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Announcements Nov 20, 2015 at 6:00 PM

We are updating our Privacy Policy (effective Jan 1, 2016)

Posted by spez

In a little over a month we’ll be updating our [Privacy Policy](https://www.listnook.com/help/privacypolicy). We know this is important to you, so I want to explain what has changed and why. Keeping control in your hands is paramount to us, and this is our first consideration any time we change our privacy policy. Our overarching principle continues to be to request as little personally identifiable information as possible. To the extent that we store such information, we do not share it generally. Where there are exceptions to this, notably when you have given us explicit consent to do so, or in response to legal requests, we will spell them out clearly. The new policy is functionally very similar to the previous one, but it’s shorter, simpler, and less repetitive. We have clarified what information we collect automatically (basically anything your browser sends us) and what we share with advertisers (nothing specific to your Listnook account). One notable change is that we are increasing the number of days we store IP addresses from 90 to 100 so we can measure usage across an entire quarter. In addition to internal analytics, the primary reason we store IPs is to fight spam and abuse. I believe in the future we will be able to accomplish this without storing IPs at all (e.g. with hashing), but we still need to work out the details. In addition to changes to our Privacy Policy, we are also beginning to roll out support for [Do Not Track](http://donottrack.us/). Do Not Track is an option you can enable in modern browsers to notify websites that you do not wish to be tracked, and websites can interpret it however they like (most ignore it). If you have Do Not Track enabled, we will not load any third-party analytics. We will keep you informed as we develop more uses for it in the future. Individually, you have control over what information you share with us and what your browser sends to us automatically. I encourage everyone to understand how browsers and the web work and what steps you can take to protect your own privacy. Notably, browsers allow you to disable [third-party cookies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_cookie#Third-party_cookie), and you can customize your browser with a variety of privacy-related [extensions](http://lifehacker.com/the-best-browser-extensions-that-protect-your-privacy-479408034). We are proud that Listnook is home to many of the most open and genuine conversations online, and we know this is only made possible by your trust, without which we would not exist. We will continue to do our best to earn this trust and to respect your basic assumptions of privacy. Thank you for reading. I’ll be here for an hour to answer questions, and I'll check back in again the week of Dec 14th before the changes take effect. -Steve (spez) edit: Thanks for all the feedback. I'm off for now.
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aphoenix Nov 20, 2015 +3469
Supporting Do Not Track is an interesting choice. It'll be a big win for Do Not Track to have another major website following it. Moving towards not actually storing IP addresses is also an interesting move. I like that you're putting a strong emphasis on privacy. I'm also generally a fan of making it so that people can understand what's being tracked and why.
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spez Nov 20, 2015 +1471
The IP stuff has been an interesting challenge. The fewer we can store, the better for all of us.
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brielem Nov 20, 2015 +18
Does the 90 (from 2016 100) days IP storage also count for IP bans? I'm asking because at first, it doesn't sound like it makes any sense to "throw away" IP bans: An user isn't banned for no reason. But on the other hand, with many people having dynamic IP's, there's also a good chance that that same IP might get re-assigned to someone else. How does listnook handle this?
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sonar1 Nov 20, 2015 +274
I havent seen someone ask this in a while: Have you been requested by police or FBI for an IP address?
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burkadurka Nov 20, 2015 +242
[Yes they have](https://www.listnook.com/wiki/transparency/2014#wiki_requests_for_user_information), though the [warrant canary](https://www.listnook.com/wiki/transparency/2014#wiki_national_security_requests) is still alive.
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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +178
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zenotortoise Nov 20, 2015 +97
**PSA: There has never been proof of the effectiveness of a warrant canary.** It's a nifty idea, but it doesn't guarantee that the government also won't just say "you are now gagged and may not kill the canary as well" **IMPORTANT EDIT**: referring to below post. This really isn't how gag orders work. A gag order stops you from saying you have been gagged. The government is run by people, not robots. They are smart enough to know about your warrant canary. They can tell you to leave it in place to fulfill the part about "not telling people you are gagged". IANAL but I have talked with L who specialize in this stuff for specific FOSS privacy projects, and they concur. **BAD DATA IS WORSE THAN NO DATA.**
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hadtoupvotethat Nov 20, 2015 +76
This is a misunderstanding of the warrant canary. They don't need to "kill" anything. They simply need to refrain from updating it. So if, during 2015, listnook did receive such a warrant, they could simply not include such a statement in the next transparency report. The idea is that, while a law can prohibit them from telling the truth, the law cannot force them to actively ~~keep telling a lie~~ tell a new lie. Also, not updating the canary is ambiguous - listnook may simply have decided that they don't need to do it for whatever reason or forgot to do it. IANAL, so I don't know if this really works or not, but it sure sounds clever, doesn't it? **Edit:** according to [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrant_canary) there is serious doubt about this standing up in a court of law, but there is no mention of it being tested yet.
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Notcow Nov 20, 2015 +48
This is a misunderstanding of Gag orders. The idea is that a gag order prevents that company in question from revealing that they have been gagged. So this would mean they would be forced to continue updating the canary or face consequences. There is no law in place which states that they cannot be forced to tell a lie.
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fellatious_argument Nov 20, 2015 +21
Its like the episode of The Simpsons where Sideshow bob drives through the neighborhood announcing all the people he won't murder and says everyone's name except Bart.
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IWontRespondToYou Nov 20, 2015 +32
More of a Warrant "dead man switch" then.
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jstolfi Nov 21, 2015 +6
> They can tell you to leave it in place to fulfill the part about "not telling people you are gagged". During the military dictatorship in Brazil (1964-1985), each newspaper got assigned a resident sargeant-censor who would veto any news or column that he considered "subversive". At first some major newspapers printed obvious filler junk in place of the censored articles (one used verses from /The Lusiads/, another used the same cake recipe over and over). But after a few days the censors got smarter and forced the newspapers to omit those fillers too (just as the mods of /r/bitcoin modified the CSS to suppress even the "[deleted]" placeholder). Also, as soon as the military took over, a notorious satyrical paper started printing a "this issue is still uncensored" canary seal on their front page. When the censor finally got to them, he naturally forced them to keep printing the seal.
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escalat0r Nov 20, 2015 +15
It's doubtful though if they can work https://github.com/WhisperSystems/whispersystems.org/issues/34 Which actually sucks because if a (US) site would be forced to keep the warrant canary alive although it should be dead this would result in the opposite of what it's intended for, you think everything's fine when it's really not. This is also a good reason to not use US sites for privacy aware stuff.
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goodolbluey Nov 20, 2015 +89
aka [The FBI Has Not Been Here](http://www.librarian.net/pics/antipat4.gif).
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Notcow Nov 20, 2015 +54
Many very high-renown and highly-trusted VPN options like CyberGhost and Private Internet Access don't use Warrant Canaries because they're almost exclusively PR, and wouldn't likely serve their purpose. Even though it hasn't been publicly tested, it's unlikely we would know if there's a failing canary service in place right now. In the event that a company was gagged, it's entirely likely that they would be forced to continue upkeep of the canary without even being allowed to drop a subtle hint. At any rate, most places privacy centric services which don't use Warrant Canaries base their decision on the fact that such a service would likely be ineffective, and at worst deceptive if they were forced to continue the canary even after being gagged. Source 1: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/10/how-one-small-american-vpn-is-trying-to-stand-up-for-privacy/ Source 2: http://law.stackexchange.com/questions/268/is-there-any-legal-theory-behind-warrant-canaries Source 3 (courtesy of /u/escalat0r): https://github.com/WhisperSystems/whispersystems.org/issues/34
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escalat0r Nov 20, 2015 +10
Moxie agrees with what you say https://github.com/WhisperSystems/whispersystems.org/issues/34
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curtmack Nov 20, 2015 +93
The warrant canary is for FISA court "superinjunctions," they're not going to pop it for run-of-the-mill subpoenas that they're free to talk about anyway.
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user_82650 Nov 20, 2015 +24
Warrant canaries are basically the same logic as [the simpsons](https://youtu.be/OnDxxQugCI0?t=36s). "I'm not going to tell anyone that I received a request. I'll just remove this sentence here, and if people interpret it as information, it's their own fault!"
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popiyo Nov 20, 2015 +15
It reminds me of when Marge Asks Homer what he's doing with all the bowling balls ["Oh...I'm not gonna lie to you Marge...so long! *turns and leaves*"](http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h92VmePl6IU)
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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +25
[deleted]
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Spandian Nov 21, 2015 +8
The linked page is Listnook's 2014 transparency report, which was released on January 29th. This canary is only updated once a year by design.
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TheSpoom Nov 21, 2015 +4
Yes, so your gag order explicitly or implicitly forces you to keep it alive. I don't get how people don't see this. It's like the view it as a magic incantation against law enforcement, of which there are really only a few that actually work: I do not consent to a search, I'm not answering any questions, and I want a lawyer.
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AdamTReineke Nov 20, 2015 +39
Hashing of IPv4 addresses is easily reversible, isn't it? You could generate the lookup table with the 2^32 addresses and their hashes. Any idea how to prevent reversal?
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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +40
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Captain-Griffen Nov 20, 2015 +10
Salting wouldn't work though. There is no way you can stop them generating a lookup table for IPv4. Say it takes 1 millisecond to check if an IP is blacklisted on their servers. 1 millisecond to take up the server just to check one IP is completely and utterly unworkable (listnook would just grind to a complete halt). On equivalent hardware, it would take under 50 days to generate a complete hash table. And the NSA would have a lot more powerful computer than a listnook server. Not to mention that they are most likely only going to want to know about a few specific IPs, thus cutting down the time to a mere milliseconds.
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Klathmon Nov 20, 2015 +9
(I'm bored and it's kind of fun for me to think this through, so i'm gonna take a stab at it, feel free to poke some holes in it this is fun for me.) It sounds like they are mainly storing IPs to fight spam. If that's the case and if they can manage it, they could structure it so that IP checks are near last in line. They can check a ton of other stuff first, and if enough of them flag that it *might* be a spammer, then they check against the IP hashes. (after all, if it's *probably* a spammer an extra few ms or even tens of ms of time on the request isn't going to hurt all that much for such a small and somewhat shady subset of users) And by using an scrypt style hash and targeting 5ms (which is doable if they weed out the vast majority of requests that they are pretty damn sure aren't spam) they could then verify if a user's IP is on the spam list as a last resort. At that point it would take commodity hardware about 250 days to generate a full rainbow table (assuming your earlier calc of 50 days / ms is correct). They can then rotate the salts every 100 days and get the same level of spam-fighting they do now but with the added benefit of not storing any IP addresses (and the added downside of more CPU usage). And if they have a few **really** bad spammers (say like 1% of IPs cause like 80% of the spam), then they could do something cute like store a blacklist of un-hashed IP addresses and add IP addresses to it only when they hit a trigger of something like x thousand spam requests per the last 100 days. That way they *only* store IP addresses of known spammers.
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Kensin Nov 20, 2015 +6
> Supporting Do Not Track is an interesting choice. It'll be a big win for Do Not Track to have another major website following it. Do not track is bullshit. Rather than asking websites to please not track you (the one's you *really* don't want tracking you will ignore you anyway) take control yourself and harden your browser.
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dwild Nov 20, 2015 +3
An hash is litterally useless in that case, or at least useless until we use IPV6. There only 4.2 billion possible adresses, a good amount isn't publicly routable, even more are assigned but will never be used, etc... It wouldn't take long to generate a rainbow table, even if we include the full 4.2 billions range, 2 days max on a single computer. They could use another identifier, like your username, but then it would no longer serve the same purpose at all.
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willsmish Nov 20, 2015 +1539
Interesting. Thanks for the "Do Not Track" option, and for stating changes in the first place.
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spez Nov 20, 2015 +834
Of course. I like DNT. It's too bad it's not more widely supported around the web, but it fits us nicely.
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ObsidianTK Nov 20, 2015 +93
Even though it's not mandatory for websites to comply with the requests, I still think it's an important policy to have around the web so that upstanding websites *can* show that they care about privacy by honoring them. Thanks for working hard to be one of the good guys.
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whizzer0 Nov 20, 2015 +16
It also shows that there's no excuse *not* ~~not~~ to have an option to disable tracking. Edit: I notted a not
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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +62
I feel like DNT was killed when it was set as the default for Windows 8. There's no way an advertising agency will abide by it when the majority of their customers have it enabled and don't even know.
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foldor Nov 20, 2015 +32
Will you be honoring DNT on IE? I ask because Microsoft controversially decided to enable it by default which is still seen as one of the major reasons websites ignore it.
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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +275
[deleted]
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EltonJuan Nov 20, 2015 +28
Don't just give it up like that. Get to know /u/spez first then see where it goes.
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BOOOATS Nov 20, 2015 +12
Yeah, at least get spez to buy you dinner first
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trulyniceguy Nov 20, 2015 +130
Can I have some?
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NotQuiteOnTopic Nov 20, 2015 +300
Here's some of my data. I'm not using it anyways. http://i.imgur.com/s2n4Y6Q.jpg
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Batraman Nov 20, 2015 +137
If you ever decide to run for public office, we *will* use this to take you down.
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Radek_Of_Boktor Nov 20, 2015 +46
I have it from the highest authorities that /u/NotQuiteOnTopic is in fact, a cat.
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Batraman Nov 20, 2015 +36
Yes but what is he looking up??? Find out /u/NotQuiteOnTopic's dirty secrets, which may help you decide whether or not he should be your senator! *More at 11*
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ZeroSilentz Nov 20, 2015 +17
He's purchasing illegal catnip! Take him away, boys!
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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +31
Here's some of my data, too. http://imgur.com/I1kOEBc
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GreatCanadianWookiee Nov 20, 2015 +28
/r/dataisbeautiful
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countryboy002 Nov 20, 2015 +16
Data sharing is in violation of your Comcast user agreement a charge of $40 has been added to your account.
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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +20
I'll send you my bank balance info: $0 Do what you will with it.
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Scarletfapper Nov 20, 2015 +9
Tomorrow all your spam will have stopped, except for credit cards and loan shark companies.
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madd74 Nov 20, 2015 +30
Mine is -$538, I'll trade you.
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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +782
[deleted]
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spez Nov 20, 2015 +579
That's correct.
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Better_than_Trajan Nov 20, 2015 +887
Just a notice for beginners. Other spots on the internet store every comment, so don't expect it to be deleted from the internet.
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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +183
[deleted]
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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +104
Users also run bots to store every comment posted on listnook (like the massive dataset released a few months ago containing almost every publicly posted comment).
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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +54
Whoa, what was that?
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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +80
https://www.listnook.com/r/datasets/comments/3bxlg7/i_have_every_publicly_available_listnook_comment/
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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +53
[deleted]
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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +131
Uneducated guess? Data mining for profit, demographic info, marketing research, etc. Likely also behavioral assessment. If you can predict the time and place to shift an online discussion and therefore shape the perception of group consensus you're basically a god of propaganda for whatever product or ideology.
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funthingsforfunpeeps Nov 20, 2015 +45
There was a researcher in the thread who was interested and listed possible uses as well: >The dataset is useful for a wide range of experiments/analyses because it's a large collection of timestamped events with interesting features (username, body text, post location). > Off the top of my head: > > Identify and track topics associated with every sublistnook and username > Model flow of conversations (e.g. rate of replies compared to controversiality of comment/post) > Track memes > Predict posts/sublistnooks a user will next engage with (i.e. recommender systems) > Community detection with ground truth (sublistnooks)
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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +18
I've considered doing collecting comments myself, solely because I think it's cool. It's not really that much of a hassle as long as you have enough storage and know Python. I also kinda like the idea of keeping public information public (although I understand many listnookors will get upset by that notion). **Edit:** wording
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phamily_man Nov 20, 2015 +96
Facebook even saves everything you type, even if you decide not to post it. Edit: don't downvote without at least a rebuttal. Facebook is crazy about analytics and data mining. They track where your mouse is resting on the page, and any movements it makes. They track everything they can about what you do on other pages. They save every post and photo you've posted and decided to delete. They actively monitor every facebook page you are on and save all of your keystrokes. Most of this isn't that unusual for large websites, but Facebook is well known for going above the invasive tendencies of most other websites.
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Icon_Crash Nov 20, 2015 +51
And it listens when you type in an app. Yes, it opens your mic and listens.
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phamily_man Nov 20, 2015 +45
I hesitated to add that to my comment because I wasn't positive if they are still doing that, but either way, I don't trust a company who has been guilty of such acts whether past or present.
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[deleted] Nov 21, 2015 +14
Holy c***, are you serious? Where can I find more info on this? I'm assuming this applies for the Facebook app and Instagram app too?
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phamily_man Nov 21, 2015 +20
>The reality: Facebook tracks what you do on your smartphone to tailor ads to you. >Phones can collect more personal information than computers, and Facebook certainly takes advantage of that. For example, the Facebook app lets you use your location to alert friends when you're nearby. **It can even listen to what music is in the background when you're writing a post and add in a mention.** >For tailoring ads, Facebook monitors your phone's location and app usage, including which apps you've not used for a while. In June, it also announced it would start using data from the mobile websites you browse. -[Wall Street Journal](http://www.wsj.com/articles/what-you-can-do-about-facebook-tracking-1407263246) There you are, friend.
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[deleted] Nov 21, 2015 +13
Thanks mate. Holy shit that's scary. So it's better to delete the apps and use Facebook through private viewer on a browser? They can't monitor what I do outside of my Facebook app when it's not in use right?
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phamily_man Nov 21, 2015 +21
There are ways they can track you outside of the app. If you want to be absolutely safe you shouldn't be using Facebook; and I absolutely understand that this isn't realistic for the average person and that, for many, the pros outweigh the cons. Truly, it shouldn't be much concern to the average person, but it is a pretty big deal to the privacy minded minority. Just Google "Facebook tracking" or check out [my other comment](https://www.listnook.com/r/announcements/comments/3tlcil/we_are_updating_our_privacy_policy_effective_jan/cx7tk4h) for a little more information on the subject. Most major tech companies are tracking you and selling your information in one way or another. Generally, it's nothing malicious, it's just how these companies make money. Facebook has done some extremely shady stuff in the past (like their [mood manipulation studies](https://www.google.com/search?q=facebook+mood+manipulation&rlz=1C1MSIM_enUS651US651&oq=facebook+mood+m&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l5.5568j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8)) but at the end of the day they are just trying to turn a profit like every other company; I just have very little respect for the way Zuckerberg and FB go about it.
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KommanderKrebs Nov 21, 2015 +9
It also monitors private messages. I had a photo pulled in a PM because it violated Facebook community standards.
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coding_is_fun Nov 20, 2015 +85
Can you implement a change that actually deletes a deleted comment? Making people click Edit then enter some non sense then click save then click delete seems weird.
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toomanychoicestoday Nov 20, 2015 +21
This comment has been overwritten by an open source script to protect this user's privacy, and to help prevent doxxing and harassment by toxic communities like ShitListnookSays. If you would also like to protect yourself, add the Chrome extension [TamperMonkey](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/tampermonkey/dhdgffkkebhmkfjojejmpbldmpobfkfo), or the Firefox extension [GreaseMonkey](https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/greasemonkey/) and add [this open source script](https://greasyfork.org/en/scripts/10380-listnook-overwrite). Then simply click on your username on Listnook, go to the comments tab, scroll down as far as possibe (hint:use [RES](http://www.listnookenhancementsuite.com/)), and hit the new OVERWRITE button at the top.
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theozzy Nov 20, 2015 +3742
Good job Listnook for being one of the only big websites to give a f*** about their user's privacy. I don't think people give Listnook enough credit for this kind of stuff. Edit: thanks for the gold!
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Boukert Nov 21, 2015 +23
Listnook doesnt give a f*** and this policy is very bad for users: - Except as it relates to advertisers and our ad partners, we may share information with vendors, consultants, and other service providers who need access to such information to carry out work for us; - We may share information if we believe your actions are inconsistent with our user agreements, rules, or other Listnook policies, or to protect the rights, property, and safety of ourselves and others; - We may share information between and among Listnook, and its current and future parents, affiliates, subsidiaries, and other companies under common control and ownership So basically you can do with our information whatever you want. This is just screwing over your volunteer userbase to make a quick buck on our personal information! this is not protecting the users or listnook. This is just a big f*** you to users. I cannot believe you actually are forcing this down our throats this is an absolute disgrace and an insult to everyone trying to make listnook a better place.
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[deleted] Nov 21, 2015 +12
Exactly this, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. People seriously came to this thread and congratulated listnook without even reading the policy. It's as if spez is a movie star they can semi-interact with.
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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +75
Well, one would expect privacy to be one of the major concerns on a website such as Listnook, where much of the main focus is on anonymity.
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spez Nov 20, 2015 +2039
A lot of people around here appreciate you saying that.
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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +561
[deleted]
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user_82650 Nov 20, 2015 +84
Maybe not. I think we shouldn't be happy until he starts to address the growing problem of abusive and biased mods. They say "just find a different sublistnook", but the problem is mods can remove all information about what they are removing from a sublistnook, thus leaving the vast majority of sublistnook users in the dark about it, thinking they're in a happy place where you can discuss anything but in fact you get auto-banned for mentioning the rival product (or saying a PG-13 word). This could be mitigated by: 1. Implementing a way for people to discover competing sublistnooks, that mods can't block. 2. Implement more transparency. There's a different website I visit, not too different to listnook (although much smaller, yes) where ALL changes to posts (editions, deletions) are public, and it seems to work fine. I know it's not an easy problem, but the admins have taken **zero** steps to fix it, and in fact refused to talk about it, so that naturally makes me think they are fine with it.
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dromoe Nov 20, 2015 +51
Speaking of competing subs. I created /r/videosplus as a place for ALL videos to be submitted. Not just this kind or that kind. We still enforce Listnook's core content policy but outside that our core structure is anti-censorship and to let the votes do the work. Consider it an alternative to /r/videos. Enjoy.
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skyman724 Nov 20, 2015 +3
>1. Implementing a way for people to discover competing sublistnooks, that mods can't block. https://www.listnook.com/sublistnooks/search >2. Implement more transparency. There's a different website I visit, not too different to listnook (although much smaller, yes) where ALL changes to posts (editions, deletions) are public, and it seems to work fine. /r/undelete (I'm not saying this is a great solution for transparency, but merely showing that it exists)
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TheLollrax Nov 20, 2015 +236
I never jumped on the Ellen Pao rebellion, but I think it's pretty clear how much better things are now.
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missch4nandlerbong Nov 21, 2015 +50
AMAs are worse and the front page algorithm sucks now for keeping me informed of breaking news. I appreciate the candor about internal workings of Listnook, Inc., but the day-to-day experience is slightly but noticeably worse for me. Obviously neither of those examples are the fault of /u/spez, but I disagree with your statement nonetheless.
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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +261
As a regular reader of listnook, I can barely see any difference except a lack of hateful comments directed at Ellen Pao. No matter what the new CEO does, he won't repeatedly be called a c***. Sad what that brought out in people.
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Rangers-in-7 Nov 20, 2015 +22
That front page not updating still gets my panties in a bunch. It's been good though as a whole because my daily listnook times probably gone from 3 hours a day to 30 minutes.
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theozzy Nov 20, 2015 +47
Thanks for the reply, I honestly think Listnook is amazing for keeping our privacy safe despite all the crack downs around the world.
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JBSLB Nov 20, 2015 +240
/u/spez is there a TL:DR for the policy as a whole?
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spez Nov 20, 2015 +359
We collect as little as possible to run the site; we share as little with advertisers as possible (specifically, we do not share individual browsing habits); and we want you to understand what you have control over (almost everything).
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onedoor Nov 20, 2015 +248
> (specifically, we do not share individual browsing habits) For those that still don't understand, you can check out /r/gonewild without worry.
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StillEnjoyLegos Nov 20, 2015 +58
Nice try babe, I'm not falling for this again.
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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +19
NSA already knows what kind of stuff you're into
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talentlessbluepanda Nov 20, 2015 +8
Great, thousands of t**** pictures without advertisers knowing I go there every 30 minutes.
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[deleted] Nov 21, 2015 +11
> we share as little with advertisers as possible (specifically, we do not share individual browsing habits) Don't you use Google Analytics though? So doesn't that mean that regardless of what *you* share, Google can still track individual browsing habits for themselves?
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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +257
[deleted]
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spez Nov 20, 2015 +258
That's always our goal. Sometimes we may be legally prohibited from doing so, or in the case of an emergency, we may delay notice.
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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +92
One thing Ellen was doing was reporting on the number of National Security Notices or whatever they're called received in a year, with the understanding that when that was not included it would not be zero. Are you continuing this policy?
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IveHad8Accounts Nov 21, 2015 +20
If he says "No," then we all get our panties in a bunch. If he says "yes," that's Exhibit A in Steve's trial for violating a gag order.
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blueshiftlabs Nov 20, 2015 +163
[Removed in protest of [Listnook's destruction of third-party apps](https://www.inc.com/jason-aten/listnook-ceo-steve-huffmans-third-party-api-debacle-is-making-elon-musk-look-like-a-strategic-genius.html) by CEO Steve Huffman.]
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undergroundmonorail Nov 20, 2015 +25
Is there any reason someone couldn't be ordered to continue publishing the warrant canary?
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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +16
[deleted]
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rlbond86 Nov 20, 2015 +14
Where is that ruling? > In July 2014, US security researcher Moxie Marlinspike stated that "every lawyer we've spoken to has confirmed that [a warrant canary] would not work" for the TextSecure server. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrant_canary#Usage
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johnbentley Nov 21, 2015 +3
To further illustrate the uselessness of warrant canaries, from your wikipedia link > In March 2015, after Australia outlawed warrant canaries, computer security and privacy specialist Bruce Schneier wrote in a blog post that "[p]ersonally, I have never believed [warrant canaries] would work. It relies on the fact that a prohibition against speaking doesn't prevent someone from not speaking. But courts generally aren't impressed by this sort of thing, and I can easily imagine a secret warrant that includes a prohibition against triggering the warrant canary. And for all I know, there are right now secret legal proceedings on this very issue. Warrant canaries seem to rely on a public secret that goes something like: we'll use an implicit message to avoid prohibitions against explicit messages; whatever you do, don't teach lawmakers and warrant drafting judges the distinction between explicit and implicit messages.
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[deleted] Nov 21, 2015 +5
[deleted]
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mountm Nov 20, 2015 +8
[Looks like they already have one](https://www.listnook.com/wiki/transparency/2014#wiki_national_security_requests)
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suulia Nov 20, 2015 +90
How does Listnook handle tracking from "private browsing" modes? Is it different from non-private browsing?
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SovietMan Nov 20, 2015 +15
Private browsing is for local logging on the user's side, like history (usually opened with ctrl-h). Useful to buy birthday presents without giving it away and such (and other things :p) Do not track is website's site. They won't turn on google's scripts and you won't get personalized ads and such. At least that's how I understand this.
15
spez Nov 20, 2015 +169
We can't tell when you're in private mode. All we see is a user that shows up once and never comes back.
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ownage516 Nov 20, 2015 +190
I bet those nsfw subs get a lot of one time members.
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StillEnjoyLegos Nov 20, 2015 +57
User | Active ---|--- Unknown User 5882|0:00:30 Unknown User 3223|0:00:42 Unknown User 564|0:00:28 Unknown User 2095|0:00:34 Grandpa_Snaps_247|0:26:30 Unknown User 10072|0:00:42 Unknown User 12731|0:00:28 Unknown User 15390|0:00:34 Unknown User 18049|0:00:42 Show_me_ur_tatas32|0:00:01 Unknown User 20708|0:00:28 Unknown User 23367|0:00:34 Unknown User 26026|0:00:40 giggity_goo_4_U | 4:32:02 Unknown User 28685 | 0:00:42 Unknown User 31344 | 0:00:28 Unknown User 34003 | 0:00:34
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Kuubaaa Nov 20, 2015 +57
giggity_goo_4_U sure is picky
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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +323
[deleted]
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spez Nov 20, 2015 +287
I always remind people, here at the mothership, many of us wear tinfoil hats, so we're generally aligned with the community on these sorts of things.
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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +73
*dons tinfoil hat* > Listnook's new policy: We may share (your) information if we believe your actions are inconsistent with our user agreements, rules, or other Listnook policies The new privacy policy has a clause that allows Listnook to entirely override all other provisions at their discretion. Why? What is the intent here?
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Boukert Nov 21, 2015 +7
You forgot these: - Except as it relates to advertisers and our ad partners, we may share information with vendors, consultants, and other service providers who need access to such information to carry out work for us; - We may share information between and among Listnook, and its current and future parents, affiliates, subsidiaries, and other companies under common control and ownership
7
[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +9
[deleted]
9
[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +11
[deleted]
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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +143
spez confirmed to be moderator of /r/conspiracy.
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BananaToy Nov 20, 2015 +55
Probably gets paid to mod
55
PicturElements Nov 20, 2015 +31
You know what, he might even get paid by listnook! The plot thickens.
31
deanxleong Nov 20, 2015 +11
Did somebody say *paid mods*? \-grabs pitchfork-
11
kerovon Nov 20, 2015 +14
Don't give in to the people saying you need to wear tinfoil hats. That is Government Disinformation. Mind control rays are just silly. They want you to not protect yourself from their sterilization rays. You need to wear tinfoil underwear.
14
LintGrazOr8 Nov 20, 2015 +299
What kind of 3rd party analytics does listnook actually use?
299
[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +332
https://imgur.com/tpehW7R Basically google. Listnook has its in-house analytics too
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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +78
[deleted]
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spez Nov 20, 2015 +131
Presently, Google, but these things come and go. One of the reasons I like DNT is a user can set it once and not worry about it.
131
haltingpoint Nov 21, 2015 +23
Can you speak to the fact that Google is able to link users to their individual computers and mobile devices based on fingerprinting technology from all of the data you will be keeping such as user-agent, browser type, OS, referral URLs, device info, etc.? I do digital media and analytics for a living and have a deep understanding of the technology at play here. I am honestly less concerned about Listnook retaining this data than Google having access to it. I can obviously block the JS for myself since I run NoScript, but I think others should be aware that Google can and does use this information to feed its ad platform. This means it can see people viewing content on a certain sublistnook, crawl the content on that page, and then link a given user to ads related to...I dunno...pregnancy tests or w/e. Listnook collecting the data isn't the threat. Handing over what is in essence everything Google needs to uniquely identify individuals (often down to the cell phone number) is.
23
[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +101
.
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spez Nov 20, 2015 +52
> We collect information about how all visitors browse the site to make listnook better. We remove personally identifiable data from this information after 90 days. This was a statement in the old policy I never liked because it's vague as to what is actually personally identifiable. Basically what it meant is that we delete our access logs after 90 days, which we will continue to do (but after 100 days).
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1241435153 Nov 21, 2015 +5
>**Except for the IP address used to create your account,** Listnook will delete any IP addresses collected after 100 days. So basically nothing's changed. Listnook still ties your user account with your original IP address. And Google Cache still saves all your old/deleted comments linked to your user account. Thanks a lot, listnook. /s
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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +168
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spez Nov 20, 2015 +43
We're still not selling or giving access to individual user data. That is important to us, and we state in the privacy we won't do this. ("This means that Listnook does not share your individual account browsing habits with advertisers.") We would like to allow advertisers to target on more than just communities, however. For example, targeting based on keywords will be helpful–there is a lot gaming content on Listnook outside of communities dedicate specifically to gaming.
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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +42
so now i'll get ads for bulk buying sharpies even after i finish browsing my favorite p*** sublistnook? awesome!
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IveHad8Accounts Nov 21, 2015 +3
I've noticed a few videos on P****** have Sharpie ads pre-rolled on to the video. Made me LOL when I first saw it. That's awesome. Sharpie is the first legitimate, non-sex industry (not directly, anyway) company to sponsor p*** that I've seen. I would love to work for an agency that figures out ways for legitimate companies to sponsor p***. Lots of celebrity cameos with sexual and masturbatory innuendos. A guy buys his affordable comprehensive auto insurance plan in like 5 minutes on esurance because his favorite cam girl starts in 6 minutes and he's eager to have a wank. A woman arranges a playdate for her kids while Hubby's at work, she plugs in a Black and Decker back massager and winks at the camera. Couple is touching each other all seductively while browsing for S&M retreats and talking about a luxury vacation - commercial ends with the husband getting spanked for booking luxury travel at affordable prices on travelocity.com. Just spit balling here. These all would need workshopped, but how fun would that be? You know what, I'm starting 8 Accounts Studio. We're specialists in non-standard advertising. I've been sitting on a concept for a few months now for the billboard's more sophisticated alter-ego, the Williamboard. We've got this. Who's with me?
3
Wasabicannon Nov 20, 2015 +13
Think of it as a push into contributing to that favorite sublistnook.
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ratchetthunderstud Nov 20, 2015 +4
Hey /u/spez, I'm sure you've got several replies to read through and will be quite busy communicating what this policy will and will not do, though if you have the time to address some of my questions I would really appreciate it! **To save some time, the below basically asks about:** *User control over advertisement frequency, ability to suppress ads that are unwanted* *Consideration for data usage, as many users are affected by data caps* I'm not sure how this would play out, but would it be possible to allow users to set a preference for advertising frequency, or the ability to "squelch" certain ads? I'm a cord-cutter, and I am quite wary of excessive and obsessive advertisement through any form of media. It would be great to have some semblance of control over what I see and how often I see it, without needing to be cautious about the context of my comments. It's a big part of what drives me away from websites, or tv stations, or radio; not having some degree of control and being force-fed information that I really do not care to experience. Additionally, how will this play out for mobile users, or any user who has an Internet Service Provider that imposes a data cap? Will the ads be primarily text based, image links, videos, some combination of all? If ads are to be served up, is there some consideration for the data usage, perhaps a maximum allowable file size based on what medium the advertisement is being served through? Thanks!
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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +11
[deleted]
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twenafeesh Nov 20, 2015 +29
>I encourage everyone to understand how browsers and the web work and what steps you can take to protect your own privacy. Notably, browsers allow you to disable third-party cookies, and you can customize your browser with a variety of privacy-related extensions. This can't be emphasized enough. This should be a required class in high school (or maybe even elementary school, IMO). I've met too many people who think they're being tracked illegally when in reality they just don't understand how their browsers work. Thanks for being proactive in documenting changes to the privacy policy and keeping your users informed. Other tech companies could take a hint from you.
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spez Nov 20, 2015 +25
Right, we only see what's given to us. Personal responsibility is important in all of this. One of our responsibilities is to educate users on what control they actually have, which is quite a bit.
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AssuredlyAThrowAway Nov 20, 2015 +18
Thanks for clarifying the privacy policy spez. Are you enjoying your time back at the helm? *Edit: typo
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spez Nov 20, 2015 +36
Loving it. I get to work on challenging and meaningful things with great people. And, if anyone would like to join us, we're hiring: https://www.listnook.com/jobs
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ACollectiveSigh Nov 20, 2015 +27
I have no qualifications but I'm a twenty year old intent on fighting the machine until the machine pays me off. When do I start?
27
_hai Nov 20, 2015 +51
If all that has changed in the Privacy Policy is the IP retention span I don't have a problem with this. For all the complaining done about censorship etc (which I agree with) Listnook has had a stellar record to date of maintaining user privacy. Keep up the good work! edit: Wow! Thanks for the gold!
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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +25
>we are also beginning to roll out support for Do Not Track Awesome. Good stuff. I thought I had an important question to ask, but I forgot. So instead; 1. What goes best on a sandwich? 2. How goes the Android App?
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spez Nov 20, 2015 +35
1. Turkey, cheese, lettuce (I went through a sprouts phase, but we're all have silly things in our past), mayo 2. It's coming along! A little slower than planned, but that's software for you.
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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +45
[deleted]
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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +16
>Nothing is said about if there exists the ability of the Listnook admins' to view my PMs without my permission. Everything on listnook is a 'thing' Comments, posts, users, messages, sublistnooks, etc. 'Things' have various permissions, each thing may have a different set of permissions, but all 'things' have a permission that says what ranks can view it. Admins have the ability to view every 'thing', no matter the type. This includes: Comments, posts, sublistnooks, messages, and more. So yes, admins have the technical ability to read your PMs. --- As for when they actually do this, they probably aren't going through them for lulz, but I have had admins look into and view PMs sent to me that were harassing, threatening, or those shitty shock images. So yes, its very possible for the admins to view your PMs, and they do not require your permission. However, they really aren't going to do so unless they have very good reason to.
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[deleted] Nov 22, 2015 +130
Just been having a quick look. From the current version:- **Your Private Information Is Never for Sale.** **Certain third party sites may offer users the option to log in using their listnook id (for example, listnookgifts). This option is only an authentication tool and does not transmit any new personal information to or from listnook, or give listnook access to details of subsequent actions taken on these sites.** https://www.listnook.com/help/privacypolicy?v=33a67dd2-e2c6-11e4-807a-22000b248ffc In the new version there seem to be no such guarantees about not selling user data. **We may partner with third-party advertisers, ad networks, and analytics providers to deliver advertising and content targeted to your interests and to better understand your use of the Services.** https://www.listnook.com/help/privacypolicy?v=e8c8da2a-8faf-11e5-aac4-0eb32ca8011f Notice how they say they are "updating" the privacy policy rather than taking away your privacy? Seriously guys. Read them both. Maybe I'm just being cynical, but it looks like a big "f*** you" to privacy.
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nolog Nov 23, 2015 +22
This comment needs to be higher up. What's up with all this circlejerk celebrating listnook's supposedly caring about privacy?
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sinni800 Nov 24, 2015 +6
Logging IPs is senseless anyway, people roam IPs like f***. So not logging them is actually just sensible, imho. The missing "we don't sell your data" speaks volumes... The IP thing seems like a fig leaf. EDIT: Oh damn they do store it longer, oh well! But still, not storing IPs seems like a fig leaf.
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USmellFunny Nov 24, 2015 +15
So listnook's privacy policy changed from "We will not share, sell, or give away any of our users’ personal information to third parties" to: We will not share, sell, or give away any of our users’ personal information to third parties, unless one of the following circumstances applies: Except as it relates to advertisers and our ad partners, we may share information with vendors, consultants, and other service providers who need access to such information to carry out work for us; If you participate in contests, sweepstakes, promotions, special offers, or other events or activities in connection with our Services, we may share information with entities that partner with us to provide these offerings; We may share information (and will attempt to provide you with prior notice, to the extent legally permissible) in response to a request for information if we believe disclosure is in accordance with, or required by, any applicable law, regulation, legal process or governmental request; We may share information in response to an emergency if we believe it's necessary to prevent imminent and serious bodily harm to a person; We may share information if we believe your actions are inconsistent with our user agreements, rules, or other Listnook policies, or to protect the rights, property, and safety of ourselves and others; We may share information between and among Listnook, and its current and future parents, affiliates, subsidiaries, and other companies under common control and ownership; and We may share information with your consent or at your direction.
15
Boukert Nov 21, 2015 +43
Sooo: - Except as it relates to advertisers and our ad partners, we may share information with vendors, consultants, and other service providers who need access to such information to carry out work for us; - We may share information if we believe your actions are inconsistent with our user agreements, rules, or other Listnook policies, or to protect the rights, property, and safety of ourselves and others; - We may share information between and among Listnook, and its current and future parents, affiliates, subsidiaries, and other companies under common control and ownership ----------- So basically you can do with our information whatever you want. This is just screwing over your volunteer userbase to make a quick buck on our personal information! this is not protecting the users or listnook. This is just a big f*** you to users. I cannot believe you actually are forcing this down our throats this is an absolute disgrace and an insult to everyone trying to make listnook a better place.
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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +93
Wow the comments in this thread.... I can't believe the reaction some of you people have to this. >We will not share, sell, or give away any of our users’ personal information to third parties, unless one of the following circumstances applies: Except as it relates to advertisers and our ad partners, we may share information with vendors, consultants, and other service providers who need access to such information to carry out work for us; If you participate in contests, sweepstakes, promotions, special offers, or other events or activities in connection with our Services, we may share information with entities that partner with us to provide these offerings; We may share information (and will attempt to provide you with prior notice, to the extent legally permissible) in response to a request for information if we believe disclosure is in accordance with, or required by, any applicable law, regulation, legal process or governmental request; We may share information in response to an emergency if we believe it's necessary to prevent imminent and serious bodily harm to a person; We may share information if we believe your actions are inconsistent with our user agreements, rules, or other Listnook policies, or to protect the rights, property, and safety of ourselves and others; We may share information between and among Listnook, and its current and future parents, affiliates, subsidiaries, and other companies under common control and ownership; and We may share information with your consent or at your direction. So listnook tells you that they are going to be whoring themselves out to any government that asks and advertisers by selling your information for better targeted ads, and you guys applaud their DNT policy. Combined with the idiots that think it's a good idea to kill the downvote button, you have a fantastic facebook formula.
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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +14
[deleted]
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[deleted] Nov 23, 2015 +17
[deleted]
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CommanderpKeen Nov 20, 2015 +42
It says that listnook collects basically everything our browser gives you, AKA our entire browser footprint. That's a pretty unique identifier, is it not? Using privacy extensions actually makes the footprint even more unique too.
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DeimosNyx Nov 28, 2015 +4
I see you talked a big game about being anti-doxxing, but can you, /u/spez, explain this: > We may share information if we believe your actions are inconsistent with our user agreements, rules, or other Listnook policies, or to protect the rights, property, and safety of ourselves and others; Sorry, *buddy,* you don't get to pretend to be principled with such laughably broad clauses. You don't get to pretend you're acting in anyone's best interest but yourself. Especially us listnook old timers -- we know full well what a "listnook rule" is, and we all know it's something not written down unless you swallow the estrogen-laden sperm of Alexis, which I might note is a name typically afforded to multiple women with r*** fantasies, in my actual experience. Just saying. Despite this, Steve, I feel you are a more intelligent person than Alexis. I get he was around from the beginning, but sometimes out with the old and in with the new, y'know? I know the whole listnook boat is manned (oooh, gendered language) with incompetents, and the only reason this site ever had a semblance of a soul was because of Aaron Swartz, I'm good at reading people, Steve. WAKE UP STEVE! Maybe perform some sort of hostile takeover or something, mhm? I'm good at that sort of thing, if you want tips. If you want wisdom, ask a diabolical m***********. Shame about Aaron, really, he was a good guy. Too bad he never met me, he'd still be alive. Can't be both the hero and idealistic, always tell people to never go that route...
4
midoge Nov 23, 2015 +20
Old: [Your Private Information Is Never for Sale](https://www.listnook.com/help/privacypolicy?v=33a67dd2-e2c6-11e4-807a-22000b248ffc#section_listnook_privacy_policy_effective_apr_14.2C_2015) New: / So why?
20
mafutrct Nov 23, 2015 +21
This has to be a bloody joke. You did NOT mention the important change regarding sale of private data (that were even _promised_ to be kept private indefinitely). This is the pure opposite of transparency. You're throwing a red herring at us with the extension of IP storage but do not mention that? You have to be fkidding me.
21
dnew Nov 20, 2015 +11
Is there a reason you reserve the right to reduce the level of privacy users have without asking them first? What steps do you take if you reduce the privacy of users to ensure you don't reduce the privacy of users who have not accepted the new privacy policy?
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some_random_kaluna Nov 20, 2015 +27
>Individually, you have control over what information you share with us and what your browser sends to us automatically. I encourage everyone to understand how browsers and the web work and what steps you can take to protect your own privacy. Notably, browsers allow you to disable third-party cookies, and you can customize your browser with a variety of privacy-related extensions. "We're going to track everything you do and sell it to everybody for as much money as we can, so if you don't want a Listnook colonoscopy, secure your own damn computer." Got it. Thanks for the update.
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Icon_Crash Nov 21, 2015 +8
> We will not share, sell, or give away any of our users’ personal information to third parties, unless one of the following circumstances applies: > Except as it relates to advertisers and our ad partners, we may share information with vendors, consultants, and other service providers who need access to such information to carry out work for us;
8
MR46DAYAT59 Dec 3, 2015 +2
||||||||+|+|+o0o+|+|+||||||||[]{}|"|"|"|"|"o0o'|'|'|'|'|{}[]/_\/_\/_\/_\//_/o0o\_/\_/\_/\_/\_/;;;SISA WAKTU UNTUK MENCARI PAHALA TINGGAL 1,5 BULAN..!!!?!!! SESUDAH ITU TIDAK BERGUNA LAGI ..!!!?! TIME TO LOOKING FOR THE REWARDS. 1,5 MONTHS AGAIN..!!!?!!##[edit source] >>>(o0o)<<<|*|*|*o0o*|*|*|<{}<{}<{}o0o{}>{}>{}>o][o][o][o\>\>['][']o0o['][']#$@$@#$#!#^!#^!#^o0o^#!^#!^#!{>{>{>{>|||||||o0oo0oo0o||||||||<{<{<{<}<}<}\.\,\+__.,.,{>[{{>>[[{{{>>>[[[o0o]]]<<<}}}]]<<}}]<} UANG TIDAK MASALAH..!!!!! MONEY, NO. PROBLEM..!!!! WE'LL GIVE MONEY MORE THAN $ 6.000/ PERSON.@MR46DAYAT'][']['][']['][']o0o]'[]'[]'[]'[]'[]'[o0o|<>|<>|<>|<>|<>|<>|<>|<>o0o<>|<>|<>|<>|<>|<>|<>|<>|<>|o0o{}'{UANG TIDAK MASALAH..!!!!! MONEY, NO. PROBLEM..!!!! WE'LL GIVE MONEY MORE THAN $ 6.000/ PERSON.@MR46DAYAT'][']['][']['][']o0o]'[]'[]'[]'[]'[]'[o0o|<>|<>|<>|<>|<>|<>|<>|<>o0o<>|<>|<>|<>|<>|<>|<>|<>|<>|o0o{}'{}'{}'{}'{}'o0o{}'{}'{}'{}'{}'/]/]/]o0o\]\]\]\] November 25 th, 2015. THE WORKING, FREE CHOICE.. !!!! 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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +38
[deleted]
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The_Strange_Remain Nov 20, 2015 +7
I've been banned from sublistnooks for very fair reasons for being a d***. I've ALSO been banned from numerous ones just because a moderator disagreed with something I said that contained no personal attack or profanity of any sort. Everything Listnook could be is entirely undermined by moderation without meaningful oversight. Users are absolutely not free to discuss a topic any way they like in an environment where there is no meaningful appeals process or oversight. It utterly devalues the point of users curatng the quality of discourse via karma. Until this problem is addressed no privacy policy matters. And until it is addressed Listnook shall pass no ads through my browser, I can guarantee you that.
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Grasdaggel Nov 23, 2015 +13
Why do you have removed the "Your Private Information Is Never for Sale"-paragraphs?
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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +3
[deleted]
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SoulWager Nov 20, 2015 +6
>I believe in the future we will be able to accomplish this without storing IPs at all (e.g. with hashing), but we still need to work out the details. How exactly do you securely hash a 4 byte search space?
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[deleted] Nov 24, 2015 +9
Once again another sneaky update disguised as a good thing. And all the top comments are praising this massive violation of our privacies. Good lord save us.
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Pakaru Nov 21, 2015 +3
Not related to the privacy policy, but what's up with your forum selection clause? > Any claim or dispute between you and us arising out of or relating to this user agreement, in whole or in part, shall be governed by the laws of the State of California without respect to its conflict of laws provisions. We agree and you agree to submit to the personal jurisdiction and venue of the state and federal court located in San Francisco County, California. And the forced arbitration clause, prohibition on class-actions, and waiver of all warranties? You're selling the privacy policy in some persona of "Look how chill we are!" Then you turn around and have extremely consumer-unfriendly contracted terms of service. Very not-chill. There's a reason people like Elizabeth Warren are against arbitration agreements, especially with waivers of class-action. You're basically trying to waive liability for any wrongdoing that you, or employees down the road, might do. And if anything happens every listnookor will be screwed.
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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +11
Just want to get something off my chest: please please please don't change. 'Social media' has been a huge force for change over the past few years but recently it's becoming less about the user and more about the money. Facebook isn't a social media platform anymore, it's an advertising channel. Snapchat have started showing adverts and making people pay for useless add-ons, Instagram and Twitter have loads of 'promoted' or 'sponsored' posts. I just read tonight that Netflix are beginning to show adverts and the news from the digital marketing industry (in which I work) is that ['Whatsapp is the next big for marketing'](http://digitalmarketingmagazine.co.uk/e-commerce-digital-marketing/three-ways-whatsapp-can-help-e-commerce-companies/2203). It's so frustrating to see these great platforms that we championed here on Listnook as a break from the traditional shite turning into the same faceless corporations that we were originally trying to get away from. Please, don't start seeing 'users' as 'cash cows' and view us as your raison d'etre. This isn't particularly aimed at anything you've done recently, I just don't want Listnook to become the new Daily Mail.
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The_Strange_Remain Nov 21, 2015 +6
Social media is the single most virulent force in dulling the minds of users since crack cocaine. It is the perversion of the foundational purpose of the WWW. Every social media platform, including listnook, is geared to silence dissenting view points, to intentionally stunt unpopular discourse for the purposes of advertising. If you thought you were doing anything other than participating in a commercial, you were fooling yourself. It's been this way since its inception, they've just refined the idea more and more with each passing year. You were ALWAYS listnook's cash cow.
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spez Nov 20, 2015 +647
Also, thank you u/orangejulius and u/courtiebabe420 for reading drafts of the Policy!
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black_brotha Nov 20, 2015 +707
why is he always being given gold for doing his job ? whenever he posts a new thread , he gets showered with gold ..he gets paid already to do that. some of us deserve gold more than him
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Bjartr Nov 23, 2015 +3
>why is he always being given gold for doing his job ? Because people want to. >he gets paid already to do that. And some people choose to give him some more. Perhaps they are trying to use gold like tipping, which is also paying someone more for something they already get paid to do. >some of us deserve gold more than him Anyone can gild whoever they want for any reason they choose. If you think there are others who should be gilded, go gild them.
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spez Nov 20, 2015 +572
Have some gold, friend.
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languidity_ Nov 21, 2015 +736
why is /u/black_brotha always being given gold for commenting about someone doing his job and getting gold ? whenever he posts a new comment , he gets showered with gold ..the people he talks about gets paid already to do that. some of us deserve gold more than him EDIT: omg rip my inbox lelelol thanx for gilding kind strangers this reelly blew up lolel im on front page cum jerk my circle xD
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blunkraft96 Nov 21, 2015 +121
im just gonna stop this circle before its fully formed yet ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
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[deleted] Nov 21, 2015 +55
[deleted]
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BrunetteBeautyX Nov 21, 2015 +78
Here you go, fr Jk. I'm broke
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[deleted] Nov 21, 2015 +30
[deleted]
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Obandigo Nov 21, 2015 +8
The only gold I ever got was in the form of a shower. But even then it was accidental, and more like a tinkle.
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[deleted] Nov 21, 2015 +43
[Here you go friend](https://i.imgur.com/NkcCsFf.jpg)
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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +142
For those that don't know, I'm like 99.9999% certain that to be an /r/IAmA mod, you need to be a lawyer : ^ )
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ddrddrddrddr Nov 20, 2015 +27
But where do lawyers get the time to moderate?
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orangejulius Nov 20, 2015 +55
IAMA has some pretty clever policy that makes modding easier. We also have a few slack integrations that we made that allow us to do stuff from slack in one little command rather than have to click and copy and paste of bunch of stuff in listnook to add flair or approve a contributor or whatever. The bulk of the work actually happens off site.
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MuhBEANS Nov 26, 2015 +3
Is the privacy policy retroactive? Like is the new privacy policy applicable to everything posted on the site including all content posted prior to Jan 1st 2016, or does this new policy only apply to content posted when it becomes effective? By discontinuing to use listnook after this period would that be an opt out of the new policy and it would not be applicable to that account and all content it has posted. Are we tracked by account or by IP? Could we opt out of the new policy by stopped use on one account and creating a new one under the new policy or would the old account still be linked via IP. What is considered opting in to the new policy once it is effective, will posting be required as acknowledgment of the new policy of will simply logging in trigger a opt in? Will visiting the site from an IP linked to an account trigger an out in? I would appreciate answers to these questions as it is vital to my decision on whether or not I continue to use this site. Thank you.
3
matessim Nov 20, 2015 +4
Hashes on just IP addresses won't work. At least not in IPv4.the address space is small enough to generate a full hash map of it in pretty much every hash algorithm (even if you use something very slow like bcrypt. You only need to generate the set once. Unless you change salts every quarter. Which is still doubtful if it's any help. You can salt with the username itself or something. But that pretty much counters the original purpose of being able to match)
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awhatyousay Nov 20, 2015 +12
Steve, could you please clarify your position on Alien Blue? I paid for the app back before it was acquired by listnook. And once in a while you(right now for example), you put ads in the app until there is an outrage. Then rinse and repeat in a month. I also bought the premium, which was suppose to be your workaround this problem, when you first acquired the app but I'm still seeing ads in the app. So basically, what is this shit? This is starting to feel like CISPA.
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DoorMarkedPirate Nov 20, 2015 +12
Out of curiosity, why aren't the IP addresses encrypted and hashed already? I imagine usernames and passwords are already treated like that, so is it to computationally intensive to do so with IP addresses because dynamic ones change so frequently? Or is it because you need them for location tracking?
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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +29
[deleted]
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spez Nov 20, 2015 +30
> There's no point in hashing IP addresses -- it's such a small search space, an attacker would be able to reverse the hash in hours. Our thinking is to hash with a salt and throw away the salts periodically. For abuse, we mostly care about "is this IP the same?"
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daveime Nov 21, 2015 +3
There's no point in IP addresses at all to be honest. Anyone who is serious about abuse will find a proxy, or a VPN to mask their location. Many users will be on dynamic IPs that change every 2-3 hours. Many more will be surfing Listnook in a coffee shop or mall wifi hotspot. You're playing a game of punch the monkey, with 4294967296 monkeys to choose from. And the end result will be random innocent people finding they're unable to post because the IP they're currently using has been banned.
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ecvayh Nov 20, 2015 +6
Image how less useful [the account activity page](https://www.listnook.com/account-activity) would be if you couldn't determine if that IP who logged in was you at your in-laws or someone on the other side of the globe.
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elkab0ng Nov 20, 2015 +4
Howdy. I'm curious if third-party add-ons (RIF, RES) have to abide by any standards for privacy and handling of sensitive information? Are there any guidelines for that, or options that users can choose from within listnook itself, that affects how/what information is given to other apps which have access to listnook's authentication?
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[deleted] Nov 25, 2015 +4
I think I've accepted the terms of services about 20 times the past half hour. Every time I open a new thread or reload the front page, the f****** "ookies help us deliver our Services. By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. Learn More" shows up.
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shadowq8 Nov 24, 2015 +13
https://imgur.com/a/DGKau liars
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flounder19 Nov 20, 2015 +16
Does /r/chillingeffects really show all takedown requests? They seem way too infrequent for a site this big.
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[deleted] Nov 20, 2015 +12
Many smart places go after the image host, not listnook.
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merreborn Nov 20, 2015 +4
https://www.listnook.com/wiki/transparency/2014 They only got <20 DMCAs per month in 2014. Very, very low for a site as big as listnook. Probably helps that they don't rank terribly well in google, and the site doesn't host much content itself -- keeping them off DMCA-issuers radars
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