Zelenskyy: return of draft-age Ukrainian men from abroad is a matter of fairness

Yep. And the “my body my rights” don’t apply to men. Equality, yay! Edit: Since I got a lot of comments on this, I’m clarifying why I used irony. I’m pro legal abortion. I think women should be able to choose what to do with their bodies. I’ve voted twice in referendum in favour of it. I’m against the draft and sending men to war against their will, effectively removing the ownership of their bodies and turning them into fodder. The state shouldn’t dictate what any individual does or doesn’t do with their own body. To add to the hypocrisy, euthanasia is illegal

I have a friend who’s in Ukraine, he turns 25 in 9 days and it’s heartbreaking watching him stress about the draft, his mom was trying to get him out to live with her and his sister in Austria but they couldn’t get the money together. He’s talked about shaving to try to look younger, or just trying to run away, and I wish I knew a way to help him besides just emotional support.

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People forget that far away events are not just numbers. Plenty of people die of dehydration in far away places, we ourselves cannot really do much about, so these people become a statistic to us. Same with war, x amount of men killed on y side. You know, I suppose good news for the country doing the killing, but these are human lives, foe or not, we have 1 life, everyone just wants to make the most out of the 80-90 years we have on this dirt ball, and yet rich people tell someone who just left school thst they have to go witness the horrors of war and, let's be honest, probably die. It's literally russian r*******, but some guns have 1 bullet loaded, some have 5 chambers ready. The very thing that makes us human is simply ingored by people who don't have to deal with war 1st hand. It's easy to tell someone to go out and kill people and probably get killed too, it's a horror to actually be the one going.

I'd dodge being drafted even if it would mean I'd go to jail. I've seen war footage of Ukraine and there's nothing heroic or cool about being left barely alive in a trench covered my my own blood and guts after a drone dropped a grenade on me. There's even footage of a Russian guy who's left for dead and tries to kill himself by shooting himself in his head, he succeeds but didn't hit a vital part so his head is blown open and his brain did get damaged making him unable to properly move his limbs as he's attempting to shoot again in the end he does succeed but f***, that must be one of the worst ways to go.

I can't imagine one single nation i would be willing to die for.

Lot of armchair warriors in this post who either think they have the answer or think they’d be one of those that would fight tooth and nail.

I think that there is a fundamental difference between a draft to defend your homeland and a draft to go do some bullshit (i.e. US draft for Vietnam). I'm not advocating for telling/forcing them to go back, but asking isn't that big of a deal IMO.

It takes a lot longer to grow your population again after a war if a large number of women have been killed. States usually don't say this, but this is why nowhere ever has - and nowhere with a long-term strategy will - compulsorily draft women to combat roles. It's a horrible calculus. Edit: Apologies, a lot of people still seem to be assuming this is about polygamy, so I'm just adding this to explain. It's not - although after major conflicts the number of children born of out wedlock does rise, for a number of reasons, but states typically do not encourage it. It's more usually about various factors in monogamous relationships - particularly the menopause, which is a limitation on female fertility. For example, if a young man is killed at war, the young woman who would have married him can still marry an older man and have multiple children. Age-gap relationships noticeably grew after ww1 and ww2 as part of this phenomenon, peaking in Britain in 1921 and 1947. However, the same is not true vice-versa. If a young woman is killed at war, a young man typically cannot marry an older woman and have children, or at least as many children. As young women are already typically able to have more children than older women, the effect is compounded. As to whether this logic will hold true in 21C Ukraine, that remains to be seen. Likewise people are also correct to point out that dead young men also reduces fertility - albeit not by as much historically. I just want to reiterate that I am not condoning or denouncing it, I am just trying to explain it.

I really upset a Ukrainian lady I went to college with, she and her husband have lived here 15+ yrs now but obviously they both have family and friends back home etc She was mad that Russians were fleeing russia instead of overthrowing Putin, like how Ukraine over threw their government. Now, egg on my face, you really got no business telling people who's home is being invaded that people also have a right to flee the state doing the invading, but like, she was already living here when ukraine had its own revolution, I recognize her and her husbands right to look for safety and opportunity abroad, not like they had an individual responsibility to over throw their state or something, and I believe Russians also have a right to flee the terror-state that is Putins Russia. It's less that I don't believe they could over throw putin, it's more that I just don't think that dudes going to take flying lessons out of a window within our life times unless his own insiders turn on him, the people are to terrorized themselves by police/army, and the state openly sends opposition to die in siberia etc still, they will make quick work of any real opposition. I just see it as like, no different than supporting a womans right to escape Afghanistan, not an individual responsibility to over throw the Taliban or something. It's natural for people to flee violence if they have the opportunity, period, and I've had a safe charmed life here in Canada and really have no business telling people they can't flee. Granted I'd bet lots of the Russians who *can* leave Russia are already the wealthier types who don't face the risk of being in the war, anyways, but there's lots of regular people who probably want out, too, and I'd think every one that escapes is one less that can tote an AK I guess I just see it as, they're allowed to dip out of a dangerous country for opportunity abroad no different than she did 16+ years ago. I wouldn't expect her husband to have to uproot his life and now go fight, especially when I just consider the both of them Canadians, they have lives here now, too, and that's hardly an easy thing to do, go home and fight a war and I absolutely respect why refugees and landed migrants wouldn't want to return. I certainly know I don't want to fight a war.

There are people who voluntarily join the US armed forces, and then are unhappy with their choice, and their performance will show. I would not want to deploy with someone who never wanted to be in there in the first place. 

Thats how the founders saw things. No draft during the Revolutionary War or 1812. That was a huge overreach in their mind. I dont know exactly where I fall. I think if the country is attacked and being invaded... maybe. But then once that box is opened it cant be closed. 

What about all the people over 45? Also fair?

Ukraine is facing a potential demographic collapse, getting women of children bearing age killede would make the situation hopeless. They need a lot of babies to be born after the war. It is about survival as a people and not more lofty goals such as fairness or equality.

Yeah. All rich Ukrainians are long gone and post patriotic posts from their mansions in Barcelona or Sevilla. 

You cannot just revoke someones citizenship like that, unless they have another fully recognized one. If the men fled, they likely do not have (yet) a full citizenship in the country they are in, but only some kind of residence permit under asylum laws. Geneva Conventions disallows striping anyone of their last citizenship and leaving them without one at all.

He should start with his friends who fled Ukraine. Timur Mindich, Sergiy Shefir, Alexander Zuckerman... the list goes on His former chief of staff Andriy Yermak who resigned amid corruption charges is of draft age, but is quietly running a "consulting firm" Then he can talk about what's "fair"

Conscientious objection to military service is one of the most fundamental human rights there is and is fully backed by the UN. A persons moral and ethical right to refuse joining an armed conflict needs to be recognised here. 

I support ukraine, but your comment hits the nail on its head - the choice of your life should be your own.

Humanity has had a period of unparalleled peace post WW2. I think people have forgotten what happens to conquered nations that lose control of their destiny to a violent ambitious neighbor. If every man in every invaded country felt that way, the end result becomes obvious.

I agree, but the other side of this medal is if citizens of country don't want to protect it - it's everybody for themselves in that country, while other side keeps organizing and they will probably prevail in that case. I know that a big portion of population in Europe thinks the same and who knows what would have happened if Russia decided to attack EU countries instead of Ukraine, especially now, while Trump is US president and NATO is not a security guarantee anymore.

That is the fundamentally right way. If you do decide to forfeit it to protect your country that’s your choice but to be forced to get killed - not right.

And probably fair to say that, if your values don't align with fighting a war for your home country, it's acceptable to not spend your life, and bugger off elsewhere.

What makes you believe everybody loves their country and should be expected by default to die for it? Yes, even if we are talking about it's existence.

You live once, nothing has ever proven otherwise. Being blown up or shot or whatever is an unpleasant experience, which has been proven. Why should the geography of your birth force you to give up the single greatest asset you have? Becuase it's what, given you a passport? Edit: I'd fight for my adopted country, to preserve the way of life here, and my friends lives. But that's a personal choice.

You can conscript women.

Send Prince Andrew to the front lines. He's not much use elsewhere. 

I don’t think this ever happened, cuz the male deaths in WW2 for each country (specifically) weren’t drastic enough to warrant such decisions. However, if, for example, Germany lost 75% of its male population in the war, the government would have no choice but to allow polygamy to account for that amount of loss. A direct example of this happening was the “War of the Triple Alliance (around mid 19th century) where Paraguay lost 70% of its male population against Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay. So it had to resort to polygamy Edit: It was close to 10% apparently.

Fr everyone is so noble about duty to country until it's their body about to get blown up via drone in 4k