We Can’t Income-Tax Ultra-Elites. We Must Tax Their Wealth.

As soon as someone uses their wealth as collateral, it should become a "realized" gain and be taxable. That one small thing would literally fix a lot of issues. Ahhh, but I forget myself; it's simply too easy, so it will never happen.

We need to do both. We should add more income tax brackets up to at least 50%, tax all income over $1 million as ordinary income, and institute a wealth tax for anyone with over $100 million of assets. We also need to raise the corporate tax rate to at least 30% and eliminate all the bs write-offs like private jets, 1st class plane tickets, luxury suites at sports events, and concerts.

The real truth is that these people have become so rich we realistically won’t be able to do much to them right now without a massive culture shift.

Remove the SBLOC loan so they can't use their stock wealth as collateral for real money.

Just ban loans that use stock as collateral. Most these wealthy people just take out loans against their stocks so they never have to sell or pay taxes. Then make capital gains an increasing tax. Move towards brackets based on amount sold and investment horizon.

If they insist on consolidating American wealth we'll just have to insist they f****** leave, because afaic that's blatant wealth profiteering.

Tue issue is. Most of it is paper wealth. Stocks hold no actually value. It won't do much. Better to. A. Close all loopholes. B. Tax loans taken on sahres. C. Ban stockbuybacks.

Bernie is the best President we never had.

More than just tax their wealth, we must take their wealth. Billionaires present an existential threat to democracy and we are seeing it play out right now in real time.

Make it illegal to borrow against the projected value of equities and strictly financial assets. Then make every billionaire's capital gains taxes forcibly short term instead of permitting to take long term gains. Just end "long term" rates for anyone holding more than $1b. Force 'em to give those assets to their children and to otherwise make distributions that are taxable with inheritance taxes or expatriation taxes.

It’s complicated. I agree in parts but how you tax unrealized gains? Would you credit unrealized losses?  We need to first try to fix the loopholes they use and there is plenty, also things like shortening, get money and loans over unrealized gains should not be allowed, or in the case of the latter… taxable  

No borrowing against their wealth/assets. If they need money, they should sell their shit like other people who need cash.

While we are at it, lets make the government fix their insane spending habits yeah? 

Loans using collateral could easily have a component of truing up the cost basis of the underlining asset and force a tax event.  Easy and not hard from an accounting standpoint.  

Trump and the GOP are concentrating economic power and resources into the hands of the few, including Trump himself who has so far monetized his presidency to the tune of BILLIONS. They safeguard these billionaires from accountability and criticism while insisting that the richest and most powerful among us are being victimized by a "radical left" movement. This messaging resonates with conservatives because they've always belonged to the party that protects billionaires and the upper class, arguing that they are inherently superior, and that they are a precious minority. The irony right? But over the last decade or so, conservatives have settled into this role by framing their politics and identity around defending, electing and sympathizing with powerful and rich elites, corrupt and wealthy technocrats, "strongmen" and kleptocratic authoritarians like Trump and his closest allies. The guardians of the "Epstein class." They feel entitled to ownership and control over information and they CELEBRATE these massive, multinational corporations and their rich executives and shareholders who are determined to monopolize all forms of media. Conservatives push back against "tax the rich" policies, arguing that billionaires "earned" their wealth and supply jobs while benefitting workers. This is a myth that's been perpetuated alongside "trickle down" theories. Billionaires choose to invest in themselves, not their workers, and certainly not political candidates who advocate for labor rights, better working conditions, higher wages, etc... Many of these billionaires inherit or stumble into their wealth and they often become richer through exploitative practices that only reinforce economic inequality and divide. They exploit a system which exploits others. They accrue more wealth just by sitting on it and they are rewarded just for being rich with tax cuts, entitlements, "handouts," subsidies, even BAILOUTS. Their secret motto is "socialism for the rich, rugged individualism for the poor," and their conservative mascots embrace this philosophy. Their wealth is often tied to the value of oligarchic corporations and financial institutions, as well as the health and status of the macroenvironment. Which means that the interests of the few far outweighthe interests of the many. In other words, Republicans believe that the rich are more valuable as PEOPLE in every sense. So when law and policy makers talk about improving the economy, they're really talking about improving the lives of the top 1%. It's simple enough. But not for voters who champion the causes of the ultra rich. These voters will never belong to their exclusive club, yet noless support Republican policies that unfairly accommodate the interests of the rich and the upper class. They cheer at "strong" economic figures, but fail to acknowledge the underlying data that reveal deepening inequalities. This corrupt system also disproportionately taxes income over wealth; incentivizing the rich to stockpile their wealth and take out loans to avoid paying taxes on it. Debt is a powerful tool for the rich, but a burden for the rest. These billionaires have a significant influence over the outcomes of our elections and political leverage when it comes to dictating policy. Some are even appointed to high ranking positions within the government where they use their power to disrupt labor organizing, to roll back or bypass regulations, to serve employers and corporate interests, and to suppress wages and workers' rights. They also have a moratorium on political propaganda, which is why we see conservatives forsaking their own self interests to defend and elect the rich. And for the rich to continue amassing wealth, a portion of the populace must endure exploitation and economic repression. An uncomfortable truth that Republican voters either choose to ignore or consent to out of some misplaced sense of loyalty towards their overlords. And I'm not sure which is worse.

Piketty argues, with an unprecedentedly large and deep data set behind him, that taxing, or otherwise destroying, wealth is _essential_ for stable democratic society to persist. History indicates that the massive accumulations of wealth that we have now is intrinsically destabilizing and incompatible with a free, democratic society that advances the well-being of citizens at large.  We're riding out the end-times of the unintended positive consequences of the massive destruction of oligarchs' wealth in the World Wars era.

Set the corporate tax to an agreed 'global' corporate tax with Europe, and make it hard to terminate people so AI can't lay everyone off. You'd want to also incentivize hiring within the country. However, make capital investments very easy so companies can still get lots of money and funding for startups etc. Part of this should incentivize funding of companies and profits. You'd also want to have a high $1m increased tax bracket and make the lower tax brackets much wider to match actual income and inflation. This would basically balance out so the lower and middle classes, and the lower upper class (working professionals for example) can build wealth and also keep/make incentives for entrepreneurship.

Can we tax trades? Transfers of assets. Bitcoin, Stocks, Bonds. Tax the transfer of money.

How? They dodge taxes now, wouldn't they just find ways to dodge this?

Why don't we just flip it? Make the income tax the same as the current capitol gains tax, and make the wealth tax the same as the current income tax? Anyone who takes a personal loan against their stake in a company gets taxed as income!

Wealth taxes are bad policy, and are also likely unconstitutional. There are better (and more realistic) ways

Why don’t we just tax the loans they take out against their assets as income. A wealth tax is big r word.

Tax loans on stocks (SBLOC / LAS). Buy, borrow, die deprives America of billions in revenue.

I don’t agree with taxing unrealized gains. But I think the easiest and most common sense way to tax stock market billionaires is to tax any loans backed by stock as the same as they are realizing gains based on the loan itself and adjusting cost basis up to the loan value on x number of shares. So for example, someone wants to take out a $40m loan against their stock to buy a yacht, at the time of the loan you look at the price per share and how many shares is backed by the loan - and then when you extract the $40m then your cost basis for those shares rises to the price of the loan for that number of shares and it creates a taxable event. Basically tax loans on asset backed collateral as stepping up the asset cost basis and thus realizing a taxable gain. Using a house as a stand in for unrealized stock gains may be a simpler example of what I’m talking about (BTW, I don’t think we should do this for single home family owners - it’s just an example). So for example, You bought a house for $100k 5 years ago but the market pushes the value of house to $200k. if you sit on it, then nothing happens (unrealized gains) as nothing is realized or unrealized until you sell it. But if you take out a $50k HELOC based on the $100k appreciation of your house, then you realized $50k in gains and that should/could be taxed as realized gains. It’s just an example so disregard property taxes increases in this example. But if you extract a loan backed by an asset (stock) - that should be counted as capital gains and taxed. Note: this is the loophole stock billionaires use. They don’t sell their stock, they take out loans against it. It even allows them to deduct the loan as a liability instead of an asset. It’s ass backwards they can do that and why they make low income and even claim they are in debt in a year they take out a massive loan.

People shouting tax their wealth don’t realize that their 401k and homes are fair game too. Taxing people for unrealized gains no matter how much wealth or value of the assets is dumb. Why should I get taxed for something that is worth millions of dollars if I sold… before selling it? There’s a reason we don’t treat unrealized asset value as taxable income. It’s unrealistic. What you want to do is tax the loan that they take out using the asset as collateral. But again, that creates a problem for middle and lower class once more. Edit: forgot this is the r/politics sub and people generally don’t actually like conversation here, only infighting which contributes to the distraction that is our political system. I’m not supporting hoarding vast sums of wealth from the rest of the 99% and also not suggesting we do nothing. I’m just saying most people that say things like tax the rich don’t actually know how to effectively tax the rich without harming themselves in the process and which the rich are more poised to rebound from which restarts the vicious cycle of capitalism.

What we need is a separate and dedicated tax allocated only to the national defense budget. I call this the “asset protection tax” and would have a small progressive income tax component and a dominant wealth tax component. Most of the tax revenues from this asset protection tax would come from the rich who need the national defense infrastructure much more than the middle class to protect their worldwide assets. So by having a tax dedicated to the national defense budget, the warhawks can have as much money as they want for national defense if they have the political will to force the rich to pay for it. Need a couple more Ford-class carrier? Increase the asset protection tax. Need $200 billion to fund a war against Elbonia? Increase the asset protection tax. Need to send $20 billion of smart missiles to Israel? Increase the asset protection tax. The neocons, warhawks, Zionists, etc. can face off against the billionaire class on how much of the national defense budget to fund each year. The lower and middle class can watch the drama while munching on popcorn.

Tax the use of capital assets when used , I.E. when I borrow money against my stocks that damn well realizes that asset … then it’s taxable , stop playing silly games .

We need to tax leveraging wealth. Not wealth. There's an important nuance here in how wealth is used, and prevents arguments from being distracted by those who claim it's immoral or impossible to tax unrealized gains. Please, I'm begging anyone who reads this to learn and understand the distinction and why it's important. Read the majority of negative sentiment in this thread and they will point out the reasons why. Don't let it be a distraction. Talk about taxing the real problem: leverage.

That is thing... The wealthy elites don't have income, or even money. They have stocks, investments, valuable things. And they have debt. They borrow money to buy more valuable things, that will increase in value because they have them, and others thus want them. They buy those valuable things, to be wealthier, because those things are so valuable, they are unattainable by normal folk, and thus part of that world. They truly live in a world that unlike ours, where everything represents their wealth, represents how they are not us. The real world, and its rules, don't apply to them.

We can tax their asset-backed loans as ordinary income. And we can raise the top bracket from 37% to 50% for income or loans above $10 million.

It is the only way, no free lunches will happen, only more debt, job insecurity and renting which will be used to control us.

seize it, then deport them

Cap the personal income of everyone at a dollar below a billion dollars. Nobody is allowed to have a billion dollars. Take every dollar they’re over and put it in a fund. That fund pays for Food, Clothing, Shelter, and Healthcare for everyone in America. In a locked box. If you can’t survive on a billion a year you’re bad with money and shouldn’t have that much anyway.

Don’t sell their stocks to avoid capital gains tax. Instead borrow against the portfolio using that as collateral. They usually get a loan rate you and I will never see. So they live off the loan, possibly write off the interest and have very little “income” to tax. Yes taxing their wealth is the answer.

Just prevent them from taking out loans on their assets.

No shit. So what are our politicians going to do about it? Nothing? Sounds about right.

We must tax everything they do just a little bit. Taxing their wealth may also be difficult.

We CAN income tax them, too -- it's called capital gains income tax. Because investment income is still income.

Not to be cynical but a lot of highly intelligent professionals work very hard to find loopholes for billionaires. However, George Washington successfully enacted a wealth tax back in 1794 and Hamilton successfully argued for it at the Supreme Court in 1796. Congress could update the Carriage Tax with the modern day version of the carriage - private plane. And tax helicopters too while they're at it. They can make up a new tax or taxes; increase the measly jet fuel tax by 20/50/70x and do the same with landing fees. I mean what are they going to do, fly commercial? Land at a cheaper airport and then be stuck in traffic for three hours? We have leverage on them on this. Let's use it to our advantage and save democracy!

I like the idea of 0.5% tax on all stock trades. If you buy and hold, it costs hardly anything. But taxing the high volume trading will either bring in more tax revenue or discourage people from trading which makes corporate decisions less volatile (since they aren't only looking at this quarter) like the one that resulted in me being laid off last Nov.

The cost of being rich in one of the richest countries on earth should be high, as a nation we should institutionalize policies to ensure only those willing to play by more equitable rules and pay their fair share (proportional to their level of wealth) can generate and maintain such a high level of prosperity. As a nation we’ve allowed ourselves to be ruled by fear from this current stock of greedy rich assholes. Average people who spread the fear mongering propaganda that if we do anything to help the average person, the rich will just take their ball (their business and jobs) and go home. Wild take here, but crimes of extreme self serving greed and crimes of extreme public office corruption should be punishable up to death if a jury can agree the offense was that extreme. We need to design a system that deters the worst type of greedy shitheads while still attracting opportunistic capitalist that are willing to play by more equitable rules to be disgustingly rich.

Tax capital equal to labor. Eliminate carried interest. Eliminate the social security cap. Tell them to work smarter, not harder.

Make all private assets public. You don’t have a right to profit, you also don’t have a right to monetize off of someone else’s suffering g

I look forward to the Peasant Revolution.

It's very simple - tax unrealised gains and allow the option to pay that tax using shares of the respective assets rather than money.

Or just confiscate it as destabilizing to the overall economy, considering it's mostly speculative value turned into debt that encourages stock market manipulation to prevent margin call.

We? The worl is governed by they

I think it’s pretty simple. Tax capital gains. Let it 0% for everyone on the first $100K. That helps the working class and middle class retirees. Then it increases incrementally up to 80% at $100M (or pick a number). No deductions, it’s mandatory tax.

Put capital gains on shares of companies.  What? They ruined it for you. 

A progressive tax system First, the brackets should rise gradually instead of having big jumps. If tax rates slowly increase as income increases, people don’t feel like they’re being punished for earning a little more. For example, low income might be taxed very lightly, middle income moderately, and very high income more heavily, but the increases happen step-by-step. Second, income should be taxed the same regardless of where it comes from. One of the biggest fairness complaints in the U.S. is that wages are often taxed more heavily than things like capital gains or dividends. A system where income from work and investment is taxed under the same progressive brackets would feel more balanced to a lot of people. Third, the first portion of income should be taxed little or not at all. Many people view it as fair that money needed for basic living expenses isn’t heavily taxed, and that taxes mainly apply once someone has significant discretionary income. Fourth, closing loopholes tends to matter more for perceived fairness than constantly raising rates. People are generally more accepting of higher top rates if they believe wealthy taxpayers actually pay them instead of avoiding them through deductions or offshore strategies. Finally, some economists suggest a minimum effective tax rate for very high earners. The idea is that once someone reaches extremely high income levels, they shouldn’t be able to reduce their total tax rate below a certain floor regardless of deductions. When you combine gradual brackets, equal treatment of income sources, protections for low income, and fewer loopholes, a progressive system tends to feel more fair to people across the political spectrum.

WE MUST REDUCE SPENDING. if we taxed 100% of all the wealth of the billionaires in the US which is 8.4 trillion dollars, that only equals 1 year of federal spending. 1 YEAR! After we take all they money from the billionaires what will be the solution then? Most of these billionaires get their money from injection from GOVERNMENT SPENDING. LOOK AT ELON. Cut off government spending, and we cut off how these billionaires actually make money.

It is considered perfectly fine to tax property, even for people on fixed income...but our current definition of what is considered property is just real-estate... let's expand the same concept and tax all property, even non physical property like intellectual and stock options. yes it will mean that some people will have to sell some of their assets to pay the tax...but that true about normal property tax, so not really an argument against it.

Wealth taxes are ridiculous. Tax capital gains and loans against assets used as income past a fairly high threshold.

You need to tax anything put up as collateral for a loan as income. That would be a big help.

Tax their purchases. Anything and everything they buy is paid at 1000% sales tax.

Absolutely true. Income isn't how the wealthy make money. CEOs bragged about taking $1 salaries in the past, until they realized it was pointing this out! Wealthy people getting wealthier and never "realizing" it is one of the biggest cons ever.

Billionaires shouldn't exist. Dont tax them, get rid of them.

i cant believe this sub listnook still allows articles to be posted from Jacobin Common Dreams etc. Enough tankie sources.

Didn't Washington state just pass a wealth tax or am I misinformed?

To be honest, if we just had the right rules in place to ensure that money did not equal political power, I'd be perfectly happy if we taxed capital gains more and taxed the shit out of inheretence over a certain threshold. I don't have a problem with some people getting fabulously wealthy because they founded very successful companies. What I have a problem with is that some people are impovershed by the exploitative imbalance in the relationship between labor and capital, and that corporations get away with spoiling the envoriment or any of the other myriad of ways that underregulated industries do harm while reaping profits. If we could tip the scales more towards labor and properly regulate industries such that businesses could only really thrive if their activities amounted to a net benefit to society, that would be incredible, and if somehow owners of those businesses still turned out to be worth billions but couldn't use that wealth to corrupt politics, then good for them. Society can take their billions upon their death so that there isn't extreme generational wealth passing to the kids who didn't earn any of it. Let the billionaires bequeth their children with enough for multi-generational financial security, but not more than that. If we could tax extreme wealth with no unintended cosequences and under reasonable circumstances, that would be cool, but I think a lot of people don't appreciate just how crazy messy a wealth tax can be. Tax avoidance would just be nuts and we risk some extreme capital flight as well.

Just take it. Give them a choice to keep their hands, or tongues, or some type of biblical justice.

Capital gains need to be treated like income. No more special low ball taxes. Also removing the contribution caps on Social Security and Medicare.

Remove capital gains tax reduction, automatically realize gains when stocks are used as collateral

Capital gains tax the ultra wealthy

I remember the first time I saw a CEO accept a dollar a year salary and thought "how noble" We know better now.

Can we use clearer language to make these arguments please? "Ultra-elites" = The Filthy Rich.

How about anyone using their investment portfolio as leverage has to pay taxes, as if their gains are realized, for the year they use said wealth to gain more.

Just make a holiday where anyone who makes over a certain amount of wealth is fair game. Legally you can just walk up and take whatever gaudy statues or whatever they have.

Taxing wealth is a dangerous plan. Eventually the government will lower the amount of money for wealth taxes and the upper middle class who has one million in their Fidelity Brokerage Account will be taxed on the account value on January 1st of each year. They will have to sell stocks to pay the tax which will crash the stock market.