prevent China from controlling the South China Sea trade route. If China gets control of that trade route, then Korea is fucked; along with every other western country.

-1

Rich_Housing971 2 days ago +1

>Western powers are scrambling to stop China’s invasion of Taiwan in the next two years "two years" was given in 2022. You've fallen for even more fearmongering.

1

Abunda_88 2 days ago +2

I’m actually referring to the Davidson window which (in 2021) was given a timeframe of 2021-2027. Who said “two years” in 2022?

2

[deleted] 2 days ago +2

[deleted]

2

Brave_Suggestion945 2 days ago +7

Wtf is this misinformation. The current Korean government is still considered center left, and conservatives are generally right, not some uniformly “far right” bloc. Lee Jae-myung is a center left leader with a pragmatic streak, not right leaning.

7

[deleted] 2 days ago -3

[deleted]

-3

RonaldRutherford 2 days ago +1

To what extend is becuse there is now a bi-Partisan recognization in the US and region(Japan and Taiwan) that President Lee likes to say "Xie Xie" to China and South Korea's support can not be count on in a regional conflict? It is fine for South Korea to choose appeasement and try to triangulate, but they should not be suprised by the distrust such positions creates.

1

zeke714 2 days ago +1

Is China threatening South Korea? No, quite the opposite. China and South Korea just renewed bilateral ties and is helping South Korea with opening up North Korea.

1

dzan796ero 2 days ago

No political side in Korea is getting near the center. Obvious propaganda pushing. Both sides are getting more extreme.

0

zombiegojaejin 2 days ago -1

The nuclear site was public information. This is most likely actually punishment for his recent criticism of Israel.

-1

BoringRedHorse 2 days ago +190

Trump: "Iran will never have a nuke!" Meanwhile everyone else is now making sure to all have nukes...

190

imaginary_num6er 2 days ago +29

Save money too. Every country just needs a nuke button with no standing military /s

29

tamasG 2 days ago

India and Pakistan both have nukes, nothing stopped them last year 🤷‍♂️

0

gao7on 1 day ago +1

Neither would dare all out war with nuclear neighbors, perhaps petty skirmishes like rock throwing.

1

After_Ocelot_7767 2 days ago +5

Well, obviously. Trump has demonstrated that not having nukes is no guarantee that a nuclear power won't come at you anyway, and if that happens you're just simply shit outta luck without your own nukes.

5

Initial-Return8802 2 days ago +2

Russia demonstrated that a fair few years ago to be fair

2

After_Ocelot_7767 2 days ago +3

Yeah that's fair. Still though, you might say Trump's case is worse. Nobody expects Putin's Russia to abide by any limits or unspoken agreements. Trump has proved to the whole world that even the greatest countries on the planet with the most complex systems of "checks and balances" will still be 4 years away from just randomly flipping out.

3

BoringRedHorse 1 day ago +3

You could also look at it on a longer timescale. When the US dropped the bombs on Japan, it was in its democratic golden era. It had high taxes on the rich, a large prosperous middle class. It was a true representative democracy with checks and balances. It made sense to freeze the nuclear proliferation at that point so only a key few stable democracies had nukes. But that USA society has been eroded away since then, and now we have a dangerous erratic American dictator + corporate oligarchy swinging around the nuclear arsenal of a superpower.

3

serakeri 2 days ago +1

Because the people sending the nukes really care if you nuke their populace? You should have way more listnook points with propaganda like that.

1

After_Ocelot_7767 2 days ago +3

Yes...? Even if we were to assume one of these governments with nukes was so soulless as to not care in the slightest about the loss of life from getting their country nuked, they'd at least care for practical reasons, like the economy, infrastructure and manpower loss. What kind of stupid ass gotcha are you trying to get at?

3

serakeri 1 day ago

You think it's a stupid ass gotcha because they would care about the economy, infrastructure, and manpower loss? What year are you living in?

0

After_Ocelot_7767 1 day ago +1

Dude, what even is your point? Every country on earth cares if it gets nuked, and if it's not for one reason as you implied, it will be for another. Like, what the f*** are you offended at?

1

serakeri 1 day ago +1

Countries don't have feelings. We were discussing the feelings for the people making decisions. No one is offended by anything except you.

1

After_Ocelot_7767 1 day ago +1

You're honestly insane.

1

serakeri 1 day ago +1

Which acting administration is on a revenge campaign against their citizens? All you are doing is spamming ad hominem, but I understand the need to defend your learning ego.

1

suddenstutter 2 days ago +156

Not true btw, i think trump is just finding more ways to lose more allies on purpose to help russia.

156

Potates42 2 days ago +67

Making it more obvious by the hour that he's there to destroy the US from the inside. Whether he realizes it or not is a different question entirely.

67

chinchaaa 2 days ago +12

He’s doing a great job at that! A++

12

suddenstutter 2 days ago +12

He knows exactly what hes doing. He's a master manipulator and deception and confusion was always a part of the plan.

12

Potates42 2 days ago +9

I'm leaning that way too. He hates everyone and everything that isn't him, and any flattery he doles out sounds so f****** fake.

9

suddenstutter 2 days ago

Correct.

0

DogDogDogDogog 2 days ago +1

and the people cheer...

1

GeneralDumbtomics 2 days ago +16

Cao, unfortunately, is a frigging loon.

16

AllThePrettyPenguins 2 days ago +19

Guess he should have kept it in the Signal chat

19

sierrabravo1984 2 days ago +33

Can we ban Trump since he has revealed secrets also?

33

Ok-Addition1264 2 days ago +20

It sounds like we have. They've now excluded him from two known operations and possibly a third that involved a nuclear weapon.

20

roller_coaster325 2 days ago +2

Why is the unification minister usually complaining about North Korea? Seems counter intuitive.

2

viddied 2 days ago +5

Can't say that I'm surprised. When I was stationed over there, it was eye-opening how lax they are about cybersecurity and OPSEC. We were definitely warned.

5

TJ-LEED-AP 2 days ago +3

Do they not know bibis ties to spies who stole American nuclear secrets?

3

GenitalFurbies 2 days ago +2

Confirming classified knowledge that is present on Wikipedia is a leak of classified knowledge. It verifies a source which lends credence to everything else they've said. This is basic opsec.

2

Winjin 2 days ago +8

Article says that it's an open info published by US-SK think tanks and they have talked about it for at least nine months now

8

theHoundLivessss 2 days ago +1

Monroe Doctrine returning and a deteriorating of conditions in Asia definitely going to have South Korea thinking about nukes.

1

redd1618 2 days ago -2

only trump is allowed to do this

-2

[deleted] 2 days ago -4

[removed]

-4

dmthoth 2 days ago

That location was already revealed by multiple people, articles and papers before. This is more of the an extension of Coupang BS.

0

unknown-one 2 days ago -7

they should make EATO East Asian Treaty Organization SK +JAP +Thaiwan China will go crazy

-7

Ragebaiterlmao 2 days ago -22

Glory to North Korea! Glory to South Korea! Unity.

-22

audittheaudit00 2 days ago -98

South Korea is going to join North Korea. It's been in play for awhile. The younger generation does not think about North Korea like the older generation did that lived through the Korean War.

-98

KarlAdler 2 days ago +56

What a stupid comment

56

audittheaudit00 2 days ago -80

How so? Because your emotions stop you from thinking and seeing whats been happening?

-80

Important-Theory1619 2 days ago +29

What's been happening? Like, concretely, what physical things have happened that will make you think the government of SK will be delegating all its power to the government of NK?

29

SKULL1138 2 days ago +20

You really think SK think their lives will be better getting ruled by the Great Leader? They are a first world country and NK is a toilet. You think they don’t know that but we all do?

20

imtpow02 2 days ago +20

Younger generation does not hate NK like older generation yes, but generally, SK people think NK as lesser Korea. Outdated, underdeveloped, brainwashed lesser society. SK will never willfully join NK and any kind of suggestion from politician or public figure will be political suicide and could be punished by law. Yes we are all tired of Yellow tanned idiot, but we are not desperate enough to give up current sovereignty and join NK.

20

SsurebreC 2 days ago +12

I'm going to flip this around and say that if anyone is joining anything, it's North Korea merging with South Korea. Stupid? Yes but hear me out. South Korea has a population crisis and North Korea has a higher birth rate. North Korea also has poverty and lack of resources that South Korea doesn't have. If both regions want to survive then they have to merge. North Korea's leadership just doesn't want to give up the power they've held for generations and reconcilliation - while tricky and will take a while - is the best outcome for all Koreans. But there's no way that South Korea is joining North Korea. It'll be the other way around.

12

US ‘restricts intelligence sharing with South Korea’ after minister identified suspected nuclear site

💬 Send a Message

86 Comments