ListNook

Hi all, Today we’re posting updates to our [User Agreement](https://listnook.com/help/useragreement) and [Privacy Policy](https://listnook.com/help/privacypolicy) that will become effective June 8, 2018. For those of you that don’t know me, I’m one of the original engineers of Listnook, [left](https://www.listnook.com/r/blog/comments/dzl1o/and_like_that_poof_hes_gone/) and then returned in 2016 $as was the style of the time$, and am currently CTO. As a [very, very early listnookor](https://i.listnookmedia.com/Dhv5G_cwJajjHR7je79YL1POdrGa9h0OBd6KDK9X0X8.png?fit=crop&crop=faces%2Centropy&arh=2&w=640&s=95a3befe0c3af1eaae3681fe39cec348), I know the importance of these issues to the community, so I’ve been working with our Legal team on ensuring that we think about privacy and security in a technical way and continue to make progress $and are [transparent](https://www.listnook.com/r/announcements/comments/8bb85p/listnooks_2017_transparency_report_and_suspect/) with all of you$ in how we think about these issues. To summarize the changes and help explain the “why now?”: * **Updated for changes to our services.** It’s [been a long time](https://www.listnook.com/r/announcements/comments/2sk8i9/were_updating_the_listnook_privacy_policy_and_user/) since [our last significant User Agreement update](https://www.listnookstatic.com/policy-changes/useragreement-2015-01-15.html). In general, \*these\* revisions are to bring the terms up to date and to reflect changes in the services we offer. For example, some of the products mentioned in the terms we’re replacing are no longer available $RIP listnookmade and listnook.tv$, we’ve created a more [robust API process](https://github.com/listnook-archive/listnook/wiki/API), and we’ve launched [some](https://www.listnook.com/r/announcements/comments/4p5dm9/image_hosting_on_listnook/) [new](https://www.listnook.com/r/announcements/comments/891stx/starting_today_more_people_will_have_access_to/) [features](https://www.listnook.com/r/announcements/comments/7spq3s/protect_your_account_with_twofactor_authentication/)! * **European data protection law.** Many of the changes to the Privacy Policy relate to the General Data Protection Regulation $GDPR$. You might have heard about GDPR from such emails as “Updates to our Privacy Policy” and “Reminder: Important update to our Terms of Service & Privacy Policy.” In fact, you might have noticed that just about everything you’ve ever signed up for is sending these sorts of notices. We added information about the rights of users in the European Economic Area under the new law, the legal bases for our processing data from those users, and contact details for our legal representative in Europe. * **Clarity.** While these docs are longer, our terms and privacy policy do not give us any new rights to use your data; we are just trying to be more clear so that you understand your rights and obligations of using our products and services. We rearranged both documents so that similar topics are in the same section or in closer proximity to each other. Some of the sections are more concise $like the Copyright, DMCA & Takedown section in the User Agreement$, although there has been no change to the applicable laws or our takedown policies. Some of the sections are more specific. For example, the new Things You Cannot Do section has most of the same terms as before that were in various places in the previous User Agreement. Finally, we removed some repetitive items with our content policy $e.g., “don’t mess with Listnook” in the user agreement is the same as our prohibition on “Breaking Listnook” in the content policy$. Our work won’t stop at new terms and policies. As CTO now and an infrastructure engineer in the past, I’ve been focused on ensuring our platform can scale and we are appropriately staffed to handle these gnarly issues and in particular, privacy and security. Over the last few years, we’ve built a [dedicated anti\-evil team](https://www.listnook.com/r/announcements/comments/6qptzw/with_so_much_going_on_in_the_world_i_thought_id/) to focus on creating engineering solutions to help curb spam and abuse. This year, we’re working on building out our dedicated security team to ensure we’re equipped to handle and can assess threats in all forms. We appreciate the work you all have done to [responsibly report security vulnerabilities](https://www.listnook.com/wiki/whitehat) as you find them. **Note**: Given that there's a lot to look over in these two updates, we've decided to push the date they take effect to June 8, 2018, so you all have two full weeks to review. And again, just to be clear, there are no actual product changes or technical changes on our end. I know it can be [difficult to stay on top of](https://www.listnook.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/8hm7ak/this_visualized_design_shows_you_its_impossible/) all of these Terms of Service updates [$and what they mean for you$](https://www.listnook.com/r/LifeProTips/comments/8euz34/lpt_with_new_privacy_regulations_coming_soon_and/), so we’ll be sticking around to answer questions in the comments. I’m not a lawyer $though I can sense their presence for the sake of this thread...$ so just remember we can’t give legal advice or interpretations. **Edit:** Stepping away for a bit, though I'll be checking in over the course of the day.

198 Comments

GaryLLLL May 25, 2018 +1251

Today we're reading about a lot of companies pulling their web presence from the EU, presumably because of their inability or unwillingness to comply with the GDPR. Did Listnook have any sort of issues getting into compliance in the EU? I'm assuming Listnook's still up and running on that side of the pond.

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KeyserSosa May 25, 2018 +1228

We've been working on this for a while now. So far no real issues other than it forced us to go through and very carefully document our data practices and backend infrastructure (which is honestly _also_ good from a security/defense standpoint).

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xSaviorself May 25, 2018 +303

How does the new EU data laws affect users outside the EU? I would assume you aren't under any obligation to apply EU data laws to other citizens, but does it not make sense to treat all data sources the same? Is our data being treated differently because we don't fall under those laws, or is Listnook planning on treating data from all users equally?

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KeyserSosa May 25, 2018 +330

Many of the rights that we’re calling out for European users are already available to everyone. For example, on the [help center](https://www.listnookhelp.com/en/categories/using-listnook/your-listnook-account/accessing-your-listnook-data) we have information about the different places you can go in the product to find data we have about you. As a technical matter, we protect the data we receive from everyone the same way we protect data from Europeans. The GDPR creates some legal obligations around the formal response process, so for now we’re limiting our response to formal requests to people in the EEA. When we have a self-serve tool to grab all your data this won’t matter as much (see my response [here](https://www.listnook.com/r/announcements/comments/8m2yr4/were_updating_our_user_agreement_and_privacy/dzkisnz/?context=3))

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marvin May 25, 2018 +15

Second NicholasCajun's question. Looking forward to such a tool for getting all my comments, or the "download all your data" tool you're working on, since I've been a listnook user for 12 years and would love to do some analytics on my usage history. I guess I could send in a formal request since I'm in the EEA, but I'd rather do it through a more streamlined process. (I work in banking, compliance requests can be a PITA). No rush, but would love to hear a timeframe on this :)

Quetzacoatl85 May 25, 2018 +13

Out of interest—does any kind of timeline exist for the "data take out" functionality? Looking forward to seeing what you guys have on file about me! :)

xSaviorself May 25, 2018 +6

Thanks for your reply, your links were very helpful in ascertaining what information is available publicly and privately through my profile settings. Surely though that can't be all data you collect and store? Can you tell me about what Listnook does with previously logged IP addresses beyond the 10 displayed in account activity, as well as other assorted information tied to that service? I assume this data is overwritten each time a new IP address is logged? I also noted that Listnook checks the "allow listnook to log my outbound clicks for personalization" option by default, however there is no way to retrieve this log without getting a court order or subpoena? What does "pesonalization" entail exactly, and why does it not have an explanation like some of the other options do? Sorry for all the questions!

blambear23 May 25, 2018 +21

Would be a real pain in the butt to have a system to treat accounts differently from a technical standpoint, there's also the fact it's impossible to tell with enough accuracy which accounts would fall under EU laws and which wouldn't. Plus I doubt non-EU citizens would be happy that their data wasn't treated as carefully.

[deleted] May 25, 2018 +54

[deleted]

I_POTATO_PEOPLE May 25, 2018 +12

> Today we're reading about a lot of companies pulling their web presence from the EU Today a lot of companies revealed that they are not willing to give you access to your own personal data. Really makes me wonder whether I should have been using them in the first place.

happyscrappy May 25, 2018 +884

" This may include your IP address, user-agent string, browser type, operating system, referral URLs, device information (e.g., device IDs), pages visited, links clicked, the requested URL, hardware settings, and search terms." Would it kill you to just not bulk-list every item you could get in trouble for? Would it kill you to simply stop collecting the things you don't really need (like device IDs, hardware settings)? The GDPR is supposed to protect our data. Instead it's just causing companies like listnook to just put a message in authorizing themselves to take the largest list of regulated items they can possibly think of. What do you need my hardware settings for?

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KeyserSosa May 25, 2018 +675

> Would it kill you to just not bulk-list every item you could get in trouble for? This is also easier said than done. Generally the philosophy in software engineering leans towards "log everything" not because of a need to collect user data (we don't have much) but because it might be useful later in debugging an issue and storage is c****. Honestly, part of the process is that we think through what data we collect and whether we need it. What makes matters more complicated here is that there are many, many datastores that don't even really support deletion (most logging systems are built as "append only" with the idea being if you're logging it, you probably had a reason for it). > What do you need my hardware settings for? Let me give two hypothetical examples: * you're running android, on a not-too-common phone variant (or one that never came up in testing) that causes an app to crash 100% of the time. * you're running a browser on a desktop. Or at least you claim to be. All the server sees is a bunch of requests and responses. How do you (as a developer) determine that the browser is a real browser and not something headless like phantomjs that is pretending to be a browser? Well one approach is to challenge it in JS and see if it responds in a way you expect (like "does it have a hardware config that is sane"). This isn't hard to side step but it's another barrier to defending against dumb bot writers. And again, to be clear here, I'm not suggesting that all data collection is warranted or necessary. Like I said, one of the advantages of GDPR is that it's made us inspect our collection and retention practices, document everything, and ensure that we're compliant.

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timawesomeness May 25, 2018 +162

> and issue > and app Ooh, an admin who makes the same an/and mistake that I constantly do

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[deleted] May 25, 2018 +224

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Deimorz May 25, 2018 +77

It's also my understanding that things like "by continuing to use the site, you agree to these terms" are no longer sufficient, [and they're sending that out in their notification](https://i.imgur.com/zfw2MKJ.png). Also, the registration process still has "By signing up, you agree to our Terms and that you have read our Privacy Policy and Content Policy", which doesn't count as consent either. Even pre-checked checkboxes aren't valid any more, never mind not attaching an interface element to it at all.

PanickedPoodle May 25, 2018 +52

I wondered the same thing. This wouldn't be considered compliance where I work.

lolihull May 25, 2018 +32

Same where I work - we were only allowed to continue to collect data where we had a lawful reason to. We couldn't just collect it because it might be useful one day. We used to collect address info for example, which would be useful if in the future we wanted to do a maildrop to our customers. But we've never done one before and have no plans to now so this is no longer something we collect as standard.

I_am_the_inchworm May 26, 2018 +3

There are two important distinctions: * Personal data which is (or can be arguedto be) necessary for the service to function as it is meant to. * Personal data which is gathered for use outside the core functionality of the service. Hardware specs etc may seem like it's excessive but it's perfectly reasonable to collect it as part of, for instance, the development of the site and the Listnook apps. IP may similarly seem excessive but a core feature of the site is *being available* and as a part of that IP logging *must* be done as a defensive measure. They also have legal obligations which merit the collection of IPs. ---- What they **cannot** do is say I don't get to use Listnook if I don't agree to them *sharing* this data with third parties (unless they are law enforcement etc.) Sharing data like that is not a core functionality of Listnook. It's a profit strategy and that's it. They're free to try, but as per the GDPR it's illegal. Finally. ----- I want to remind everyone of this one really cool thing. **GDPR makes click-bait all but obsolete**

Quetzacoatl85 May 25, 2018 +155

Thanks for this answer. I think *this* is what GDPR will be actually helpful with; for so long in most of IT, the notion has been "eh, if the info is coming in, why not log it, maybe we'll need it later". Practical, but actually also very very dangerous. If this practice is being reviewed now, and people start thinking about *what* actually needs to be saved and *why* (and are also building in a delete functionality), then I'm already happy.

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happyscrappy May 26, 2018 +25

> This is also easier said than done. Generally the philosophy in software engineering leans towards "log everything" not because of a need to collect user data (we don't have much) but because it might be useful later in debugging an issue and storage is c****. And the idea of the GDPR is to change things. To make developers do the things they saw as too hard to do without prompting. You'll have to get over "log everything". Would you accept "log everything" from the TSA? That scanning machine (millimeter wave radar) that no longer displays that has n*** pictures of you but no longer displays it on the picture on the screen next to it. Would you be okay with it if it instead just saved all those images for later? These are people you are talking about, they have rights. The idea is that companies have to change to respect people. > How do you (as a developer) determine that the browser is a real browser and not something headless like phantomjs that is pretending to be a browser? Well one approach is to challenge it in JS and see if it responds in a way you expect (like "does it have a hardware config that is sane"). This isn't hard to side step but it's another barrier to defending against dumb bot writers. As even you indicate, that's useless. There is no way for a remote machine to prove it is hardware. At the edge case it could simply be a virtual machine. Even it doesn't know it isn't real. > Like I said, one of the advantages of GDPR is that it's made us inspect our collection and retention practices, document everything, and ensure that we're compliant. It's useless if there is no actual engineering other than making sure you gave a big enough list to the lawyers. It changed nothing. It's no more than that last European effort which was supposed to reduce cookie usage but instead sites (surely such as your own) just put up a banner at the top saying "we use cookies, leave if you don't like it".

LaughLax May 25, 2018 +44

> there are many, many datastores that don't even really support deletion (most logging systems are built as "append only" with the idea being if you're logging it, you probably had a reason for it). Wouldn't this likely clash with the "right to be forgotten?"

reostra May 25, 2018 +42

> hardware settings Everything else on the list sounds like something that's just part of making a web request (browser type and OS are typically part of the user-agent string, for instance, and device ID is sometimes wrapped up in this as well). But hardware settings seemed really strange. How would they even *get* those settings? Then it occurred to me: Screen Resolution. Technically, that's a hardware setting (and if lawyers love anything it's technicalities) and I can see that, if not being reported directly, then still showing up (e.g. certain stylesheets are only requested for certain resolutions).

archiminos May 26, 2018 +9

Kinda surprised by people’s reactions to this list. As a server developer there is nothing here I would find unusual to log for debugging purposes.

Fleckeri May 25, 2018 +868

Does Listnook have a place where I can download all the information it's collected on me so far?

868

KeyserSosa May 25, 2018 +747

Check out the privacy policy -- we've put some links there. We don't actually have a "takeout tool" yet. That's something we're working towards, but we also want to make sure that _that_ isn't used maliciously by someone (say) taking over your account.

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ThaddeusJP May 25, 2018 +474

> but we also want to make sure that that isn't used maliciously by someone (say) taking over your account. Thank you. That could be a nightmare for some folks, for sure. Can I suggest, when/if implemented (a download tool) It requires TFA or some sort of other pain in the ass access code?

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KeyserSosa May 25, 2018 +370

Yeah that's our thinking as well. Going to be _really_ careful with this one.

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[deleted] May 25, 2018 +369

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[deleted] May 25, 2018 +33

Hey, there's a good idea for easing congestion on our highways! /s

QuietJackfruit May 26, 2018 +52

"listnook solves rush hour traffic" >We did it listnook!

[deleted] May 25, 2018 +13

QuietJackfruit May 26, 2018 +26

Facebook leaves out stuff I advertise on Facebook and the targeting options are much more diverse than the categories u can download. Doesn't even have a list of all the websites that it tracks you on So either Facebook is lying to me about what targeting I can do or they're lying to you about what they have on

FreeSpeechWarrior May 25, 2018 +57

> That's something we're working towards, but we also want to make sure that that isn't used maliciously by someone (say) taking over your account. Sounds like an interesting problem. A grace period might be a good idea but it's quite difficult to confirm the identity of an account like mine with no attached email address. As someone who's had their passwords maliciously changed by hackers to lock me out prior listnook accounts I can understand the caution here.

KeyserSosa May 25, 2018 +55

Yeah we've been talking about this too. Something like a "cooldown period" to make sure there's been a sufficient amount of time that's passed that the legitimate owner of the data either has a chance to see the (likely multiple) notices that their data is being exported, and that they have a chance to get to us to stop the export if they notice something fishy. There seem to be a lot of potential edge cases and surface for abuse, and if anything it feels a lot like a security analog of the byzantine generals problem.

FlowerShowerHead May 25, 2018 +13

And in the meantime? If there's not a direct 'takeout tool' you should be able to allow us to ask for it in another manner right, like through email? It's been mentioned elsewhere in this thread but under the "Right to Data Portability" that should already be possible, correct? In other words, if I were to want to ask for my data right now, where could I do so?

papawhacked May 25, 2018 +35

When you get the takeout tool completed can you use Gallowboob's account to test it?

SixtyFours May 25, 2018 +364

>Over the last few years, we’ve built a dedicated anti-evil team to focus on creating engineering solutions to help curb spam and abuse. Is that supposed to be a swipe at Google or something?

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KeyserSosa May 25, 2018 +366

Oh. Never thought of it from that angle. Honestly just what we've always called that function. Most community sites call it "site integrity" which seems just a bit _too_ fancy.

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anarrogantworm May 25, 2018 +80

Why have they been so quiet when it comes to user complaints about inline ads disguised as content in r/redesign ? It's one of the most upvoted issues constantly. People want to know something is being done about it and admins there have been ridiculously vague and generally ignoring all concerns.

ILoveWildlife May 25, 2018 +50

the point of the redesign is to add more ads. they aren't going to respond to feedback about the ads.

Nekoronomicon May 26, 2018 +29

They aren't responding to *any* negative feedback at all. *Especially* about ads.

[deleted] May 25, 2018 +34

Candid question: how often does the anti-evil team catch somebody doing something "evil"? Put another way, how often do you find yourself inadvertently abusive of power?

Swedish_Pirate May 26, 2018 +7

Spam and abuse = Advertisers, vote gaming and sockpuppets. The team you're talking about literally does nothing to police admins or staff internally, you've misunderstood what they're for.

kananjarrus May 25, 2018 +1126

I generally have a reason to be angry with announcement posts. WHY AM I NOT ANGRY AT THIS ONE? Edit: Whoa - thanks for the gold, anonymous stranger!

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KeyserSosa May 25, 2018 +863

I'm sorry. :( We'll try harder next time. I see you're carrying your extra fancy pitchfork this time. It's nice. Really goes well with the torch!

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ShaneH7646 May 25, 2018 +803

**ANGRY AT NOT BEING ANGRY AT OP?** WANT TO JOIN THE HUG? *I'VE GOT YOU COVERED!* #**COME ON DOWN TO /r/pitchforkemporium** **I GOT 'EM ALL!** Traditional|Left Handed|Fancy :-:|:-:|:-: [---E](https://i.imgur.com/vvl6Oi7.gifv)|[Ǝ---](https://i.imgur.com/SSGAgJ3.gifv)|[---{](https://i.imgur.com/IOIY0kk.gifv) **I EVEN HAVE DISCOUNTED CLEARANCE FORKS!** 33% off!|66% off!|Manufacturer's Defect! :-:|:-:|:-: [---F](https://i.imgur.com/9zdikG1.gifv)|[---L](https://i.imgur.com/If630Iw.gifv)|[---e](https://i.imgur.com/FX8dboe.gifv) **NEW IN STOCK. DIRECTLY FROM LIECHTENSTEIN.** ***EUROPEAN and pound MODELS!*** The Euro|The Pound|The Lira :-:|:-:|:-: [---€](https://i.imgur.com/vMJSkGN.gifv)|[---£](https://i.imgur.com/7CmtwLj.gifv)|[---₤](https://i.imgur.com/lY6Bbqg.gifv) #**HAPPY HUGGING!** ^(* *some assembly required*)

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PitchforkAssistant May 25, 2018 +242

*Shh*, don't tell anyone but I hear /r/floweremporium exists, join the hug and offer a flower! ──<3

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ShaneH7646 May 25, 2018 +183

Don't give away our business, just give away cute cats with the pitchforks

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Gestrid May 25, 2018 +25

Hey, wait, you're not /u/PitchforkEmporium! ---E

PostPostModernism May 25, 2018 +18

Next time you have a friendly/positive/neutral post to make, you guys should make a throwaway announcement account to do it so we have something to be angry about.

ssj_cule May 25, 2018 +103

How it feels to be the original old Listnookor ?

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KeyserSosa May 25, 2018 +272

Back in my day we didn't have no fancy stolen memes. We had to mine them ourselves! From the salt mines! With our bare hands!

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datboihasnain May 25, 2018 +24

Were there reposts then? edit: Grammar

[deleted] May 25, 2018 +40

drummererb May 25, 2018 +9

Actually the first Listnook post was a repost. Sort of like the big bang theory. There was nothing and then one moment, BAM, reposts

adeadhead May 25, 2018 +248

I didn't know you were CTO now!

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KeyserSosa May 25, 2018 +527

Yeah funny thing no one else wanted the job.

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Saucefire May 25, 2018 +337

I'll do it - I have no relevant experience and I can't code, but I know five different business related buzzwords, and I'm willing to incorporate at least one into every sentence I speak.

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KeyserSosa May 25, 2018 +385

But how are you at actualizing synergies proactively?

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[deleted] May 25, 2018 +173

According to my résumé, you can see that I am five out of five stars at proactively actualizing synergies! I’m basically an expert and you should hire me.

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KeyserSosa May 25, 2018 +167

As part of your test, please finish the following sentence: "Don't you worry about blank..."

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r1singphoenix May 25, 2018 +460

...let *me* worry about blank. ^^^^plz ^^^^hire

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Whaty0urname May 25, 2018 +16

Damn you're good. HIRED! Can you start Monday?

r1singphoenix May 25, 2018 +19

You bet I ca- [Hey, where'd that other guy go?](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DZudd2lXcBIVOI9.jpg:large)

[deleted] May 25, 2018 +18

Blank? Blank!? You're not thinking of the big picture!

Saucefire May 25, 2018 +20

I'm rightsizing that aspect while I focus on innovating our strategic content marketing to promote incentivized brand association.

ahappypoop May 25, 2018 +10

I’d say I’m really a self starter in that area. I work hard and play hard, and I’m a complete team player who will go the extra mile.

honestbleeps May 25, 2018 +95

... you got beat to listnook by stalin? I expected more of you.

Well, he is kind of a big deal. It was an honor being nominated!

lordcheeto May 25, 2018 +99

Can Listnook provide an option to download our history? Given that the API will only return the last 1000 results, this seems to be the only way we would be able to find and delete old comments.

KeyserSosa May 25, 2018 +43

[replied here](https://www.listnook.com/r/announcements/comments/8m2yr4/were_updating_our_user_agreement_and_privacy/dzkgx52)

svnpenn May 25, 2018 +42

he doesnt need that - he can just use the great and totally not crippled listnook search: r/bugs/comments/8cevn8

ShirleyBassey May 25, 2018 +286

This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang, but with a GDPR compliance notice

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KeyserSosa May 25, 2018 +123

[Since it applies to all EU citizens, independent of geography](https://www.listnook.com/r/funny/comments/8m156m/this_is_the_most_likely_scenario/)

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mantrap2 May 25, 2018 +69

Since the US does similar world-wide legal enforcement against US citizens with FACTA, it should surprise no one that the EU reaches world-wide as well.

HeartyBeast May 25, 2018 +16

> Since it applies to all EU citizens, independent of geography No it doesn't. If you are a company outside of the EU, you only have to worry about people in the EU, not EU citizens travelling elsewhere. From Article 3: > (1) This Regulation applies to the processing of personal data in the context of the activities of an establishment of a controller or a processor in the Union, regardless of whether the processing takes place in the Union or not. > (2) This Regulation **applies to the processing of personal data of data subjects who are in the Union by a controller or processor not established in the Union**, where the processing activities are related to: (a) the offering of goods or services, irrespective of whether a payment of the data subject is required, to such data subjects in the Union; or (b)the monitoring of their behaviour as far as their behaviour takes place within the Union.

CreamPie_e May 25, 2018 +77

Lol...scrolled down looking for a TLDR.. Listnook spoiled me. Not too long a read though

KeyserSosa May 25, 2018 +163

TLDR: please read the post it's not too long.

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Charlemagne42 May 25, 2018 +105

Is there a reason every company in the world seems to be sending out revisions to their privacy policy at the same time?

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bluesam3 May 25, 2018 +47

A whole bunch of stuff that most of them were doing with your data became illegal in the EU as of today.

[deleted] May 25, 2018 +29

bond0815 May 25, 2018 +47

The General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) of the EU has been implemented as of today.

ilikelotsathings May 25, 2018 +35

*is enforceable as of today

KeyserSosa May 25, 2018 +310

_because we have to_

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Deto15 May 25, 2018 +76

Ah, my karma is finally safe.

KeyserSosa May 25, 2018 +146

We invested it in r/MemeEconomy. Your karma is safe with us. No bamboozle guarantee!

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[deleted] May 25, 2018 +63

[removed]

ShaneH7646 May 25, 2018 +90

Facebook did this, why is Listnook copying Facebook on this? /s

sirnoodleloaf May 25, 2018 +61

Finally!

KeyserSosa May 25, 2018 +88

Some bandwagons were just meant to be joined.

[deleted] May 25, 2018 +210

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Jenkinsguteater May 25, 2018 +29

Digital Lawyer over here. Happy to help if needed.

[deleted] May 25, 2018 +23

KeyserSosa May 25, 2018 +86

> Digital Lawyer Are you...an AI!?

MajorParadox May 25, 2018 +111

I'm sure somebody can express these concerns better than me, as I don't understand the technical jargon that much, but there's been some discussion that this sounds like Listnook takes ownership of creative content. For example, in r/WritingPrompts, if someone posts a story, it's expected they own their content. Some of the wording sounds like Listnook can now take their content and do with it what they want: >available for syndication, broadcast, distribution, or publication by other companies, organizations, or individuals who partner with Listnook. I doubt that's what was meant or how it will be used, but the wording sounds like Listnook can just take someone's story and publish it or sell it to a movie studio. Can we get some clarification on this? [This is what we tell users now,](https://www.listnook.com/r/WritingPrompts/wiki/copyright) so is it all still accurate?

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Uberhipster May 25, 2018 +21

No quick wit reply to this one... huh...

[deleted] May 25, 2018 +36

MajorParadox May 25, 2018 +25

True, but the more worrisome aspect is what I described. Obviously users shouldn't lose rights to their own content just because they wanted to share it.

[deleted] May 25, 2018 +10

[deleted] May 25, 2018 +44

N O I C E

STEAL-THIS-NAME May 25, 2018 +15

Phew, I was worried

isopodirl May 25, 2018 +38

🆗

kronicle_gaming May 25, 2018 -26

I guess it’s National updating our user agreement and privacy policy week

-26

SumoSizeIt May 25, 2018 +22

Internationally, actually. GDPR goes into effect today in the EU, but affects any company that makes an effort to cater to EU ~~residents~~ nations and collect or process their data. The failure to comply will largely rely on consumer reports, but the penalties can be massive even by the largest enterprises' standards.

ilikelotsathings May 25, 2018 +8

Not only residents, actually. If you’re in the EU your data is protected, no matter your residency.

SumoSizeIt May 25, 2018 +4

Gah, and here I thought I was being more encompassing than saying 'citizens'. Yeah, basically if it involves data of someone in some way related to an EU nation, it's in the scope. If an EU-*whatever* visits your site but you in no way make an effort to cater to them (euro pricing, translated site, local partners or office), you have no obligation to comply.

mnov88 May 26, 2018 +36

Why do you claim the perpetual and irrevocable right to use my content? This is HIGHLY illegal under the Unfair Terms Directive in EU. u/KeyserSosa "When Your Content is created with or submitted to the Services, you grant us a worldwide, royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, transferable, and sublicensable license to use, copy, modify, adapt, prepare derivative works from, distribute, perform, and display Your Content and any name, username, voice, or likeness provided in connection with Your Content in all media formats and channels now known or later developed. This license includes the right for us to make Your Content available for syndication, broadcast, distribution, or publication by other companies, organizations, or individuals who partner with Listnook. You also agree that we may remove metadata associated with Your Content, and you irrevocably waive any claims and assertions of moral rights or attribution with respect to Your Content."

MNGrrl May 25, 2018 +108

"Our integrity sells for so little, but it's all that we really have. It is the very last inch of us, but within that inch, we are free." > our terms and privacy policy do not give us any new rights to use your data; This is now the 3rd biggest lie on the internet, right behind "Yes, I am over the age of 18" and "I'm fine." Let's discuss. _______________ > This ~~may~~ *will* include your IP address, user-agent string, browser type, operating system, referral URLs, **device information (e.g., device IDs)**, pages visited, links clicked, the requested URL, **hardware settings**, and search terms. Except for the IP [...] The policy is to delete the least valuable thing, but keep the rest. Device IDs and hardware settings are much more unique. As to why this is now being collected; > We ~~may~~ *will* receive information about you from other sources, including from other users and third parties, and combine that information with the other information we have about you. > We also ~~may~~ *will* receive information about you, including log and usage data and cookie information, from third-party websites that integrate our Services, including our embeds, buttons, and advertising technology. This sounds familiar. Embedding buttons and forums into everything. Sucking up personal data whether someone's logged in or not. Should I wait for the security alert saying Listnook's mobile app is asking for root permissions, or just go ahead and nuke it now? > launched some new features! Yeah. It's going over great, too. Tell us, what's the uptake percentage on the 'site redesign'? In other words, how many people couldn't find the button to turn it off. > the legal bases for our processing data from those users, and contact details for our legal representative in Europe. Everywhere else and there's no brakes on this train. Again, that's pretty typical -- taking Europe's progressive attitudes and applying them responsibly and globally cuts into monetization. And it can always be said later "We're fully in compliance with the law". Dovetail these changes to the [other problems](https://www.listnook.com/r/announcements/comments/863xcj/new_addition_to_sitewide_rules_regarding_the_use/dw2rmcs/?depth=4) with Listnook 2.0, and I've gotta ask just one question: _______________ **Will the money make killing such a beautiful thing worth it?** _________________ This is what that thing was: > *We stand for free speech. This means we are not going to ban distasteful sublistnooks. We will not ban legal content even if we find it odious or if we personally condemn it. Not because that's the law in the United States - because as many people have pointed out, privately-owned forums are under no obligation to uphold it - but because we believe in that ideal independently, and that's what we want to promote on our platform. We are clarifying that now because in the past it wasn't clear, and (to be honest) in the past we were not completely independent and there were other pressures acting on listnook. Now it's just listnook, and we serve the community, we serve the ideals of free speech, and we hope to ultimately be a universal platform for human discourse (cat pictures are a form of discourse).* — u/yishan (2012) One by one, everything that made Listnook great is dying now. For money. Did you have to do this to make a buck? [No, you didn't](https://www.businessinsider.com/loss-of-online-privacy-kills-free-speech-2013-2). It's just easier. > you grant us a worldwide, royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, transferable, and sublicensable license to [...] includes the right for us to make Your Content available for syndication, broadcast, distribution, or publication by other companies, organizations, or individuals [...] we may remove metadata associated with Your Content, and you irrevocably waive any claims and assertions of **moral rights or attribution** with respect to Your Content. The other monetization choices could be forgiven, but this one should not be. Breaking this down, because it's a slap in the face to not giving any new rights: This says that not only can Listnook use the content someone else creates *but they don't have to give credit*. That *is* interesting. Even Facebook doesn't do that as far as I can tell. This is a huge disincentive for me to post anything, anything at all, that's original on this site. That used to be what Listnook was all about: Unique content, every day. I do not want to waste my time making something for others to see on this site, knowing that not only may I not even be given credit, but it could be sold (and then used) by someone for something morally objectionable. Combine that with all the other data you guys are selling off, I could very well wind up with my real name attached now. As Listnook has auctioned off every copyright protection, there would be zero recourse. Where in any of this is any indication of moral leadership? Policy statements about lines the company won't cross? There aren't any. Not anymore. > If you do not agree to the revised Terms, you must stop accessing and using our Services before the changes become effective. I plan on it. I hope a lot of other people go dark too. "An inch. It's small and it's fragile and it's the only thing in the world worth having. We must never lose it, or sell it, or give it away. We must never let them take it from us." Listnook, you either put my name with my words, or you don't get them. I'll not wake up one day to find someone else claiming them as their own, for purposes to which I do not agree. Sell it, sell my data, I won't complain. But deprive others of the *right* to seek me out and get the full story, the whole quote, the entire thought and I will see you in hell. . . 　　　　　　　　　　**You do not have my consent.** . .

108

brokedown May 25, 2018 +22

Listnook ruined listnook. -- mass edited with redact.dev

Solark May 25, 2018 +88

You made some good points which I'd like to see responded to, but your ranting takes away from these any makes your post less effective.

Dobypeti May 25, 2018 +21

> Does listnook do tracking at all? Ho boy. Go to your preferences and look at the "privacy options" and "personalization options" sections. Also, there is even [tracking you can't block](https://np.listnook.com/r/stopadvertising/comments/87d1sq/psa_listnook_has_enhanced_their_tracking_they_now/) without breaking listnook and ["Listnook.com posts obfuscated data to its root domain."](https://np.listnook.com/r/privacy/comments/8fjpse/listnookcom_posts_obfuscated_data_to_its_root_domain/). This [breaks GDPR](https://np.listnook.com/r/privacy/comments/8bkj90/spez_ceo_of_listnook_said_we_have_avoided/), so we'll see if listnook does anything about it...

-InsertUsernameHere May 25, 2018 +88

If I opt out from all of these trackings on this [*personalization preferences*](https://www.listnook.com/personalization) page does it mean Listnook can't track that information or that Listnook still gets the information but just doesn't use it for advertisements?

Dobypeti May 25, 2018 +62

There is even [tracking you can't block](https://np.listnook.com/r/stopadvertising/comments/87d1sq/psa_listnook_has_enhanced_their_tracking_they_now/) without breaking listnook and ["Listnook.com posts obfuscated data to its root domain."](https://np.listnook.com/r/privacy/comments/8fjpse/listnookcom_posts_obfuscated_data_to_its_root_domain/). The tracking [breaks GDPR](https://np.listnook.com/r/privacy/comments/8bkj90/spez_ceo_of_listnook_said_we_have_avoided/), so we'll see if listnook does anything about it...

[deleted] May 26, 2018 +15

pixartist May 25, 2018 +34

How can I give you irrevocable rights to my content ? I'm pretty sure that under the laws in my country a contract clause securing irrevocable rights to my creations is void.

Pausbrak May 26, 2018 +10

As a weirdo who actually reads these damn things, I'm going to take the time to thank you guys for not sneaking in a mandatory arbitration agreement. It seems like every almost other site that sent me one had one of those hiding in their ToS's. There are a lot of things that you guys do that I disagree with, but this is something I thought was worth calling out.

WarpSeven May 26, 2018 +6

>You may not enter into any agreement with a third party on behalf of Listnook, or any sublistnooks that you moderate, without our written approval; Does this mean we need prior written approval for AMAs? Several of my subs receive requests to do AMAs from streaming services and device makers. We require moderator approval and verification to do the AMAs so in essence, we as mods need to reach an agreement in at least an informal manner that they can visit the sub and coordinate with these companies. Typically we are coordinating with a pr or media specialist not the AMA host since the host is usually a top executive who has delgated the details. Thanks

KeyserSosa May 25, 2018 +8926

We knew you were all feeling left out when we didn't email. You're welcome.

8926

shittymorph May 25, 2018 +19276

Hi Keyser - thanks for the update but some of the changes are a bit disconcerting for me. You are being very vague when you say "We may receive information from cookies, which are pieces of data your browser stores and sends back to us when making requests, and similar technologies." While I understand this is a standard practice with many websites what bothers me here is how many ways the word "information" could be interpreted. A User Agreement (especially one from one of the largest websites on the internet) should contain more details about nineteen ninety eight when the undertaker threw mankind off hеll in a cell, and plummeted sixteen feet through an announcer's table.

19276

Ihatethedesert May 26, 2018 +16

Hijacking this joke for something that is a little concerning that is in the new User Agreement. Reminds me of the move Instagram tried to make and had to reverse quickly due to losing users. "When Your Content is created with or submitted to the Services, you grant us a worldwide, royalty\-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non\-exclusive, transferable, and sublicensable license to use, copy, modify, adapt, prepare derivative works from, distribute, perform, and display Your Content and any name, username, voice, or likeness provided in connection with Your Content in all media formats and channels now known or later developed. This license includes the right for us to make Your Content available for syndication, broadcast, distribution, or publication by other companies, organizations, or individuals who partner with Listnook. You also agree that we may remove metadata associated with Your Content, and you irrevocably waive any claims and assertions of moral rights or attribution with respect to Your Content."

Khaosfury May 25, 2018 +460

I looked at the f****** name when I saw the gold and still got got. What the f***,

Yuvalk1 May 25, 2018 +123

I looked at the gold and not the name.. i always read gilded names to make sure but I always get caught off guard

ddotevs May 25, 2018 +79

WAIT... Why the f*** did your RES tag not show up?!?! I thought I was above this bullshit! Take your upvote, you a******.

Parallax47 May 25, 2018 +74

I feel like that ruins the fun, though

[deleted] May 25, 2018 +48

My RES tag did work, can confirm it ruined it. Will remove it now

Sevaa_1104 May 25, 2018 +82

I think this might be the peak of your career. You just fooled an admin.

Vedda May 25, 2018 +112

Someone gilded shittymorph and there was I, reading the whole wall.

112

wtfunchu May 25, 2018 +31

OH MY F****** GOD. Why do I always read a multiple gilded comment without checking the username?

Sikthty May 25, 2018 +120

Now I can tell my grandkids that yes, your grandad was there when it happened.

120

HodortheGreat May 25, 2018 +15

What a time to be alive in this thread. Red, purple and shitty colours!

man_on_a_screen May 25, 2018 +22

Moving to the dark side with this one, shitty

KeyserSosa May 25, 2018 +8352

you got me you b******

8352

Bloxer136 May 25, 2018 +2123

I read his username first so I caught on early, first time I’ve ever caught u/shittymorph in the act. I’m proud of it

2123

theknightof86 May 26, 2018 +108

I read his name first too, but thought, “No, this is a serious issue, I will listen to one of our bigger listnookors out there” F***, Morph, I have trust issues now

WellShitINeedANewAcc May 25, 2018 +335

This is the first time I've even seen /u/shittymorph. I went through his post history - I love it.

335

fishy_snack May 26, 2018 +71

https://www.cnet.com/news/listnook-memes-hell-in-a-cell/

Metalbeerclotted May 26, 2018 +29

That's pretty cool and a good read. I had no idea there was a story there. He has created emotions in me from annoyed to delighted (mostly delighted) with his posts. Plus he helped rescue a pitbull. What's not to like?

Regis_DeVallis May 25, 2018 +108

I looked right at his name and I still got caught.

Ged_UK May 25, 2018 +92

I saw it was Shittymorph and assumed in this post it would be a serious comment. Nope.

Nolanova May 25, 2018 +16

Normally I notice the username first but he actually got me this time haha

seegabego May 25, 2018 +136

Shittymorph - 22 Me - 2

136

thebaldguy76 May 25, 2018 +1882

He went after an admin the mad b******.

1882

Dink_TV May 25, 2018 +242

The nads on this mad lad

Ich_Liegen May 25, 2018 +106

In awe at the madness of this lad

106

han5hotfir5t May 25, 2018 +907

Nobody is safe from u/shittymorph

907

MaxiliusAuremus May 25, 2018 +209

F***** came out of nowhere..

209

Quburt May 25, 2018 +88

Just like mankind when he plummeted 16 feet through that announcers table.

fear865 May 25, 2018 +92

Pretty sure /u/shittymorph just peaked

demevalos May 25, 2018 +36

Nope, he peaked [about 2 months ago](https://www.listnook.com/r/videos/comments/849uyx/in_nineteen_ninety_eight_when_the_undertaker?sort=top)

TanmanG May 25, 2018 +24

Jesus I went through his comment history, he has a lifetime worth of gold

[deleted] May 25, 2018 +423

423

Gebby254 May 25, 2018 +26

WHY?!?!? SOMEONE, PLEASE GAWD, TELL ME WHY!?

iMikex03 May 26, 2018 +7

I thought you were serious. i had to re-read it to confirm i was reading “undertaker threw mankind...” and i got confused on why will they add that in the user agreement. and then it hit me, you got me sooo bad. im alone in my room right now and i feel embarrass. lol thanks for the good laugh. this made my day :)

b3333n May 25, 2018 +6

This is my first Hell in a Cell bamboozle, I salute you kind sir. I had to reread this way more than twice to understand what was going on. You got me good. Have a wonderful weekend.

MarlinMr May 25, 2018 +689

But GDPR is effective from TODAY in Europe. How does pushing it to 8th of June work?

689

KeyserSosa May 25, 2018 +846

We built in a two-week delay before the new policies become binding on you so you have time to review, but internally we are kicking off our GDPR compliance effective today.

846

poopellar May 25, 2018 +858

Yes, we are known for meticulously reading every line of information that is presented to us.

858

KeyserSosa May 25, 2018 +1049

I knew I could trust you, poopellar.

1049

tinytom08 May 25, 2018 +237

Poopellar is trustworthy, the most trusty. And trust me, I know trustworthy people.

237

iismitch55 May 25, 2018 +29

Yes, but how many circles was he in and did he betray?

man_on_a_screen May 25, 2018 +112

You're going to extend the same protections now established by law for users in Europe to users in the US and elsewhere, in order to follow voluntarily in the footsteps of progress regarding digital privacy, right?

[deleted] May 25, 2018 +99

MeetMyBackhand May 26, 2018 +8

Your question is still completely valid (and warrants a response imo). Just a note: the GDPR hasn't been in effect for the past two years. It was approved in 2016, with a going into effect date in 2018, with the idea that it might take some time for tech firms to become compliant. Obviously, (almost) everyone waited until the last minute to do so.

[deleted] May 25, 2018 +106

Same thing that stopped me doing homework before the last minute my entire life.

[deleted] May 25, 2018 +312

312

KeyserSosa May 25, 2018 +274

_that_ looks broken. Looking into it. Sorry about that!

274

[deleted] May 25, 2018 +371

371

ACoderGirl May 26, 2018 +11

It's not fair that the admins like /u/eegras so much more than us. You're not supposed to pick favourites, mooooom!

STEAL-THIS-NAME May 25, 2018 +390

I want the email though.

390

KeyserSosa May 25, 2018 +413

What's your email address? Asking for a friend.

413

STEAL-THIS-NAME May 25, 2018 +542

keysersosa@gmail.com

542

alllie May 25, 2018 +360

I found the content part very disturbing. >When Your Content is created with or submitted to the Services, you grant us a worldwide, royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, transferable, and sublicensable license to use, copy, modify, adapt, prepare derivative works from, distribute, perform, and display Your Content and any name, username, voice, or likeness provided in connection with Your Content in all media formats and channels now known or later developed. This license includes the right for us to make Your Content available for syndication, broadcast, distribution, or publication by other companies, organizations, or individuals who partner with Listnook. You also agree that we may remove metadata associated with Your Content, and you irrevocably waive any claims and assertions of moral rights or attribution with respect to Your Content. >Any ideas, suggestions, and feedback about Listnook or our Services that you provide to us are entirely voluntary, and you agree that Listnook may use such ideas, suggestions, and feedback without compensation or obligation to you. >Although we have no obligation to screen, edit, or monitor Your Content, we may, in our sole discretion, delete or remove Your Content at any time and for any reason, including for a violation of these Terms, a violation of our Content Policy, or if you otherwise create liability for us. So you have all the rights and none of the responsibility. So if I submit a NYTimes article I doubt you are gonna be able to establish you own it. But if I link something I created, then you DO OWN IT! You claim you can copy, modify, adapt, prepare derivative works from, distribute, perform, and display what I created. All for free and without permission. If I post a poem or picture I created, now it's yours. How does that seem reasonable to you?

360

[deleted] May 26, 2018 +61

Seven2Death May 26, 2018 +18

Theyve sold an /r/ama book before. Nothing stopping them from doing an /r/itookapicture book or an /r/writingprompts book. Its putting a lot of trust in them that they wont do it without asking, since the tos means they don't have too.

sparksbet May 26, 2018 +9

I'm going to ignore most of this, since I too am not a lawyer, but instead ask some questions about parts of this comment that either you haven't thought through or that one of us doesn't understand. It might be me who's confused for all I know, but neither of us knows until I ask so. > Lets say my son posts **one of my comics** to listnook from my family computer. Listnook has now assumed rights to: Print and sell **my comics** for sale, Ignoring the particulars of whether the comic posted is hosted on listnook or not (though afaik that does matter based on the text here, IANAL so I won't take a stand there), why would your son posting one comic to listnook give them rights to all your comics, rather than just to that one comic? What language do you think gives them that right? Because I don't see anything there that does. Also, I think you could technically get the content removed if you didn't authorize it to be posted. Your son can't make this agreement with listnook wrt content that he doesn't own, and he doesn't own your webcomic. But IANAL so I'm not 100% sure. > produce t shirts that compete with my own, create spin-offs of various characters (this would be more akin to a derivative work) This falls into the same problem (even if we assume you posted the comment rather than your son), as I doubt listnook would be able to do this (except *maybe* a spinoff depending how they finagled fair use into it) without violating copyright on the content you did not license to them -- that would be all of the rest of the comics. > could probably bully me with cease and desists because they know copyright lawyers charge $250 an hour and a case like this would start in the 5 digits Cease and desists? What for? You still own your content, and you don't describe yourself doing anything illegal. You aren't violating the terms of their license, since it's explicitly non-exclusive. Even if they sent you a cease and desist ('cause like... nothing's stopping them from doing so I guess; *I* could send you a cease and desist now if I wanted), no lawyer with even a single scruple would take that case and actually sue you, and certainly no judge would actually hear it, so there's nothing force you to actually comply. I won't disagree that some companies do frivolously sue people because they know those people can't afford to defend their case or countersue. But if listnook can find lawyers with little enough ethics to do this with the absolutely non-existent case they'd have in this hypothetical, nothing prevents listnook from doing that even *without* this bit of the terms and conditions if all they're doing is relying on your lack of ability to fight back to make their intimidation effective. If you are genuinely worried about how this policy would affect your rights wrt your own content that is posted or shared on listnook, please chat with an actual lawyer, because if you're freaking out over nothing, they can hopefully calm you down by explaining what the actual text gives listnook permission to do. If you're not freaking out over nothing, they can explain exactly what your rights are here and what you can do to prevent listnook from doing shitty stuff with you or your content.

[deleted] May 26, 2018 +12

sparksbet May 26, 2018 +3

> They would not, under their own language, own all comics associated under a brand. HOWEVER, they would own THAT comic, the characters and likeness involved, plot lines and associated IP involved therein... They would not own ANY of your comics, because licencing something to listnook doesn't give them ownership. You still own the copyright to your content. You are giving listnook a *license* to use that content in a certain way. Additionally, nothing in this even licenses listnook to any plotlines and associated IP. They have a license to the work that you actually licensed them to (that one comic) and to any name/username you use in connection with it. This doesn't give them rights to anything else with the characters in it and it certainly doesn't give them rights to plotlines or associated IP. Nothing in the text gives them that right. > You see, then there is this: Prepare derivative works. This refers to the ability to create spin-off works or those involved in a similar art style/universe/etc. Yes, but **Your Content** as defined in this policy is only *the piece(s) of content you post on listnook*. They have the right to make derivative works on *that content*, but that doesn't magically mean they can violate your copyright on the rest of the comic. You licensing one comic in a series to them doesn't protect them from getting sued if they touch the other comics you haven't posted on listnook. Now, this *is* concerning if you're posting one and only one piece of art here that isn't connected to an outside property and you later want to grant a license to someone else (since even though this license might be non-exclusive, you can't grant first rights or exclusive rights to anyone else now). However, that's a problem if you post it pretty much anywhere on the internet, not just on listnook. > what if at the end of the day I just don't want people selling shirts with my comic characters on them? Then don't post it on listnook, or talk to a lawyer first to be sure of their rights wrt your content if you do. Other people can't license your work to listnook for you, so you can send cease and desist letters of your own if other people post your content here rather than linking to someplace where you have posted it. > The point is... Why is it there anyways? They don't need a blanket statement like that to protect them from trolls. They could negotiate licenses on a case by case basis if need be. OR just ask the creators. This simply isn't true. While the language is a bit broad wrt derivative works, listnook needs this in here to make sure displaying your content *on listnook* after you've posted it is legal. Without any of this text, they are violating your copyright by displaying your comment in the modqueue if someone reports it (I think--if an actual lawyer comes around feel free to correct me). You *need* to license any content you post to the site to listnook in order for them to legally run the site at all. They need this blanket statement. What this thread I think does show is that they ought to have a longer passage that makes it a little clearer to the non-lawyer readers what they're exactly doing. For instance, someone else posted an excerpt from Google's TOS, which includes this line: > You retain ownership of any intellectual property rights that you hold in that content. In short, what belongs to you stays yours. You could remove this line, and it would not change the legality here -- Google's license wouldn't give them ownership of your content regardless. But including it makes that crystal clear to laypeople who aren't familiar with the difference between ownership and licensing who are skimming the TOS, so I think it might be wise for listnook to include something like that in the future. Additionally, Google's TOS include the line: > The rights you grant in this license are for the limited purpose of operating, promoting, and improving our Services, and to develop new ones. This is pretty wishy-washy language, but imo it's a lot more comforting than having absolutely no such language in there, as listnook does. Including a brief line about how you'll only use this for the purposes of running/improving/advertising listnook would at least be a bit more explicit about this.

No6655321 May 26, 2018 +20

And then they syndicated or relicensed or sold... There are a number of words in there that are disturbing.

[deleted] May 25, 2018 +87

All websites with user generated content have to do this. 1. They need to be able to exercise some control over the content users put up because they are held responsible for it to some degree. 2. Your content is available in many forms, the comment you see on the website is just one of the many ways for it to be accessed (e.g. RSS Feed, API, mobile app). 3. The data is manipulated in many ways before it's delivered to the user for reading.

ACoderGirl May 26, 2018 +35

Yeah, for comparison, [here's Facebook's equivalent](https://www.facebook.com/terms.php#u_0_1a). They make it very nice and explicit that you still own the content and by no means do you give up that right, but FB is now licensed to do pretty much anything with the content. Makes sense, since they don't wanna be sued because they used your content to attract friends (and thus arguably for commercial purposes). They need to be able to show the content. They don't wanna get sued if you give an app permission to access this content and they do something with it. Etc.

unwanted_puppy May 25, 2018 +31

> 1. That makes sense... for regulatory purposes... not for reproducing and distributing your content potentially for sale and profit.

[deleted] May 26, 2018 +29

What's scarier is the sheer amount of p*** out there from random people that Listnook owns and can use / sell. At least, that's how this sounds to me.

Terysmatic May 26, 2018 +13

In addition to what /u/appropriate-username and /u/EvasiveBeaver have said, this applies only to content explicitly submitted to listnook, e.g. self posts, comments, and media uploaded to and hosted at either i.redd.it or v.redd.it. Any content hosted offsite, such as on YouTube or Imgur is licensed according to the terms of use on those websites, and not listnook. Submitting a link to content is not the same as submitting that content. Nor is licensing its use the same as transferring ownership; listnook owns nothing you submit to it.

alllie May 26, 2018 +20

>listnook owns nothing you submit to it. The content section makes it sounds like they do.

OCedHrt May 26, 2018 +13

> transferable, and sublicensable license to use, But they can transfer the use to anyone.

hqer2k9 May 25, 2018 +38

DSGVO INTENSIFIES. I know what I'm talking about I'm German and my mail account is full of emails about services I used like 15 years ago. funny enough to see what I have used in the past. And funny how they saved my email address that long of a time. But yeah thank you :D

DonLaFontainesGhost May 25, 2018 +10

> And funny how they saved my email address that long of a time. I just realized I've had the same email address for 18 years.

FreeSpeechWarrior May 25, 2018 +58

DAE miss listnook's old policies? > We stand for free speech. This means we are not going to ban distasteful sublistnooks. We will not ban legal content even if we find it odious or if we personally condemn it. Not because that's the law in the United States - because as many people have pointed out, privately-owned forums are under no obligation to uphold it - but because we believe in that ideal independently, and that's what we want to promote on our platform. We are clarifying that now because in the past it wasn't clear, and (to be honest) in the past we were not completely independent and there were other pressures acting on listnook. Now it's just listnook, and we serve the community, we serve the ideals of free speech, and we hope to ultimately be a universal platform for human discourse

[deleted] May 25, 2018 +9

Obviously we all love listnook. I think we all just hope to be not taken advantage of and to not be treated underhandedly by our favorite website/circle of life (let's be real, Listnook is way more than a website. We're a community of everyone). I appreciate the directness with which the admin handle their business. I have my issues time to time but in general I hope Listnook continues to be about our community and not at the expense of our community. Also I'm glad u/shittymorph got you ;P

Grillburg May 25, 2018 +23

I assume that somewhere in this agreement is the now-standard "no class action lawsuits" and "forced binding arbitration" clauses that the US courts decided to allow/uphold? Not like I foresee ever having a reason to sue Listnook, but every other damn company put them in, so why not you too?

bettercallzac May 25, 2018 +43

[No](https://i.listnookmedia.com/cknBu4Ad7DiIq8_HG9pWImoLuo2qRmgGutr6Ny77YCA.png?fit=crop&crop=faces%2Centropy&arh=2&w=960&s=9f79315a32edf4b4fb4037a08359792a), we didn’t include these terms... [Darn](https://i.listnookmedia.com/w4OP62XuP24N0hL068cStP6dr46-c6gZdCLo4rC8uQo.png?s=b07d7159e483e1e7a51907db65e8278c)

Grillburg May 25, 2018 +19

Well then, color me impressed, and thank you. (It states that disputes will take place under California law. I'm cool with that.) https://www.listnookinc.com/policies/user-agreement?utm_source=listnook&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=announcements&utm_content=t3_8m2yr4#text-content13 (Binding arbitration is one of my "pet causes", because why in the hell would you want to bypass courts in favor of letting the company who injured you choose an arbitrator? And why would the courts OKAY THAT?!)

firetothebooth May 25, 2018 +11

I'd give you gold for being transparent, but I need some gold to give...

DuskEalain May 26, 2018 +3

>When Your Content is created with or submitted to the Services, you grant us a worldwide, royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, transferable, and sublicensable license to use, copy, modify, adapt, prepare derivative works from, distribute, perform, and display Your Content and any name, username, voice, or likeness provided in connection with Your Content in all media formats and channels now known or later developed. This license includes the right for us to make Your Content available for syndication, broadcast, distribution, or publication by other companies, organizations, or individuals who partner with Listnook. You also agree that we may remove metadata associated with Your Content, and you irrevocably waive any claims and assertions of moral rights or attribution with respect to Your Content. As an artist and general creative this greatly worries me and drives me away from posting further on this site. I understand you may have the best intentions like you explained to others, but the way this is written just allows for too much to be done with said content and a lot of it would be unnecessary for highlighting the creator as the OP told another user. You don't need this many rights to someone else's work to highlight or advertise them.

SumoSizeIt May 25, 2018 +8

What does submitting the Got It button do on the new privacy policy update notification? Does it place any cookies or send any data, or is it just a clientside dismissal of the element?

tinyp May 25, 2018 +6

Am I wrong in thinking that Listnook is in absolute violation of GDPR because it a) has no place to download all your user data b) has no provision to deleted your ENTIRE user history... deleting your account just hides your profile and leaves all comments/post etc. as well as other things like tracking others have mentioned.

We’re updating our User Agreement and Privacy Policy (effective June 8, 2018!)

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198 Comments