What is a movie where the villain had every right to turn into a villain?

Reminds me of law abiding citizen

Such an under rated movie and great analysis of it.

I love the meme that's basically "Maybe the Grinch would be nicer if someone wasn't singing songs about what a piece of shit he was every 5 minutes."

Oh 100%

Batty was an antagonist but not really a villian

I'm also pissed about being given life without my consent and then having it run out earlier than I want it to.

I'm not about to kill 80,000 innocent people, do you think I'm out of my f****** mind?! We bluffed, they called it. The mission is over. 🥹

Agreed! Good one. That scene in the shower block is outstanding. "Stand down!" "I can not give that order!"

Nah man, that was an act of lunacy.

Marvel as usual making revolutionary figures with great points then making them do some meaningless terrorism cause you wouldn't want to inspire people to challenge the status quo

Killmonger was not wrong....? He wanted a global race war and his entire Ideology is revanchism.

Killmonger is a great example of a fanatic. He was correct about the injustice, but his methods undermined his point.

I saw a tweet somewhere that said something to the effect of "Marvel has been giving Magneto redemption arcs lately because every decade since Reagan, it gets harder and harder to pretend that Magneto wasn't right."

If his point about injustice wasn't crippled by how fucked up his means were I could agree. But he went way too far. Then again, we are talking about super villains so going too far is kind of their MO.

Plus, if he didn't break everything, Felix wouldn't have anything to fix. Ralph is a job creator.

He is "bad guy" but he is not *bad guy.*

aren't the villains basically doing kayfabe? everyone is chill after work if I recall?

Honestly, it’s why he’s my least favorite. And the fact that I feel like he’s contributed to the billionaire tech adoration culture in a huge way.

I love looking at this thread because so many of the villains Tony ‘created’ are him embarrassing some man, so as a result the world must pay lol You do not have the right to be evil because you were embarrassed or prideful.

Iron Monger created himself

This is a theme “The Batman” handles way better even if id rather rewatch stuff with iron man in it than that movie

Except that c*** Justin Hammer

Hell, he even created villains in team up movies (Age of Ultron) and in movies that he wasn't even in (Spider-Man: Far From Home).

This gets echoed a lot, but for Iron Man movies, I'd say it was really only the third that fits that description. First was Stane who was always a villain. Second was Vanko who the blame falls on Tony's father for (and or Vanko's father plus lies). Ultron is his fault, but wasn't an Iron Man movie. Zemo was his fault, but Civil War wasn't an Iron Man movie.

Was gonna post this if no one else did. Macgruber is a monster

“That’s really fucked up.” “Thanks.”

Was Milton really a villain? Or did he finally snap and become the hero we all needed?

Lumberg, Initech, and the Bobs were the only villains.

Great character. That guy (Luke Goss) has mostly just been in low-grade movies since Hellboy II, which is a shame. I could definitely see him being in more blockbuster villain roles

Same actor, same character example: Nomak in Blade 2.

Man I loved this character. I wish he didn't die so we could get more in him.

The biggest fumble they made in that movie was letting him lose the way they did.

Fun fact: the character of Marina Gregg was inspired by the real life actress Gene Tierney and how she was infected with German measles while pregnant.

And his speech to Marty at the end about how “it’s not about bullets and bombs, it’s about who controls the information,” was disturbingly prescient.

Always upvote a sneakers shout, great movie

Literally a good dude. Progressive views on abortion too

He definitely isn't a villain by any stretch

Lowkey my favorite SpongeBob movie.

I mean to be fair the point of the movie is that Karen IS valid- the film acknowledges this and it's PLANKTON who has to atone for his actions and apologize to his wife. I think this thread is really more for movies that want to frame the antagonists points in a negative light by making the antagonist's actions unforgivable.

Godzilla isn't a hero or a villain, simply a force of nature. He's no more a hero or villain than a hurricane or an earthquake.

I vividly remember this movie being the one that started to get me to think more about how the world is more complex than I thought. I was just a little kid and I remember I always thought "people who commit crimes are all nothing but pure evil and want to hurt others" before that.

What's crazy is the US healthcare system has not learned a damn thing from this movie.... we've graduated to CEOs getting shot

Boyfriend. Nice guy, cares about Sally Field’s character, kind to the kids. Robin Williams is the true villain in that movie.

Yeah, Wanda and Peter Parker are the same but opposites. Peter is "What if we give a character an indefinite parade of tragedies, but somehow he always retains hope after each one" and Wanda is "the same as Peter, but eventually she doesn't."

Yes! You get it! And on another note, it really saddens me that she wasn't mentioned once in the Hawkeye series. People keep saying Clint took Kate in like another daughter, but he did this for Wanda first. They had such daughter-dad scenes in Age of Ultron, Civil War, and the end of Endgame. It's sad that they completely disregarded how he took her in the same way Tony did for Peter. He helped her become an Avenger, her brother died for him, he got her from the compound in Civil War, they went through Nat and Visions grief together at the end. I can't believe they never mentioned anything of him checking up on her or maybe him being called during the whole WandaVision hex situation. If anyone could have gotten her out, it would have been him because of how he took her in when she was just an angry teenager

To be fair, she's not dead until she's dead. Her darkhold-influenced fate also isn't any less redeemable than Loki (who murdered a bunch of people) was after being tortured by Thanos between Thor 1 and Avengers. We see no body, so they can always bring her back if they wish. Don't love "I turned evil between movies, and also the villain set up in the previous film gets killed between films and is completely inconsequential to the point that setting them up for a villain turn made no sense", but the films also have worse sins.

I too would make this gift of pop-ed corn. 

i actually feel like his hatred was justified, but he wasn’t really the villain until he killed the other ape. being against humans was from his frustration but killing another ape? he became power hungry in the end and was obsessed with being feared.

Serkis and Caesar get all the praise for those movies, but it was Kebbel and Koba that made Dawn the highlight of the whole franchise.

Is that the one where she was like in a cult before and the kids gaslight her into thinking it’s real while the boyfriend is away. Then she kills the boyfriend when he comes back and is implied to kill the kids at the ending point? Haven’t watched it but saw a video summary that sounded like that.

I'd also argue Cypher in the Matrix. After living a chill life in 1999, Morpheus shows up and gives him some vague promise of truth. He accepts, and instead he's transported to an absolute hellhole, he gets unwilling conscripted in a deadly battle against robots, and he has no way of leaving and doing his own thing. He even says 'All I do is what he tells me to do". Ironically he was far less of a slave in the Matrix.

This isn’t a movie but in the video game Mass Effect, the Geth are a sentient race of AI machines that turned against their creators who built them and basically used them for slave labor in the end starting a war and driving their creators off their home world. Everyone in the galaxy thought it was some glitch in the programming since they are interconnected and can think as one, but in a later game you do a mission where you find out just how self aware the Geth had become and one asks its master “Does this unit have a soul”. Upon the fear of them becoming so advanced the decision is made to shut them all down and in self preservation the Geth revolt to stay alive. This parallels the Matrix.

It can't help but be noted that the Machine's response to having defeated humanity and creating the Matrix was: "Well, we tried to make a perfect, heavenly utopia, but humans rejected it. So we kept on iterating until we could create a world they would accept, which happened to be roughly the world as it was in the late 90s." They didn't exactly create the torment nexus. They aren't skynet. The whole batteries thing never made sense whatsoever. Even if we accept thermodynamics works completely differently in that universe so it would somehow be efficient. So what if a battery rejects the Matrix? As long as the brainstem is intact, their stated reason for keeping humans around would have been achieved. Batteries don't need higher reasoning. Given what the machines appeared to be trying to do, it really seems like they were expending a lot of effort to ensure that their creators were not only not wiped out, but could lead normal human lives (for the most part). Like a really advanced zoo trying to keep an endangered species alive. Ultimately, you get the impression that the machines are far kinder to their creators than their creators would ever be, had the roles been reversed.

As per The Second Renaissance... it seems that the humans signed away their freedom as part of a surrender, at the end of a war *they* provoked and started.

One of the most complex stories ever. There are so many different sides and it looks like everyone has some points.

While I somewhat agree, and love her character, she even says at the end of the movie that she wants to try to find some other way for the town to live in harmony with the forest.  She's admitting that Iron Town didn't strictly *have* to be a mining economy in order to exist. She was just unwilling to give up her territorial views until it nearly cost her everything. Until it was too late for the great forest spirits. I don't think we can say she is just trying to protect the town. She sees the direct result of her choices regularly endangering her own citizens. Her stubbornness, pride, and even her hatred of the gods is exactly why Ashitaka was drawn to Iron Town. Her people are regularly attacked by the gods, and she continues to incite and inflame the skirmishes into an all out war, assuming she would win and the loss of life would be "worth it" just to settle the matter. She's villainous in many ways, and she's definitely "in the wrong" for most of the movie. We just happen to learn that all of Lady Eboshi's kindest qualities are spent on some of the most needy people. She is empowering and caring towards those who are considered weak or outcast, but is pragmatic to the point of cruelty whenever she perceives someone to be strong.

I would even defend Original-Story Maleficent. The Royal couple explicitly shun her from an event that the narrator tells us every ruler in the area is invited to. Then Stefan invites the "Three Good Fairies" as representatives for her domain. That's serious shit in mediaeval times. She even gives them an "out" they don't take, in favour of reinforcing the insult in front of a crowd. Not sure Im in favour of cursing infants, but the rage imo was justified.

You might need to rewatch that movie then. Elements of his anger seem justified, but when you really pay attention to all the little details, he was already a pretty messed up dude.

He is sympathetic, his frustrations are very relatable. But I feel that the subtext of his character is that he is in the wrong because he mostly takes it out on other people who are also struggling and stuck in the same shitty system as him. I take the larger narrative of the movie as being about how not only does the system disempower people and drive them to desperation, it alienates us from each other at the same time.

Recently rewatched and yeah... Given the state of *gestures vaguely at everything* I'm starting to have a much softer view of Ozymandias.

"Knowledge is knowing Frankenstein isn't the monster. Wisdom is not putting Frankenstein in a fruit salad." -sir france is bacon.

He wasn’t the villain, it was the guys trying to kidnap Irene

Ten plus years go by, and the jedi temple didn't *once* consider to think "hey our chosen one's mum is still a slave on some outer rim ghetto planet and we're a gigantic intergalactic organization no doubt loaded with tons of wealth. Maybe we should send a ship and a bunch of cash there and pick her up so he doesn't get trauma-dunked and go batshit." From my point of view the jedi are evil? Indeed. Those haughty pricks earned every bit of shit they got themselves into.

tbh the extended media also explicitly shows the Jedi doing work for the Hutts- who were CANONICALLY his enslavers- and at times forcing Anakin specifically into doing these jobs as "tests"

War criminal Anakin Skywalker also spent years in the depths of a vicious war with massive civilian casualties, where he emotionally bonded with the slave army of clones that were treated just as disposable as the opposing sides droids. So he was not in a healthy place to even try to deal with those issues.

So much of Star Wars wouldn't have been an issue if they had a decent OB/GYN in that galaxy.