ListNook

SOHONEYSAME 2 days ago +64

> "The comments come following a report from the Financial Times (FT) on April 20 that France and Germany have separately proposed "symbolic" initial benefits for Kyiv with varying limitations on its membership. > "Documents seen by FT suggest that Berlin would push for "associate membership" for Kyiv, with no bloc voting rights and no automatic access to the shared EU budget. While Paris is reportedly advocating for a "integrated state status" for Ukraine with limitation to Kyiv's access to certain major EU financial programs. > "Our position is clear: no 'ersatz membership' — we will not accept any of them. This is a firm position," Sybiha said at a closed-door meeting with journalists attended by the Kyiv Independent.

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ash_ninetyone 2 days ago +23

I would assumed this to be a stepping stone towards membership. I can't see EU membership being given while they're a war-zone, which has help up a lot of the reforms they were doing. But this is the next best thing currently available.

23

Dionosio 2 days ago +14

Them being at war is definitly the biggest obstacle to becoming part of the EU, but even if the war ended today there would still be several other obstacles that, on their own, would stop Ukraine from joining. There are multiple requirements to join the EU, and Ukraine ia falling short on many of them. And although they *are* deserving of the chance of joining the EU, the requirements should still be satisfied, for mainly two reasons: the first, that it would not be fair towards other countries that have been trying to join the EU for years and couldn't because of said requirements, and the second and most important the fact that said requirements are there *for a reason*, and the risk is to have another Hungary-Orban situation in 10 years time if the joining is not done properly. Also the veto system needs an overhaul, but that's another matter.

14

Lurkoner 2 days ago +2

There is such a thing as "symbolic eu limbo" and Ukraine doesn't want to end there. It's better to take some years longer for both Ukraine and EU to become ready and have normally regulated relationships - because rn neither can "eat" the problems of another upon complete integration.

2

RiPPeR69420 1 day ago +1

What Ukraine is looking for with membership is to be able to activate the mutual defense clause. That doesn't mandate direct military action by all members, but all members provide aid and assistance to the best of their power. Even if that aid is only financial or humanitarian. That would open up basically the entire industrial might of the EU military-industrial complex to equip the Ukrainian military. No more limited aid, access to deep strike weapons, more ammo, and enough aircraft to gain air superiority. It gives Ukraine a path to victory in weeks/months. A half measure might get them a little more rope. But they seem to have turned the tide, so they don't need it more rope. And accepting a half measure takes the full measure off the table.

1

Dehwoly 1 day ago +1

What happened if?) EU need to be reformed, be much productive and efficient?)

1

Sea_Public_6691 2 days ago +43

The second part of their statement is important. They dont want a „pity“ membership, they want a process where they have to fullfill all requirments regarding corruptiom, democracy, economic chances

43

NecessarySudden 2 days ago +15

Yeah but to get that you supposed to read the article. People tend to throw their bias after reading headline.

15

gracklemancometh 2 days ago +69

Ukraine will get stuck in application limbo for decades - that's the best case scenario (the alternative is they don't apply at all.) They need a market economy, democracy, independent judiciary, free press, and production standards that are up to a central European standard before they can become a full member. An associate membership would allow them access to some EU benefits immediately. Those benefits would allow them to build up their nation more quickly and achieve full membership earlier. Ukraine is nowhere near ECHR standards, it has not proven it has a robust democracy, its manufactured and agricultural products are not up to EU standards. And how are they supposed to hold a referendum while a chunk of the country is occupied? Because I'm guessing they want to join with Crimea as part of the country, that means they need to hold free and fair referenda in Crimea. And that's better the external realpolitik: Poland doesn't want their farming subsidies redirected to Ukraine. France, Germany, and the Benelux don't want to have to foot the bill of reconstruction. And the EU as a whole wants Ukraine to develop internally, they don't want to see mass-emigration post-war; while they'd appreciate the c**** labour in their own economies, Ukraine won't rebuild into the member they want without a strong labour force. Associate membership unlocks EU support to meet those criteria and allay the concerns of members that they'd be too much of a drain.

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ZuAusHierDa 2 days ago +16

> Ukraine is nowhere near ECHR standards Ukraine is a member of the Council of Europe and therefore also a member of the ECHR. These institutions have nothing to do with the EU. Until recently even Russia was part of it. Btw, that’s how Navalny got out of Russian prison the first time.

16

downeverythingvote_i 2 days ago +317

While I'm sympathetic for Ukraine, I don't understand why the EU would want them. It's an economic union, not a military alliance. To be honest, inviting countries with high levels of corruption is never a good idea. Do we really want another Hungary?

317

Gloomfang_ 2 days ago +257

If they want to join the EU, they should adhere to the same rules and standards as all other member states.

257

RitualST 2 days ago +42

They are at war it's impossible for them to make sure all of the rules are followed. I really think all of those discussions should be paused until war ends.

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StudySpecial 2 days ago +75

why would discussions be paused? it's fine for them to go through some of the accession process. it was obvious from the start that full membership with all rights/obligations is at least 10-20 years off. if ukraine doesn't want to have some kind of bespoke membership that gives them some participation while that happens and want to stay fully out, that's their choice. however, i think they'll change their mind and this announcement is just public posturing.

75

Alib668 2 days ago +16

If they pass the tests they should be allowed in

16

Tricky-Interview2194 2 days ago +11

Thats why the first guy mentioned EU is not military alliance

11

ZuAusHierDa 2 days ago +5

On paper it’s also a military alliance. (But that alliance has no structure and so on)

5

Bloodsucker_ 2 days ago +11

Not enough. Even after the war it's just early. There's nothing to negotiate until Ukraine becomes a better country. I'm sure they'll do. But it's not happening in ++10 years from now.

11

rowaasr13 2 days ago -35

Entire point of "Ukraine" appearing on map is that local barons wanted to be "first in a village than second in Rome". Ukraine is feudal state and any **Ukrainian** can easily name you those well-known barons by region (feud) - feel free to ask them directly. Look up even recent Western publications how one of those barons from "oh so poor and war-starved" country easily buys himself Monaco flat for record money: [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-04-21/ukraine-s-richest-man-bought-monaco-flat-for-record-550-million](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-04-21/ukraine-s-richest-man-bought-monaco-flat-for-record-550-million) Then check from what year those guys are in power - in REAL power - they don't need to sit on any stuffy elected position - that's where they put they lackeys. Feudalism will never "become better".

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Bloodsucker_ 2 days ago +3

Qué?

3

mangalore-x_x 2 days ago +1

Being at war with territorial disputes is a no go for any organization. They also could not join NATO with that. AFAIK that is what the partial membetship offer is about. Until their dispute with Russia gets settled they cannot join however good any other regulatory alignments are. They already get credit for being in that war in how far the EU changes the process and seeks special solutions. Ukraine can decide not to want any special deals but that will make the full membership requirements apply which they are essentially disqualified for.

1

joshbaer20328 2 days ago -6

"Then Ukraine should not have the discussion... they are corrupt and only when all this will no longer take place can one begin to think about it."

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NecessarySudden 2 days ago -8

I like how you guys pretending EU countries don't have corruption, lol. You just not searching good enough

-8

DenFlyvendeFlamingo 2 days ago +13

Its not gonna be better by adding more. The EU is not in a good place right now to add another Eastern European country with a checkered democratic history. The EU should continue to support Ukraine with everything we’ve got, but we can’t mess around with the internal stability atm. Let Ukraine go through all the regular hoops for membership and give it a due process

13

NecessarySudden 2 days ago +4

Thats the reason why Ukraine refusing fast and partial membership - to meet requirements and be a regular member like other countries. Nobody in EU will accept Ukraine without that hoops. And it is better for Ukraine to go through that hoops because thats how politicians in parliament will have to adopt new norms and proceed with reforms. That's good news Ukraine refusing fast path to partial membership. Why people are mad?

4

ZuAusHierDa 2 days ago +3

Keep in mind that the 2014 invasion started because of an association agreement between the EU and Ukraine. We already have this type of agreement. I don’t know why Ukraine would be against a better one. These type of agreements wont replace the long membership route, but it would make things easier for Ukraine in the meantime.

3

NecessarySudden 2 days ago +1

Ukraine already got assurances instead of guarantees with Budapest memorandum so I would say I understand why Ukraine wants no "lite" memberships

1

ZuAusHierDa 2 days ago +2

The lite membership would only be temporary. It’s meant for the next two decades. Until Ukraine has closed all [35 chapters](https://enlargement.ec.europa.eu/enlargement-policy/conditions-membership/chapters-acquis_en). Getting into the EU is a very well defined bureaucratic process. It’s not subjective, but as objective as it can get. But it takes a lot of time - if you are not already harmonised in most chapters like for example Iceland or Norway.

2

crashtua 2 days ago +4

No, but Ukrainian politicians insists on FAST and FULL membership.

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NecessarySudden 2 days ago +4

It will be as fast as it can be for full membership. Depending on meeting requirements and made reforms.

4

crashtua 2 days ago -2

So, as Ukrainian, I can say it will never happen xD

-2

Weak-Subject9376 1 day ago +1

Like Hungary?

1

jetteauloin_2080 2 days ago +20

No the EU is not just an economic union. This was the case before 1992 in the European Economic Community but since the treaty of Maastricht and the shift towards its current form, the EU clearly includes a political dimension and since 2007, a military defensive alliance treaty.

20

nicetriangle 2 days ago +12

I get people's enthusiasm for expanding the Union, but especially with the single state veto it is asking for a lot of trouble if not done very cautiously. After being a huge obstructionist thorn in the EU's side, Hungary finally elected someone who seems to be willing to play ball. Great. But then right on the heels of that, newly added member Bulgaria just up and elected someone who certainly appears to be another Putin stooge. This kinda stuff is simply not sustainable and it sure looks like an own-goal in this case.

12

ZuAusHierDa 2 days ago +4

Thankfully we already got rid of the veto for most decisions and replaced it with [qualified majority](https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/council-eu/how-does-the-council-vote/qualified-majority/). There are no vetos anymore when it comes to regulations, trade deals, and so on. However, in areas where the EU has not really the official competence, unanimity is still required. For example in foreign and defence policy. Or health care.

4

nicetriangle 2 days ago +3

Problem is that the foreign policy and defense bit is of particular importance at the moment. And when we're talking specifically about obstructionist members colluding with one of the biggest ongoing military threats to the Union, that is a serious issue.

3

ZuAusHierDa 2 days ago +1

The question is: do we want to give the competence for these matters to the EU? Then there wouldn’t be a veto anymore.

1

nicetriangle 2 days ago +3

Arguably so. The EU if anything stands a better chance of survival moving somewhat more towards a federalization model if it hopes to survive in the belligerent multipolar world that seems to be forming right now. Otherwise it's a potential divide and conquer situation and no member state individually stands much of a chance against that.

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ZuAusHierDa 2 days ago +1

Yeah, but that’s not the current state of the EU. For example, Spain wants to make their own foreign policy. And Poland doesn’t want to give up its military in a „German“ EU.

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nicetriangle 2 days ago +1

> Yeah, but that’s not the current state of the EU. That is a given. I am clearly speaking about things that ***would be*** good for the EU.

1

Think_Discipline_90 2 days ago +11

Check the growth of new member states after joining the EU. It is significant, and while it’s not immediate it’s absolutely a long term investment that strengthens the EU. Part of the entrance is to follow anti corruption guidelines. Adding 40m to the union is huge. Helping 40m grow out of corruption is as well.

11

Softwaretester4000 2 days ago +13

I feel the same way. Don't forget that this country has more issues obviously than before the war. The country is in ruins, corruption levels are still extremely high and they have way less working age men due to deaths and the massive diaspora. The EU needs to not lie and just be blunt. But instead the EU leaders are just farming clout and aren't realistic...

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kakhaganga 2 days ago +5

How exactly do you measure corruption levels vs German putinferstehers who are on Gazprom’s payroll and close down nuclear and would do anything to suck on the big fat oil pipe? Just saying, it’s so hypocritical.

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me_ke_aloha_manuahi 2 days ago +19

Nah mate, not even the same game. Don't forget that pre-war, Ukraine was a shithole that scored even worse than f****** Belarus and Hungary in terms of corruption.

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IvD707 2 days ago -1

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption\_Perceptions\_Index](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index) I have no idea where you people get these numbers. Is it good? Nope. But it's definitely better than Belarus, Russia, or even Serbia.

-1

me_ke_aloha_manuahi 2 days ago +11

Did you miss the words "pre-war." And congrats, an existential war and a mass drive has gotten it to now below Burkina Faso. Like, don't get me wrong, I want Ukraine to win this war, but I'm not going to pretend like they are something they aren't. Like if India decided to try and annex Pakistan tomorrow, I would want Pakistan to win, but that doesn't change that Pakistan is a corrupt shithole and will still be one after the war. They aren't qualified or good enough to be in the EU, as they are right now, and it'll be a long time even if they win to get there. And they are so much more corrupt than Germany that the comment I initially responded to should be ashamed for the audacity of it.

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Hoobleton 2 days ago +1

Have a look at 2021, pre-war: https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021

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kakhaganga 2 days ago -3

Hey mate, I’ve seen both worlds pre-war and post-war. The terror of Ukrainian corruption is something corrupt politicians sucking on Russian money spread.. I am not pretending we don’t have it in Ukraine - of course we do. Your pretense that it is worse than in other countries is just hypocritical propaganda.

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me_ke_aloha_manuahi 2 days ago +3

There's nothing hypocritical or propagandistic to say that Ukraine is one of the most corrupt countries in Europe. I want you lot to win, but being honest about those things isn't mutually exclusive.

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itskelena 2 days ago +7

They don’t know what they’re talking about. Corruption perception index is a lagging indicator and doesn’t really reflect the real corruption, just a perception.

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vaxzh 2 days ago +2

Hey mate, it's spelled "Versteher" with a "v". Cool to see more German words used in English though. Have a good one and greetings! ✌️

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kakhaganga 2 days ago

Thanks! My bad, of course it is spelled with v.

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ZuAusHierDa 2 days ago +2

The prefix „ver~“ is very common in German. Vertrauen, verstehen, verbessern, verschieben, verschenken, and so on.

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rowaasr13 2 days ago +3

It's always so funny to hear than buying energy at reasonable prices is somehow "bad".

3

NimrodvanHall 2 days ago +16

The reason the EU wants Ukraine is because, at least before the war, it had enough fertile farmland to allow the EU to feed its population without needing to depend on grain imports. The reason it’s not a member yet is because the country was to corrupt an its national institutions were to weak for it to be allowed as a member. If war does anything it strengthens national institutions, you need to organise to keep the war going. If they also manage to quell the corruption, Ukraine will be an EU membership candidate the day the war ends and will probably be a member in record time.

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Zizimz 2 days ago +25

No they won't. Ukraine's most important asset, its rich farmland, is a source of major concern for some EU states. Right now, France and Poland are the main recipients of EU farming subsidies. (almost €400b for the period 2021-2027) And both countries are very defensive when it comes to their agricultural sector. Ukraine joining the EU would be an absolute game changer. Not only would they absorb the lion's share of the subsidies, their agricultural products would also be much cheaper than anything France and Poland can grow. But that's just one of the concerns. Ukraine is also lacking in many base criteria that need to be fullfilled by any member candidate. Democracy, market economy, anti-corruption measures, freedom of the press, an independent judiciary etc. There won't be any fast-tracking EU membership for Ukraine after the war.

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NimrodvanHall 2 days ago +2

I guess time will tell. The world is changing, fast. Who knows what the future brings.

2

ICEpear8472 2 days ago +3

The EU was already not dependent on grain imports. The farmland will likely be a big hinderance for them joining. Since it would mean tough competition for farmers already in the EU. Farmers which simultaneously will lose some of there EU subsidies because they also would partially shift to Ukraine. Those farmers are also the people

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BochocK 2 days ago -2

>If war does anything it strengthens national institutions, you need to organise to keep the war going. I'm curious what makes you think that, does not seem so logical to me ? I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm surprised by how affirmative you are, and asking why.

-2

philipp2310 2 days ago +14

And we should never accept a new member starting negotiations with demands..

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PanVidla 2 days ago +16

The demand is the membership. I really don't see any controversy here.

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philipp2310 2 days ago

The „we don’t want a quick partial membership first“ is the demand. The „we want full veto powers for all EU decisions“ is. Ukraine is not ready for full EU, but we want to get it there by offering a first step nobody else got in history. They decline and demand something that would hurt both sides.

0

PanVidla 2 days ago +13

But that's a normal demand that literally every other country that joined the EU made. I think that they want full membership in order to avoid a limbo where they technically are a part of the EU, but most of the advantages. A partial membership may work for strong economies that trade some of the benefits for some national sovereignity and who have low incentive to influence EU's foreign policy. Ukraine is not one of those.

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NecessarySudden 2 days ago +10

The "we don't want partial membership because we want full membership after we met requirements like any other country did" I see a lot of arrogance under this post and people pretending their countries have no corruption. But the truth is this countries didn't search good enough. Nobody will accept Ukraine to EU without meeting the requirements. And having corrupt Hungary, Slovakia or Bulgaria as excuse to not allow Ukraine into EU is "cute"

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philipp2310 2 days ago +1

It isn’t only that. Take a look at medium income, gdp per head etc. Ukraine was pre war not even half of the lowest in EU. This won’t work for a full membership without destabilizing the whole EU. Saying „we don’t want partial“ is not accelerating the full membership. It is slowing it down.

1

NecessarySudden 2 days ago +5

Every other central and eastern european countries had push in economy growth after and not before they got into EU. It's ok if Ukraine chooses longer path but full membership instead of fast and partial let it be if Ukraine meets requirements. Idk why its a problem for a people in commentaries under this news

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philipp2310 2 days ago +4

And that is what the partial membership is for. Quick economic growth with low risk for both sides. And no. Every other Eastern European had programs before the full membership as well. Even turkey was in this program and got big money out of it. Only this time EU wants to give more, like security guarantees. Ukraine declines.

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NecessarySudden 2 days ago +2

What partial memberships had Hungary or Poland? I call bullshit

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philipp2310 2 days ago +3

Didn’t they have EU candidate status as well? Edit: >> The actual process of integrating Poland into the EU began with Poland's application for membership in Athens on 8 April 1994, and then the confirmation of the application by all member states in Essen from 9–10 December 1994.

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ZuAusHierDa 2 days ago +1

You don’t *demand* membership. It’s a privilege you ask for. And every member has to agree. Some even by a referendum.

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NecessarySudden 2 days ago +4

And Ukraine is not demanding it. Ukraine just say that it will not accept any half ass membership.

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ZuAusHierDa 2 days ago -4

All the Russian aggression started in 2014 because of an association agreement between EU and Ukraine. I don’t get why they want a better one for the meantime until they have closed all [35 chapters](https://enlargement.ec.europa.eu/enlargement-policy/conditions-membership/chapters-acquis_en). It will take at least two decades.

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PanVidla 2 days ago +1

Who says in the meantime? They are just saying that it's either full membership, like every other country, or nothing. They never said that waiting until they fulfill all the requirements is not acceptable, although who wouldn't be fast-tracked into the EU?

1

ZuAusHierDa 2 days ago +1

We have already a association agreement between the EU and Ukraine. It would just be an update.

1

Character_Chain3419 2 days ago +1

Point of negotiations is for each party to get what they need. I totally understand why Ukraine would never join EU with symbolic benefits, full membership was the also the negotiation point before. War should not change that. And corruption concerns were also the bottleneck here. The no, either you commit or we won't join won't change. It is also easy to reason why based on history of Ukraine.

1

philipp2310 2 days ago

Well, and that is the reason why nothing moves anymore. Either full or nothing. No small steps towards each other. The same reason Germany has the free speed autobahn. Opponents demand 120 or even 100. nobody is able to compromise „let’s start with 160 or even 180 as almost nobody would oppose that“. No they demand 100% or nothing and they get nothing.

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Character_Chain3419 1 day ago

The lack of eu membership didn't stop EU using the territory and there were countless small steps already. It's not either or. There is no demand here, and there were countless steps already. Countless referendums. Maybe rethink what you know and don't approach this without preparing yourself. If joining EU would have been possible then the conflict might have been avoided. We all understand this. And about your opinion on demands, reserve this for Russia - now this is where the 100% all or nothing sits. Ukraine is just historically fighting for independence.

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philipp2310 1 day ago +1

And why would you reject „friends with benefits“ when you know a relationship will only be possible in a decade or so? Because what I read from the „demand“ is, we don’t want your offers now, give us the full thing asap - ignoring that there are already deep connections and treaties outside of some status that would help to deter Russia once the „special operation“ reaches day 3…

1

Character_Chain3419 1 day ago

For the same reason you won't buy any membership that doesn't get you access to the basics you need. Also historically that was the case, so there is the accumulated distrust. At this point the value of Ukraine for the EU IS the leverage. To prevent further discussion: I'm just explaining why things will go the way they do. Also mentioned the possibility of getting EU membership under those conditions years ago, that led to arguments like we have now. The people who disagreed now understand I'm not making an opinion, I'm just describing the reality of the choice from the Ukrainian perspective. It just won't happen.

0

MarkMew 2 days ago +2

As a Hungarian, IDEK. It would take decades for them to check out every box for the accession requirements yet some politicians talk about it like it's their god given right. And I think the EU should make the rule of law requirements significantly stricter - to avoid having another Orbanistan. Without these, it wouldn't benefit either neither the EU nor the people of Ukraine, just like our EU funds went straight into Orbán's cronies' pockets.

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GoldenMTG 2 days ago +2

They are the breadbasket of europe. Probably a good idea to have them in the EU.

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08TangoDown08 2 days ago +2

Firstly, Ukraine isn't as brutally corrupt as people pretend. It's corrupt, but on the corruption perceptions index it's somewhere in the middle, not too far away from Croatia which is an EU country. Or Hungary. The problem with Hungary isn't just general corruption, it's Russian influence that is leveraging that corruption to damage the EU from within. Ukraine would be much more resistant to Russian influence for obvious reasons. Also, the EU isn't likely to remain just an economic union, in my opinion. It's already more than that, it's a political union. I also don't think there's any suggestion that the EU would admit Ukraine unless they improve their corruption problem.

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BiggieBigs34 2 days ago +1

Ehhh, the EU is an “economic union”, **now** however, having a standardized currency, and a system in place to pool funding across the board makes it that much easier to turn it into a defensive alliance where, there’s a standing collaborative army. If I were European, that’s what I’d want ASAP

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InformationNew66 1 day ago +1

It's easy: c**** labour, access to land (fertile) and resources (minerals). Ukraine has and had much higher level of corruption than Hungary.

1

Old_Leshen 2 days ago

Keeping the war aspect aside, you are right. Most Ukrainians here in Germany are still on benefits. That's 4 years after the war started. They haven't bothered learning the language and getting a job and contributing to the society. If Ukraine joins the EU, it's gonna be much worse. Germany, France and Sweden are going to get flooded with them.

0

crashtua 2 days ago -1

Hehe, you compared Ukraine with Hungary, how dare you. Ukraine is much more powerful in its corruption than any other country in european part of continent xD. So Ukraine is like 4-6 Hungaries.

-1

Chemical_Wrongdoer43 1 day ago +1

Long time ago EU only was a economic union. https://www.europarl.europa.eu/meetdocs/2009_2014/documents/sede/dv/sede200612mutualdefsolidarityclauses_/sede200612mutualdefsolidarityclauses_en.pdf

1

-_GIZMO_ 2 days ago +46

Well then they Gon be waiting for 10 years if not more after the war ends. There are very good reasons for both sides (ukr and eu) that they first need to do the pre requisites in order to join. Is this "no we wont accept lite membership for now" a move for local politics? The politicians themselves do know that they ain't getting full membership anytime soon for good reasons..right?

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Zizimz 2 days ago +15

10 years? I think you're overly optimistic. Apart from recovering from the war, which in itself will be a difficult task, they need to transform into a democracy (they have never been one before), fight rampant corruption (one of the worst in Europe), disempower the oligarchs, secure the independence of the judiciary and build up a market economy from scratch. Ukraine is never going to be accepted by all memberstates if they don't meet the base criteria.

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Ethesen 2 days ago +12

Poland joined the EU 15 years after overthrowing the communists. I think that 10 years after the war ends is optimistic, but it could happen.

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SkinnyFatSoldier 2 days ago +6

In what sense is Ukraine not a democracy? Sure they have a lot of corruption, but power has continued to change hands through democratic processes. Unlike Russia, where it’s still Putin running everything for 30+ years.

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Zizimz 2 days ago +2

Ukraine was categorized as a hybrid regime before the war. Basically, the people get to decide which of the oligarchs' favorites is going to lead the country in the next term. Neither the selection process, nor the campaigning, media coverage or the election itself have ever been fair and balanced. Corruption and intimidation were common practice on all levels. And if the oligarchs don't like what the president is doing, they are instructing the members of Ukraine's highest court to invalidate the policy. That's exactly what happened during the first months of Zelensky's term. He had tried to adopt new anti-corruption measures, which were promptly declared void by the courts. It's quite simple. A country which, before the war, ranked among the lowest in Europe in terms of corruption, press freedom and civil liberties can't possibly be a functioning democracy.

2

SkinnyFatSoldier 2 days ago +2

I’m not arguing the corruption angle, but clearly power was never consolidated and free and fair elections took place on a federal and more local levels. By those standards, most countries that we consider democracies would no longer be considered as such

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PrankOG 2 days ago -2

No i think what they is to enter now with full membership

-2

O-o--O---o----O 2 days ago +19

Let's be real here, as much as i support Ukraines effort against russias war, they are in absolutely no position to even come close to joining the EU, and they won't be for many, many years even if the war is over. They have to meet a lot of milestones first. Have a look at Turkey and tell me you are fit to join: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Turkey_to_the_European_Union

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Several-Zombies6547 2 days ago +11

To be fair, Ukraine is more democratic and has a way better human rights record than Turkey, although that's a very low bar to meet.

11

Boys4Ever 2 days ago +3

What’s the point of having NATO if you won’t accept another because they are actively being attacked. The whole point of NATO is to deter attacks. What better way than accepting Ukraine as they did two others since this war started? Cowards look the other way when titans at their door.

3

ZuAusHierDa 2 days ago +1

What’s going on with these random German words being used? Is „Ersatz“ in the English language on the same level as e.g. „Zeitgeist“?

1

User5281 2 days ago +3

Yes, ersatz has been used in English to mean an inferior substitute for a very long time.

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ZuAusHierDa 2 days ago +1

Huh? Where does the inferior part come from? It’s completely neutral in German.

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User5281 2 days ago +2

That’s the implication when used in English and the clear implication in the headline. I think it’s because it entered into wider use in the English language around 100 years ago during wartime when the substitutes were often subpar.

2

ZuAusHierDa 2 days ago +1

I mean, it’s probably fair to take a word from another language and change its meaning. German also does it especially with English words. - Handy means mobile phone ;) - public viewing means public screening - home office means working from home and so on.

1

rudolf_waldheim 2 days ago +1

That might come from Yiddish and the fact that Kashrut requires to use "Ersatz" products instead of the original one which often are a compromise and/or of lower quality or enjoyment level. The most prominent example is margarine for butter.

1

Xenon009 2 days ago +6

Not the same level, but it does exist as a niche word

6

0nlinepseudonym 2 days ago -8

Well then be prepared to get nothing.

-8

No-Cryptographer7494 2 days ago -20

like the empty promises they already received? shows how little you know

-20

ICEpear8472 2 days ago +11

The EU currently has a problem with the veto rights. Every additional member with those rights will add to that problem so adding Ukraine or anyone else in the mix is already problematic. Additionally adding new EU members is also a decision which requires unanimous support of all 27 EU member countries. Given Ukraines size and economical situation them joining the EU would mean a lot of the EU budget would shift to them turning many existing net recipients into net payers and existing net payers into even bigger ones. Also Ukraines already existing limited access to the EUs single market already caused protests multiple times for example by farmers which now have to compete more directly with Ukraines massive agricultural industry. That is somewhat of a tough sell for some EU members countries governments and parliaments which will have to convince their electorate that letting Ukraine join is a good idea. Overall them accepting nothing but a full membership has the potential that they get stuck in the member candidate limbo for a long time. Convincing 27 existing members to vote for Ukraines ascension to the EU especially in light of the existing problems will be difficult especially if one is not willing to accept any compromises.

11

Afraid-Leg-174 2 days ago +9

Don’t forget that the farmers in the EU are upset about the Ukrainian farms access to the market is that the Ukrainian farmers can still use band agricultural chemicals and pesticides and don’t follow the agricultural regulations to sell in the EU market

9

JackOfLights 2 days ago +2

I read treads like this and begin to understand Euroscepticism. Such entitled, petty leeches

2

Univeralise 2 days ago -3

Realistically, it’s not going to happen anytime soon. Ukraine is one of the most corrupt countries in Europe.

-3

workingtheories 2 days ago -6

they need to be working on getting a nuke again, not some crummy eu membership that would be symbolic without a nuke

-6

TeamPach 2 days ago -55

The entitlement of those people is insane. Cut them off now.

-55

No-Cryptographer7494 2 days ago +8

what entitlement? without proper membership it will just repeat. but people like you already made up your mind and are trying to convince others to be as dumb as you.

8

OverSoft 2 days ago +5

It? What’s “it”? The EU is an economic participation, not a military one. If they want military cooperation, join NATO. If they want economic participation, be prepared to fully fit in the requirements. Before the war, Ukraine had the highest corruption index of al European countries. Fix that first before joining, because that’s literally a requirement of joining the EU.

5

MediumMachineGun 2 days ago +17

The EU has gone beyond a mere economic alliance decades ago. Nobody would argue that its an economic alliance ever since the Maastricht treaty. The EU is both an economic and an political alliance.

17

Top_Investigator6261 2 days ago +11

The EU has the same mutual defense clause in the treaty as NATO’s Article 5. The US now acts hostile to its NATO’s allies, makes unreasonable demands and threatens to leave.

11

ZuAusHierDa 2 days ago -1

Only on paper. NATO has military infrastructure, rules, an integrated command structure, and so on. The EU has non of that.

-1

TeamPach 2 days ago +1

It takes decades for most countries to join the EU. Ukraine doesn't meat the requirement.

1

No-Cryptographer7494 2 days ago +3

Doesn't meat? They need to join as soon as the war pauzes or gets stopped. Make hard rules and a set timeline for the changes they still need to make but let them do that as a member. We can't have them in lingo for 10-20 years. Anything other then that and you are just helping russia.

3

[deleted] 2 days ago -59

[deleted]

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Brief_Hospital_1766 2 days ago +56

Brother, I mean this in the politest way possible, but you've not the foggiest idea how the EU budget works. You're correct Ukraine will need massive investment, but that doesn't mean they'll drain the coffers dry. Creating wealth is not a zero sum game.

56

daguerrotype_type 2 days ago +1

Yeah, but he's right about people leaving the country. All the refugees that are currently in the UE probably won't go back. If you open the borders of a war-torn country a lot of people will also leave. There are a lot of people who lost their home, they'll have nothing to stay for in Ukraine. Tldr: the country would be basically empty.

1

Think_Discipline_90 2 days ago +9

That is such a weird thing to say. Would you leave your home? Every Ukrainian I’ve spoken to just wants to go back when there’s peace. I swear people are so weird online.

9

daguerrotype_type 2 days ago -1

>That is such a weird thing to say. I don't know where you're from but I can tell 100% you are not from a European ex-communist country. 100%. Or this wouldn't seem weird at all. > Would you leave your home? Dude, a quarter of my country (Romania) left. No wars, no destroyed infrastructure. Just a shitty economy and easy access to the western labor market. A quarter. Up and left. Those are people with intact homes in the country. See how "leaving your home" is not a weird thing to say at all here? Probably EU accession would mean many people would've left Ukraine regardless. But without a home to look back to, that would accelerate everything. I just want to say I .hold absolutely no grudge against people who wouldn't go back to Ukraine or who would leave it. It's just that it would suck for Ukraine to be in that situation. Rebuild the country with whom?

-1

ZuAusHierDa 2 days ago

[Nearly half of the Ukrainian refugees in Germany want to stay in Germany](https://www.mdr.de/nachrichten/deutschland/panorama/ukraine-gefluechtete-fluechtlinge-rueckkehr-arbeit-frieden-100.html).

0

Brief_Hospital_1766 2 days ago +2

Their country is being bombed? I dunno, but if you give me the choice of living somewhere that's getting bombed every day, or one that is not, hmmm...actually the decision's more difficult than I thought!

2

ZuAusHierDa 2 days ago +1

Understandable. But the other user has claimed nonsense.

1

Ezergill 2 days ago +8

The borders are restricted from the Ukrainian side, for women, children and elderly the borders are already open, the visa-free travel agreement with EU countries has been in effect since 2017, joining the EU would change nothing on that front.

8

ZuAusHierDa 2 days ago +1

Visa free travel is limited to up to 6 months. (Then there are additional emergency rules for the current situation). We don’t have freedom of movement with Ukraine.

1

tiradium 2 days ago +1

So will these women elderly or children contribute have a job lined up as well? Oh and visa free does not mean you have the authorization to work.

1

[deleted] 2 days ago -42

[deleted]

-42

reflect25 2 days ago +17

greece and italy were problems with overinvestment. they spent billions on infrastructure and/or buildings/companies that weren't needed. for ukraine you don't have this problem. it is very obvious what to invest in. rebuilding old and destroyed infrastructure.

17

xtothewhy 2 days ago +2

Overinvestment was not the problem with Greece. It was that their income was vastly inflated and they refused to collect taxes and they had misrepresented their income to gain entry into the EU. The EU had to come to terms with that after the fact and that is part of the reason why Greece had such harsh austerity.

2

reflect25 2 days ago +3

I mean we can call it bad loans or xyz but the point is that they took on loans that they couldn’t repay. And that a lot of the money was not spent on useful stuff For Ukraine the money spent on say repairing a power plant or destroyed freeway had a very obvious benefit to their economy. This all is very low hanging fruit and is not the same as Greece at all

3

xtothewhy 2 days ago

I did not comment on Ukraine or Italy in my comment, and understandably in a post about Ukraine's membership that could be an issue for some. Was only responding to your commenting on Greece.

0

reflect25 2 days ago +3

I mean we are talking about Ukraine because that is literally what this entire thread and comment thread is about….

3

xtothewhy 2 days ago -1

>I mean we are talking about Ukraine because that is literally what this entire thread and comment thread is about…. "and understandably in a post about Ukraine's membership that could be an issue for some" Which I specifically mentioned in the post you're responding to. And previously you made a comment as your first sentence comparing it to Greece and Italy. And I disagreed and why I did so. If I knew more about Italy's situation regarding EU membership and why that is overinvestment has been an issue there I would comment further. For Ukraine, it is different. Ultimately they are not a part of the EU yet. And while the EU still has problems it finally seems to have woken to what's up with Putin and that Angela Merkel and others were far too soft on Russia. So now, with all the threats more of Europe has begun to step up. Late to the situation but better than not doing so. Ukraine is gearing up because it has to and has been left to deal with Russia and Putin's greed. "Ukraine has made EU membership a key element of its long-term security strategy and has raised the issue in discussions about a potential peace settlement. In late February, Zelensky urged partners to set a specific date for Ukraine's EU accession, warning that Russia would otherwise hinder the process." They deserve to be angry and still the European Union has rules about joining. And somehow they both have to come together for all of them to work it out because it is the best for Ukraine to be a part of the European Union and for the European Union to have Ukraine a part of it.

-1

reflect25 2 days ago +3

I suggest you go back up and read what the comment chain was talking about. \> Look I am all for supporting them but if they become a full member of EU it will be the end of the union as we know it. They will drain the EU dry not because they are evil but because Russia destroyed a lot of their infrastructure and leveled cities to the ground. \>> Brother, I mean this in the politest way possible, but you've not the foggiest idea how the EU budget works. You're correct Ukraine will need massive investment, but that doesn't mean they'll drain the coffers dry....Creating wealth is not a zero sum game. \> I do have a pretty good idea so not sure what you mean. Just look at the past problems with Greece and Italy People are debating about 1) how much money will need to be invested into ukraine and secondly 2) if the money invested can recoup it's investment \> Overinvestment was not the problem with Greece... It was that their income was vastly inflated and they refused to collect taxes and they had misrepresented their income to gain entry into the EU I'm honestly not sure why you would say greece did not have overinvestment. the series of bad loans was infamous to the point of almost breaking the euro. to pretend they didn't happen is absurd. aka the 2004 olympic etc.. anyways more on the actual point, when spending say 1 or 2 billion dollars in ukraine it will not be hard to something that makes sense to fix. aka fixing a powerplant or freeway that will help ukraine both for everyday use and economically for moving goods.

3

FlygandeSjuk 2 days ago +21

From a Swedish perspective, it looks like this: Germany is essentially trying to leech off our electricity grid because they closed their nuclear plants and underfunded alternatives. Eastern Europe receives significant economic support, and Southern Europe struggles to maintain balanced and stable economies. Still, it is worth paying for, together we are strong.

21

Formal_Self_2221 2 days ago +3

There are basically 2 points of a membership if we ignore preventing both wars and acting against each other’s interests. 1. Scaling, instead of being limited to your resources and your economy you have access to a wider economy for trade/capital/production pipelines. 2. Making up for deficits. It goes without saying some countries have their strong points and economically it is beneficial to depend on some of them like for the fresh produce food supply in spain. Sometimes economies struggle either due to their own decisions or world events, so it balances out their losses and keeps them stable, etc.

3

O-o--O---o----O 2 days ago

>Germany is essentially trying to leech off our electricity grid because they closed their nuclear plants and underfunded alternatives. Could you explain how that is supposed to work? Either you have excess electricity to SELL to someone, or you don't.

0

FlygandeSjuk 2 days ago +3

Because the German grid is "clogged," they often use the Nordic grid (specifically Sweden’s) as a transit route to move power around. This puts stress on the Nordic system and, more importantly, because Germany treats itself as one single price zone (unlike Sweden, which is split into four zones), it masks these internal costs and exports the price pressure to its neighbors Large-state coercion at its most blatant.

3

O-o--O---o----O 2 days ago +3

Makes sense, thanks for explaining.

3

Findas88 2 days ago +11

Has World War 2 and the Marshal Plan taught you nothing? Building up an economy is also beneficial to other economies. It is not like we are shooting the money into the sun. Also when the economy in Ukraine picks up people have disposable income quicker and become a market to sell goods to.

11

choppytehbear1337 2 days ago +3

Why not invest in the country in exchange for the most experienced army in Europe?

3

OverSoft 2 days ago +1

Greece has paid back all of it’s loans, with interest, faster than the expected timeline. Italy is still a net contributor to the EU. What the f*** are you talking about?

1

Brief_Hospital_1766 2 days ago +1

Ukraine is nothing like Greece. You have no idea what you're on about. Probably best to sit this one out.

1

Gammelpreiss 2 days ago

i mean lets be real, a lot of that money will flow back to european companies. but the real issues are corruption and overall afherence to european laws and rules, so many criteria have to be checked before Ukraine is ready and another hypernationalist eastern country like poland or hungary may cause real issues

0

FlygandeSjuk 2 days ago +8

> hypernationalist eastern country like poland or hungary may cause real issues Ukraine has no far-right party in their parliament. Your narrative is flawed and ignorant.

8

Cold-Establishment-7 2 days ago -2

Didnt they just recently deny marriage for gay people? Pretty far right if you ask me, party or not.

-2

cougarlt 2 days ago +9

Is gay marriage the deciding factor if a country is far right or not? Oh come on now…

9

Ezergill 2 days ago +6

There is no way to legalize gay marriage in Ukraine during the war, as marriage is defined in the Constitution as a union of a man and a woman, it can only be amended after the martial law is lifted. However, there are discussions on installing parallel lawful civil unions for same-sex couples.

6

Cold-Establishment-7 2 days ago +2

fair enough when it comes to the war thing, i guess it wouldn't be great to destabilize the people by fiddling with big laws. i mean hey as long as the civil unions have the same administrative rights as marriage gives, who cares what it's called

2

ComeOnIWantUsername 2 days ago -1

And this, kids, is how you water down "far right" to call it everything you don't like.

-1

Cold-Establishment-7 2 days ago -1

far right is usually extremely conservative or traditional, and those don't really follow basic rules of humanity and freedom, so there you go.

-1

ComeOnIWantUsername 2 days ago +2

\> extremely conservative or traditional This is conservative, not far right.

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ComeOnIWantUsername 2 days ago +1

\> and another hypernationalist eastern country like poland You know that our anti-EU gov is out for 2.5 years now?

1

auroriasolaris 2 days ago -6

I can sympathize with Ukraine but being so picky and demanding while being one of most corrupted countries in Europe will lead them to nowhere. Probably they will sit in EU candidate purgatory for 20 years.

-6

instatencho 2 days ago -62

Ukraine only wants and wants, and wants. They will be the new israel with a victim card.

-62

Seitanic_Cultist 2 days ago +23

They want to be able to defend themselves from Russian agression, and to be able to rebuild after the damage the Russians have caused. Fair enough tbh.

23

autoreaction 2 days ago -13

And what has the EU to do with it? I mean they have the right to defend themselves, russian aggression is in the wrong, I´m all for helping them out with weapons and so on. That still doesnt mean that they just can join the EU because they have problems.

-13

Seitanic_Cultist 2 days ago +2

I was replying to the guy painting Ukraine as greedy just for wanting to survive. EU membership will have to be considered and weighed by people that know more about it than I do.

2

Electrifying2017 2 days ago -15

Ukraine has oil, so this will be beneficial for their side.

-15

suaveElAgave 2 days ago

Unless they modify their political system of representation, improve transparency and accountability, and ensure necessary steps to tackle the rampant corruption that currently suffers, allowing Ukraine to enter the EU is not only a huge mistake, but a security risk also.

0

sboxtf999 2 days ago -7

Wearing out our welcome, aren’t we? Typical corrupt nations. You give them a finger, they’ll take your arm.

-7

disp0ss3ss3d 2 days ago -2

Ukraine won’t have an economy members judge as meeting entry standards by the majority of states’ standards until…what…never. Yeah, never. Ukraine lives on a life support machine plugged into Europe.

-2

AdApprehensive5643 2 days ago -8

Could some explain to me how the greece crisis and ukraine crisis are different? Here is how I see it with my little knowledge. Both seems to require a vast amount of money to recouperate that will be collected across the eu members. I would say that a symbolic joining of ukraine makes sense because of the situation they are in. Also profit of Eu facilities. The problem is having automatic access to everyrhing even tho they did not fill the requirements before war. Also I feel a smal sense of entitlement where they just refuse a partial join while they being assaulted by russia. Imagine you need all the help you can get and refuse something like that cause you want to be completly in the "gang" I am open to change my mind but currently this is how I see it

-8

NecessarySudden 2 days ago +5

They refuse partial membership to comply all of the procedure requirements and avoid it being partial forever.

5

GroundZeroMstrNDR 2 days ago

You can't compare greece to ukraine, while greece has it's flaws it's a highly developed country with functional infrastructure and only "moderate" corruption wheres large parts of ukraine a SEVERELY underdeveloped, have very bad infrastructure, are VERY corrupt and now are also war torn. They also have 4 times more inhabitants as greece while their GDP per capita is more than 4 times lower. I'm all for supporting them, helping them rebuild and also promoting a path to EU accession but when you compare them to countries like Montenegro, Albania or even Bosnia it would be insulting to have those countries on very long and tedious accession processes and simultaneously take Ukraine immediately, while all those countries are significantly more developed

0

Eigetsu 2 days ago -2

If they act like everybody owe them even though it's other way around, imagine what they gonna do once they get in.

-2

StrangeBible 2 days ago -9

Ukraine must not see the European Union even through a telescope.

-9

'We will not accept any ersatz membership' — Ukraine's FM rejects anything short of full EU membership amid reports of 'symbolic' benefits

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